Vault-Tec experiments dumbest plot line ever

K

kilolima

First time out of the vault
*SPOILER WARNING* *RANT WARNING*

Does anyone else think that the idea that the vaults were a large social experiment instead of just shelters the dumbest idea ever? This was also the story in FO2, and was just as stupid there. I mean, think about it, the country is preparing for a GLOBAL NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST, and some company that won't even survive the war wants to run a science experiment?! On potential survivors that could be better utilized rebuilding the Wasteland? Who was supposed to be around to reap the benefits of the experiment?

I remember I laughed the first time I experienced the end of FO2... It's like, who wrote this brain-dead conclusion? FO1 was cool, but why did they think they had to tie it into FO2, couldn't come up with any new ideas?! And now in FO3 it's more of the same, plus a glorified plumbing job main quest!?? How exciting!

kilolima
 
fo1's main plot was one of the better plot lines ive experienced in any video game. it brought about questions on humanity and if peace was worth any price. or maybe im just the only one who read everything in the game aobut the master and tried to understand the poor hideous thing....

fo2.... well main questline was crap, honestly it was. though using the vaults as experiments DOES make sense bud. the federal govenrment(the enclave) and a good ammount of people under that umbrella survived. guess who was reaping the benifits from the experiment?

everyone agrees that fo3 was an abomination.
 
Moved to General Fallout since it wasn't fitting for Fallout 3.

I think the Vaults as social experiments has never been a popular plotline. I've certainly not loved it before, and lore-expert-in-residence Ausir has shown some dislike of the plot element as well.

Do be aware that it was not made up for Fallout 2 - that is to say, the Vault experiments were in the draft for Fallout 2 made by the original Fallout developers and has been a part of the lore since day 1.

I think that as a plot element it can work and I do see what they were going for - it is not unusual for Golden Era science fiction (which Fallout is based on, after all) to add an extra layer of human ingenuity and evil no matter how desperate the situation. You'd often find yourself think "they must be insane!" but that's human nature at its rawest - we are not pragmatists by nature, and sometimes our less than noble tendencies take over in spite of common sense.

Think Lord of the Flies. That book is gripping in part because human nature is led in so unfiltered - because the main characters are children and not adult. Their nature takes over before any kind of common sense thinking really can, much to their detriment.

I think you could do the same with the vault experiment plot but to do so they need to be more subtle. Fallout 3 actually do that better than Fallout 2, which exposes too much of it. In Fallout 3, the only side highlighted of it is the human side - the end result of what people suffered is shown rather than the intentions of the experiment, and that makes it all the more sinister.

(of course kind of ruined by the sheer lack of logic of people still being alive in the psychotic drug vault or even the cloning vault)
 
Do be aware that it was not made up for Fallout 2 - that is to say, the Vault experiments were in the draft for Fallout 2 made by the original Fallout developers and has been a part of the lore since day 1.
Click to expand...

I didn't knew that. I am quite happy that didn't make it into the first opus. In my opinion the human nature at its rawest is best shown in the decision of a leader of a small closed community, to expel the one who could challenge him and destroy the fragile balance of the vault. When aknowledging the fact that the vault is one of the only safehouse in a mad world, I truly believe the Overseer had to made this decision, and that it was the right thing to do. In fact, the first time I got expelled, I was astonished yes, but I told myself I should have known it.

The vaults experiments destroys my vision of the F1ending. And I can't make a sense of it. Even the craziest of the people has some logic, I can understand the madness leading to the destruction of the world, this is human madness as well as the struggle for power in any social group. But I can't find any truth (or human insanity) in a shadow government planing to destroy their country and the earth in order to stay in vault in order to go to mars. I can't believe that, even from republican of the 2070 of a parallel 50'world. It is just stupid, and evil in the" bouhou mi bad guy mi EVIL me eat puppie "way.
Something that the Master and the rest of the fallouts had succeed to avoid, in the contrary of many games.
I handle it as a mistake of the dev team, something as "cool" as an easter egg grown too big...
That's why I consider the Enclave as one goverment agency going rogue, with some access to vault tec data, with delusional and revisionist dirigeants.

Well, just the way I like to see it thought.
I don't know how it work sout in F3 yet. Maybe I will like it better.
 
Grayswandir said:
Do be aware that it was not made up for Fallout 2 - that is to say, the Vault experiments were in the draft for Fallout 2 made by the original Fallout developers and has been a part of the lore since day 1.
Click to expand...

I didn't knew that. I am quite happy that didn't make it into the first opus. In my opinion the human nature at its rawest is best shown in the decision of a leader of a small closed community, to expel the one who could challenge him and destroy the fragile balance of the vault. When aknowledging the fact that the vault is one of the only safehouse in a mad world, I truly believe the Overseer had to made this decision, and that it was the right thing to do. In fact, the first time I got expelled, I was astonished yes, but I told myself I should have known it.

The vaults experiments destroys my vision of the F1ending. And I can't make a sense of it. Even the craziest of the people has some logic, I can understand the madness leading to the destruction of the world, this is human madness as well as the struggle for power in any social group. But I can't find any truth (or human insanity) in a shadow government planing to destroy their country and the earth in order to stay in vault in order to go to mars. I can't believe that, even from republican of the 2070 of a parallel 50'world. It is just stupid, and evil in the" bouhou mi bad guy mi EVIL me eat puppie "way.
Something that the Master and the rest of the fallouts had succeed to avoid, in the contrary of many games.
I handle it as a mistake of the dev team, something as "cool" as an easter egg grown too big...
That's why I consider the Enclave as one goverment agency going rogue, with some access to vault tec data, with delusional and revisionist dirigeants.

Well, just the way I like to see it thought.
I don't know how it work sout in F3 yet. Maybe I will like it better.
Click to expand...

I think the FO2 'Vault Social Experiments' plot wasn't that bad either, and in some ways it fits well with the FO1 plot of ''pure'' humans, and FO2's ''Superior un-mutated humans''.

Supposing there were at least hundreds of vaults in the US, we can suppose the majority of them would be 'normal' vaults, and only a couple dozen would be 'social experiments'. At the end of the day, after the war those that survived would be the 'best humanity has to offer', and thus the best entitled to be heirs to the world. This is a darwinist view that fits in perfectly with the Enclave logic I think.

Also, you may think that this 'social experiment' was waay too evil for a even a republican government of 2070 to come up with, but don't forget even today we have conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 that is was the government that did it or at least allowed it.

Both are despicable, immoral and ultimately insane acts, but not outside the realms of possibility. I think that is the atmosphere FO2 went for.
 
as plot lines go I'm both for and against, having read some of the Fallout Bible (containing quite extensive info on the 'Vault Experiments') I kinda think its a rather lame plot for a computer game/post apocalypse rpg world. But it DOES sadly make sense.

Essentially the idea is very sound as it would allow unhindered and impartial results from any such experiments, and much less chance of self righteous protesters getting in the way of things, also under the premise that most of the world has been lain to waste it does away with the amorality issues and human rights nonsense. So as a governmental experiment its quite sound.

To some extent it does lead into the FO world as I see it, but I'd much prefer the Vaults to be shelters rather than tests. This way it (to me at least) says ok humanity, went up, up, up and finally BOOM, then those lucky enough to shelter from this are released into a harsh and unknown reality that is the wasteland world. The shelters being humanity's last remaining connection with the once glorious and prosperous past.

So I take the plot with a heavy pinch of salt and ignore it where I can.
 
I was just disappointed to see some of the weaker and more ridiculous plot elements from the earlier games (vault experiments, FEV, enclave) recycled in FO3. Were the devs too frightened about pissing off fans to come up with any new ideas? I would expect a sequel to EXPAND the game world, not retread old plots.

Once I figured out how dumb the main quest in FO3 was, I completely lost interest in ever finishing it. So now I just wander the wastes blowing stuff up. So it goes.

kilolima
 
I think the shelters were meant to be dual purpose. To save humanity, the best kind of course, ala the Dr Strangelove idea, BUT also like someone said, a few of the vaults here or there would have had different groupings there the be used as a study. The idea for the vaults would have been to save primarily the leaders and the scientists, the government and rich people.I bet that they would have put aside other vaults for testing on the ordinary people to see how things turn out as well.

I don't know...
 
I think the storyline is a lot more exciting this way than it would be if they were just shelters; actually many parts of the game would have to be redone to make them make some sense. So I like it this way.
 
I think the Vault Experiments and the FO1 ending had a big connection, but the experiment wans't the only reason. The Overseer knew that the experiment had blowed on his face (the Vault Dwellers now knew many things about the wasteland as soon as The Vault Dweller arrived with the chip) and, if he had contact with The Enclave, I'm sure they were mightly pissed with him. But it wans't the only reason.

1º I think he feared wonderlust. The Vault Dweller showed them the wasteland was crap, but frankly, with a two GECKS, a Water Chip and The Vault Dweller's experience on their side, how hard it would be to make a decent city in the surface? Expecially with the Vault Dweller's experience. Someone who came from a vault with no knowlodge of the outside world, survived the wastelands and then defeat a mutant army all by himself could easily make a durable community in the wasteland. And protect it, too. Don't forget how he's also friends with the BOS, which would mean that he could easily set up some trade between both groups. All those things would give the people confidence needed to finally have balls to go out and build something. Which brings us to the second reason:

2º The Overseer feared the Vault Dweller would find out about the experiments and/or take his position. The Vault Dweller was surely a pretty smart guy, he had gone out of the box. So, how much time until the Vault Dweller found out about the experiments? If that happened, not only there would be hell to pay (especially for The Overseer), but also it might even atract the wrath of the Enclave. It would't surprise me if the Vault Dwellers put The Vault Dweller in the Overseer's chair, too. And the Vault Dweller would probrably be less hardcore when it comes to leaving the Vault.
 
Do be aware that it was not made up for Fallout 2 - that is to say, the Vault experiments were in the draft for Fallout 2 made by the original Fallout developers and has been a part of the lore since day 1.
Click to expand...

Well, they were made up for Fallout 2, even if it was in a draft for FO2 made by the original FO1 developers. They were not part of the lore during the development of FO1.
 
Maybe there were a lot more shelters than we know about than the Vault-tec Vaults and the Enclave... enclaves.

It's a big country, who knew what else Black Isle had up its sleeve.
 
I rather liked the "social experiment" bit. Made the entire world more sinister and dark, IMO.
 
Maybe there were a lot more shelters than we know about than the Vault-tec Vaults and the Enclave... enclaves.
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Yes, this is possible. It would be quite smart to assume the governament had a shelter somewhere near DC in case of the war breaking out. Maybe some governament members (IE lower military hierarchy and everyone else not connected to the Enclave) went there as the war and the disapearance of the president took them by surprise.

Vault-Tec and the Enclave were quite connected, right? I wonder if Vault-Tec went along with the Enclave or they hid themselves in their own secret private vaults...
 
I actually found the whole matter of the Vaults as facilities for social experimentation to be fairly reasonable, especially considering the Enclave's rather sinister bent. After all, if you're going to construct a new world order out of the ashes of a post-nuclear planet (without much past history or precedent binding you and with an entire new country to build from limited resources), then the results of various large-scale long-term social experiments such as those conducted in the Vault might be quite helpful in optimizing and tweaking the desired society and dominating humankind. It also serves to make the Fallout world significantly bleaker and more oppressive (even those fortunate few who survived were little more than abused guinea pigs of the warmongers that started the apocalyptic conflict in the first place), which does help to reinforce both the underlying values/practices of the government and pre-war corporations as well as expand upon the unjustness and desperation of the game world.
 
In my opinion the Enclave (+president) and Vault Tec could have some communication with overseers of the Vaults, but with some Vaults it was cut when the bombs fell (IE Vault City, can't renember the Vaults number) and so overseers had to think on they're own what will they do next. Social experiments had to be canceled to avoid revolutions among the Vault Dwelers and Overseers getting killed.
 
I can agree that 'testing' and social engineering of the population is a viable thing for the vaults, and yes, looking back my idea of vaults = shelter + nothing else, leaves the world a little bland and limited, but FO3 seems to have Vaults that are way beyond this (drug usage, White noise / subliminal psychological 're-wireing') which over the 'whole' picture seem to be quite detrimental to the theory 'make mankind better'

So, really I'm saying sure, make testing vaults and the like, but EVERY vault seems to be a test?

Who then is to be the next generation on which the results of the 'tests' can be applied?
 
Actually, Vault City (8) worked perfectly. It opened on schedule, two years after the War, to test the effects of radiation on the occupants and their descendants. Being located near the nuclear power plant, which would be poorly maintained if not hit by missiles, guaranteed a source of background radiation. They must have retained a link to the Enclave for several years, as the design from the Enclave foyer floor is also carved on the walls above the Vault entrance.
 
Why would a secret or fascist government (apparently the state of the government before the nuclear exchange) need to run mind-control/drug/etc experiments on isolated vault populations AFTER the end of the world? I would think they would already have the draconian laws and resources (PoWs, Canadians, or other civilian rebels (there's references in the game to large-scale domestic revolts) to do all the social experiments they wanted to, without sacrificing a badly needed vault population on the altar of science...

While it does lend the game a darker side, I also dislike this as I really would like to side with the Enclave, and this plot element just makes them into black/white bad guys.

kilolima
 
So, really I'm saying sure, make testing vaults and the like, but EVERY vault seems to be a test?
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Testing particular conditions on a population for an extended period and using a population as a basis for the reconstruction of your brand of human society aren't mutually exclusive things. There are countless social conditions to experiment with and verify, but the testing itself won't necessarily or invariably destroy and corrupt the populations involved. As the Enclave re-asserted its authority, it could have exploited the future generations of various test and control groups as a part of its plans (although, of course, the plan would not have predicted the impact of airborne FEV and the Enclave's rather extreme reaction to it).

The Enclave, if memory serves, was not the entirety of the United States government. While the US of Fallout was a fairly aggressive and oppressive country from what I recall of its pre-war background, large-scale testing may still not have been a viable proposition- the Vault Project predated the annexation of Canada and many of the most internally tumultuous events in the USA, if memory serves. The Vaults themselves, however, were a perfect opportunity for the testing, both due to the isolated and concentrated conditions they naturally generated and the likelihood that there would be no one left to actually investigate and take action against the Enclave once the Vaults were actually occupied and sealed.
 
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