Wasteland 2 released!

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    I could not expect a 2d game. (as you point out)
    But I did expect a 3d game with an isometric view, with a fixed camera view, and designing the levels in accordance with the fixed view. Or the very least, all the levels are fleshed out from the starting camera view.

    Eg. I have played a lot of Dawn of War 2. The multiplayer maps are 3d and you can rotate. But you can play all the maps with the starting camera view, and the maps seems to be designed with that in mind.
    Or like Fallout Tactics that is like a borderline 3d game, the levels are 3d, but a fixed view.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  2. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    That wasn't so hard now was it? :wink:

    Anyway, I can understand what your point about it is. If you don't have a clear idea of why your characters would want to be in the rangers then it doesn't hold much attachment to you and you feel a loss of interest in pursuing what Vargas asks of you. In Fallout it was clear what the protagonist might want and feel and why (s)he would want to hunt for the waterchip. But Wasteland follows a different design philosophy regarding protagonists (I actually prefer the Fallout one) where they don't want to force you into a position you don't want to be in. Basically, it is up to the player to decide why his/her characters want to join up with the Rangers.

    Why they're there? One of my characters was the wife of a farmer who's marriage had gone sour when they found out she was barren and they slowly drifted apart. One day raiders came to the farm and in the heated argument with her husband he said that he was not going to allow them to take the only thing he had left in the world and she just knew that he no longer considered her worth a damn. He didn't care about her. So when the raiders gunned him down after he took out one with his shotgun they raided the place and left her standing over his body. With nowhere to go and with nothing to own she tagged along with caravans and traveled aimlessly until finally she ended up at Ranger Citadel. While she no longer cared for her husband she had seen first hand what could come of raiders so she enlisted in the hopes of finding meaning with her life now that childbearing was no longer an option.

    That's why she joined. The bio on the 2nd character creation screen page is there IMO for writing up a brief backstory to act as an incentive for their actions in the game. Each of my characters joined for different reasons.

    Ace isn't really important to you. He can be, but he doesn't have to be. Maybe your group starts to really believe in what they're doing after a few missions and 'then' want to investigate what happened to Ace. Maybe they just wanted to do it for Angela. Maybe they wanted to do it just out of curiosity for the Synths. Maybe they wanted to do it solely to rise in ranks and gain favor with Vargas.

    So the starting mission then. It depends completely on how you perceive your group of Rangers. My view on my current squad is that they all joined up because of various reasons, one for finding meaning, one for being a target of a caravan company, one for wanting to explore the world of tech and one because he simply likes to kill people but he wants to be in the right side when he does kill them. They just finished training and attended Ace's funeral only because Vargas had mentioned to them that he wanted to talk to them later. After the funeral they are given their first proper mission. Why would they want to go through with it? Well June does it because of a lack of better things to do. Yaheen does it because she hopes to find something high tech (and boy does she). My shotgun character (I'm bad at remembering his name...) does it out of persuasion from the rest of the group and Metal Man does it because he hopes to find something to beat to death. (Sadly, he used Hard Ass on the raiders and the Rangers got a free pass so he sullenly leaves the raiders alone at the behest of the rest of the group).

    Too much wall of text...

    Erm, my point is that Fallout has a narrative structure that influences your character directly as to why you want to go through with things because you have a singular character to play around with. It's narrative is therefor a bit limiting as it directly tells you that you have to care about the vault because you came from it which is fine for what it is aiming to do.
    In Wasteland you have 4 created characters and 3 recruitable characters which means that too much narrative restriction can severely cripple the roleplaying elements of your characters. It's open so that you can have more freedom in how you want each of your characters to behave. It's more ambiguous with it's reasons as to why you want to even care about the Rangers because otherwise it might ruin your roleplaying ideas and your backstories for your characters.

    TOO LONG : DIDN'T READ

    In a way:
    Fallout asks of you to play 'their' character.
    Wasteland asks of you to play 'your' character.
    If that makes any sense...

    It's a game where you won't be able to relate to anything if you don't create a reason for why you would want to relate to it. Maybe it's easier for me who have played Wasteland 1 as I understand where they're coming from and someone completely new to Wasteland might not know (before they create their party) what the Rangers truly are and why they are an incentive for any character to join.

    So a few reasons to relate to the Rangers:
    * They are the law, in a sense, of the wastes.
    * They are protecting communities from raiders, cults, wildlife and other problems.
    * They care about the distribution of food and water to not just a vault, but the entire known region of Arizona.
    * They are in a way a military family, and a lot of people have lost all the family they have.
    * They offer protection, education, knowledge, training, firearms, ammunition, food, water, medicine and healing to those who join.

    I'm not going to say that you are wrong in how you feel about the Rangers or it's narrative structure. I just hope that I might have shed a different light on it.



    ---------------------------------------------------------

    As a quick question on the side to others, if one of my rangers die I will recruit one of the ones sitting near the gate at Ranger Citadel right? What happens 'if' 4 rangers die (over the course of 10 hours and I recruit 1 of those three sitting there each time I return), will I be out of options then?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  3. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Good read.

    I liked the idea about having Angela Deth in your party for a long time, and getting attached to her, and that way getting into the whole Ace thing.



    "In a way:
    Fallout asks of you to play 'their' character.
    Wasteland asks of you to play 'your' character.
    If that makes any sense..."

    Maybe I understand it wrong. But I feel the opposit.
    In Fallout I can play my character, and do what I want. Yes you are from the "movie script" attached to the vault. But I feel that is just a given that you want to protect your home and it's future. Wether you just do it for yourself or the community in the vault

    In Wasteland 2 I feel like I am a long for the ride I have to follow the "movie script"

    The point where I snapped in Wasteland 2, and realised I did not like any of it. Is at the prison, and there is a barricade of sorts, with some Red Skorpions guarding it.
    I was just moving my party along and these Red Skorpions just started attacking me for no reason. I think one of them says "Rangers, shoot them" How did he know we were rangers? Did he read he script?
    What if we just happened to a group of Red Skorpions coming to say; "hey look, we look just like those rangers, maybe we could make some covert operation,"
    It comes off as some laughable B movie, where characters in the movie know things that only the viewer would know.

    In contrast to this

    In Fallout 2, you discover the secret Enclave military base Navarro. You walk up to the entrance, saying hello to this secret organization and their secret base. They dont just say "The protagonist, shoot him/her"
    Instead they say; Civilians walked into the base, someone please escort them out of here!
    If you keep doing this they will eventually shoot you. They act more like real people.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
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  4. Finesse

    Finesse Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    335
    May 2, 2005
    I think the game is great! I'm already planning another re run once i beat it. I haven't been this addicted to a game since the fallout series. I just got to the LA map. I plan on exploring every aspect of the game on my 2nd run. Kinda wish the screen auto scrolled when im running around, but its no biggie (hard to eat munchies while playing). There are some things that need improving, but all in all, im am very satisfied with this game and hope for another one! I can see some awesome mods being made for this game!
     
  5. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    You don't seem like to trying to understand WL2 for me.
    Red scorpion have their own reason to attack rangers.
    and there are some way to pass there peacefully.
     
  6. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Yes, they have introduced me to the hatred between Rangers and the Red Scorpion militia.
    But that does not explain; How did they know I was a ranger? (which I am not yet) (because they read the script)
    and why did they just start shooting? (because I triggered the aggro zone)
     
  7. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Because your character have ranger badge of course.
    rail thieves says "let's take thier badge for metal"

    with your logic, how can you deal with mutants or Enclave without knowing them at Fo1 and 2?
    because game is scripted to do that.
     
  8. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    I don't have a ranger badge, I am not even a ranger yet. I don't even have a uniform.

    Yes, I would not know anything about any super mutants in Fallout, if I don't meet one(or speak to somone that know about them). What?
    -=- What?
     
  9. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    I don't have vault suit in inventory but with wear it at Fallout 1 and 2 isn't it?
    it's like vault suit, your all rangers have their own badges even before became real ranger.

    as far as I see, what you criticizing is just for niggling WL2 because it's not like Fallout 1.

    I can't prevent Enclaves to attack village because it's scripted.
    even they didn't attacked, they told to be attacked by mutants because it's scripted.
    so what? is that makes Fo1,2 bad? I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  10. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    In Fallout you clearly see yourself running around in a bright blue vault uniform.
    In Fallout 2 you start out with no vault uniform. And after the tutorial you see a nice cutscene showing the room you just walked into, and there is a vault uniform.
    You then return to the game and your character is wearing a bright blue vault uniform.

    I have no idea what your point is.
     
  11. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    And what is your point?
    your just trolling with WL2 because it's nothing like Fallout 1
     
  12. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    That did not make your point any more clear.


    If you bothered to read anything, you would find out, that
    I am very disappointed about Wasteland 2 (I did not want ANOTHER Fallout, I wanted something new and exciting)
    I am disappointed about things like; confused tone, atmosphere, lack of investment in the events that are unfolding before you. Constant 4th wall breaking giving no chance for immersion. NPCs got a case of "did you read the script?".
    And that Mr Fish have some interesting insight.


    So please tell me what your point about vault uniforms and lack of ranger uniforms is about
    And please show me where I am trolling.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  13. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Because you seems not even beat Arizona.
    Arizona's main quest is actually linear while each community has awesome nonlinear quests.
    but after Arizona... well?

    and flaws that you pointing out are actually not flaw or minor points.
    motivation? you are just a part of army, following order is nothing wrong.
    of course, waterchip time limit of Fallout 1 is really awesome.
    but that doesn't make WL2 bad because either Fallout 2 or Arcanum has time limit or something for finishing game.

    RMS attacks? you have something make people of Arizona indentifying you as a Ranger.(that meanas at outside of Arizona, not much people indentifies you as a Ranger.)
    you can't see them but that doesn't mean they don't have badge or something.

    and your logic of criticizing WL2 is depends on Fallout 1.
    and that's the reason why I said you are criticizing WL2 because it's not like Fallout 1.

    and for trolling, I consider you are doing trolling because what you pointing out is not a big deal at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  14. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    That still does not make your point any more clear.

    We are not discussing anything about Arizona.

    What is your point about vault uniforms and missing ranger uniforms? And what does Arizona have to do with that?
    Show me where I am trolling.
     
  15. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    A quick note about the Ranger uniform and badge thingie.
    Rangers don't have uniforms from what I understand, they have badges.
    The reason why you don't have a badge in your inventory is because it'd be irrelevant to the inventory as there is no function in taking it off in the first place (except to disguise yourself, perhaps they made a design decision to cut that as a feature as it'd make a lot of interaction overly complicated.) But since everyone and their mother recognizes you as Rangers it is clear that they must know it somehow and the most iconic thing would be the badge. As to how everyone knows that 'that' is the mark of a Ranger? The world of Fallout is a lot less limited as it does not have radiation clouds that are near impassible. In Wasteland the world is limited to pockets of radiation free zones. The zone that the Rangers live in has had Rangers as an established major faction for decades and people like spread the word of how a Ranger is recognized or they've seen a Ranger at some point in their life. Most hostile NPC's don't activate combat until you are within a reasonable distance of like 20 meters or something and at 20 meters the Ranger badge would be easily spotted since (as far as I can tell) it isn't a tiny little button.

    A lot of the hostile factions have reasons for loathing the Rangers anyway, and some of them will initiate combat when you enter their inner area but will initiate dialogue if you encounter them at their "toll". RSM for example can be interacted with peacefully (although I don't know for how long) if you meet them by the frontline. If you however sneak around that and stroll into their inner areas without being allowed to they will think of the Rangers as hostiles since they haven't been given clearance to enter said area.

    In Fallout no one really knows who you are and a lot of them don't give a shit. In Wasteland your party (for whatever reasons) have decided to join a well-known major faction of the Arizona radiation free pocket zone and wear badges to mark their alleigance(?).

    As to why it would make interaction with NPC's overly complicated to remove the badges and go in covert:
    Imagine you talk to an NPC with a badge.
    Now imagine you talk to an NPC without a badge.
    Now imagine you talk to the NPC you talked to without a badge but this time you return with it on, would their dialogue reference that?
    What if you did a quest for someone without the badge? What if you returned with the badge on?
    What if you enter a high tension area that with a badge would make NPC's more likely to hear you out but without it they are now very aggressive because of whatever high tension is going on?

    Personally, I would have loved to have the ability to disguise my party and go even further and disguise them in opposing faction armor to hide in plain sight but what we want and what is actually feasible in the long run for InXile to design are two different things. Maybe one could make up some head-canon that Vargas will not give out promotions if his Rangers remove the badges as the people of the wastes need to know who the Rangers are and the player party chooses to keep them on and make them visible for the sake of earning promotions. Either way, they are wearing badges which cannot be taken off by the player as there is no gameplay benefit to it so that option is remove in the menu. That makes the most sense.

    That's my 2 cents on it.
     
  16. Finesse

    Finesse Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    335
    May 2, 2005
    Going in la, get ambushed by robots on fist place i go, barely survive using all means necessary!... go forth into unknown.. after i kill some cybernetics hording cows, i get message... come back to base. come back and finally can get a grip on some weapons! This game isnt easy, and i love it
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  17. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    I hear you.

    It would be cool if they had put the ranger star on the character model, instead I have to be TOLD about it.
    I think there is an expression saying "Show don't tell"
    I can understand it would be more complicated and take a lot more time to develop dialog and scenarios for you being disguised and you as being a ranger openly.


    And would I have a ranger star even though I am just an aspiring ranger?
    How much or how little do you have to do, to get a ranger star?


    On a dry technical sitenote, something like a ranger star, would be considered a uniform today. : )
     
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  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    And that is some kind of surprise? What do you honestly expect, that the whole forum comes runing in telling you how "wrong" you are by saying that you like the game or that it is good? Maybe its the wrong forum for you then ...

    But again, no one here will be attacked for his opinion. But you have to give people something to work with in the first place, dont make it sound like its just pure hate, try to get some experience with the game and tell us what you dont like.

    *Edit
    See, you said what you dont like about the game and people discuss it :), this community can be sometimes hostile, but if you stick around for some time people will be a lot more friendly and you would be surprised how diverse the opinions here can be. Hell, there can be no doubt about the fact that a lot of the forum users love fallout, but you will find all sorts of opinions about, best example, New Reno many like the quests and town, but feel that it doesnt fit Fallout, and thus criticize it for it.

    Just try not to say only "I hate all of it", because that makes you look simply like a troll.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
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  19. zamppe

    zamppe First time out of the vault

    25
    Jan 24, 2007
    Did you try pressing 'T' ?
     
  20. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    Well, if they are going to do post-release support in terms of content I don't think it'd be too difficult for them to create a 3d model of a Ranger Star and just glue it onto all the torso models available so they really should add it to them.

    I think they actually are Rangers by this point. Like, they have finished their training and all that jazz and been given badges but are required to do one more thing before they've proven themselves. My guess is that the reason that Vargas gave the recruits the badges is because whatever they decide to do the Rangers should be held responsible, so if they went out, fucked up severely and Vargas decided against them becoming full members then he wouldn't want the rest of the wasteland to think of him as trying to hide away the truth of his recruitment process in case whatever your party fucked up slipped out.

    Basically, no matter what they do for the first assignment, no matter how horrible the recruits are, Vargas will not hide the truth from the wastelanders. He wants what you do to be out in the open. Transparency.

    So, yeah, I think they're given the stars right before they're given one last mission to prove themselves.

    Then if they take the star and run for the hills and just did all that jazz to get the star so that they could deceive people and ruin the Rangers' reputation I guess Vargas would just send that hit-squad he has after them.