Well, I'm replaying Fallout 1 now thanks to you

[Parovoz_NFF]

Which is strange because I like Annah and Falls from Grace.

Sorry, but what are you talking about?

Spoiler: Well

When you play as a male courier, and helped her to revenge, and choose to support NCR at the end, the ending kinda suggest Cass raped the courier while still he still drunk though.

No, ending suggests that she WANTED to do that, but - sorry, Cass, but the Courier is in another tent.

 

[CT Phipps]

Sorry, but what are you talking about?

Planescape: Torment.

Effectively, Chris Avellone's magnum opus and where he wrote two love interests.

 

[Parovoz_NFF]

Planescape: Torment.

Effectively, Chris Avellone's magnum opus and where he wrote two love interests.

I've never plyed it because i hate D&D and Infinity engine with a passion, but you confuse Avellone and Sawyer.

 

[CT Phipps]

I've never plyed it because i hate D&D and Infinity engine with a passion, but you confuse Avellone and Sawyer.

No, Sawyer writes Honest Hearts style meditations on emotion, patriotism, and friendship. Icewind Dale, Alpha Protocol, and so on.

Avellone writes dark Nieztschean stories. Torment, KOTOR 2, and so on.

 

[Parovoz_NFF]

No, Sawyer writes Honest Hearts style meditations on emotion, patriotism, and friendship. Icewind Dale, Alpha Protocol, and so on.

Avellone writes dark Nieztschean stories. Torment, KOTOR 2, and so on.

Then it is me who confusing them, because i honestly thought that you are talking about https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=953 .

 

[CT Phipps]

Oh, BOTH hate romances.

http://gameranx.com/features/id/10388/article/an-interview-with-chris-avellone-on-project-eternity/

You've stated in the past that you don't like romances in games—at least to the extent that they've been done in games thus far. Were you to implement a romance subplot in Project Eternity, what would it involve?

Not a big fan of romances. I did four in Alpha Protocol because Chris Parker, our project director, demanded it because he thinks romance apparently is easy, or MAYBE it’s because he wanted to be an asshole and give me tons of them to do because I LOVE them so much (although to be honest, I think he felt it was more in keeping with the spy genre to have so many romances, even if I did ask to downscope them). At least I got to do the “hatemance” version of most of them, which makes it a little more palatable.

Also, the only reason the romance bits in Mask of the Betrayer worked was because George Ziets helped me with them since he was able to describe what love is to me and explain how it works (I almost asked for a PowerPoint presentation). It seems like a messy, complicated process, not unlike a waterbirth. Don’t even get me started on the kissing aspects, which is revolting because people EAT with their mouths. Bleh.

So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity – I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise. Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love… specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after.

 

[CT Phipps]

perhaps that's why i've had a distaste for his work. not to say it's poor quality, but it's not my style—the thematic elements fall short on me (such as F:NV DLC's message of "letting go"; non-issue, imo). the correlation to Nietzsche helped me understand.

you know, i find it hard to believe that Nietzsche took inspiration from Doestoyevsky.

I take the view the vast majority of people fuck up Nietzsche when they try to write him. Nieztsche says that people need to be MORE moral in a morally empty universe. Most people think he said you should be less. I think it worked in KOTOR2 when you played Saint Exile but it's a weird universe to try to make a Nietzsche statement when God is objectively real and pantheist.

I'd like to discuss the "non issue" of letting go because I always felt that was a weird lesson in Fallout: New Vegas and not one I necessarily agreed with.

 

[Jogre]

Why in the world would it be canon with an isometric tactical series by a different company? Fallout 3 isn't canon to the main series either.

Erm, you do realise that the team who developed New Vegas has more in common with Interplay, then it does with Bethesda right?

Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky are two of the most famous team-members from Fallout 1, and also worked on New Vegas.

Obsidian aren't the same company, but they are pretty fucking close.

Fallout: New Vegas, by contrast, is very much like Fallout 3 in its themes as it's focused on the past. Old World Blues, Dead Money, Honest Hearts, and Lonesome Road are all about the fact people can't move on from the past.

Honest Hearts and Lonesome Road aren't about pre-war past, but instead recent history(Joshua Graham is bitter about his betrayal to Caesar, Ulsyess about The Divide). Yes Ulsyess has an obsession with pre-war america, but as a more symbolic thing as it was the past that saved his life, he in no way idolizes it, nor does he genuinely care about it. Since these DLCs are focused on recent history, which it makes sense for people to remember and be bitter about, I think it fits in perfectly with classical fallout.

As for Dead Money and Old World Blues, neither of them are too focused the post-war world. Yes there is that whole "Old World Blues" saying, but that seems more like shit people say more than actual longing and sorrow. Dean Domino in no way idolizes the past, instead he's just gotten obsessed with cracking open the Sierra Madre and doesn't realize how long it's been, and the Think Tank don't even remember the pre-war world.

There's also a mourning of the Old World which doesn't exist in F1 and F2

Not Really. Nobody in the game ever really references the pre-war world, or what it was like, nor have I ever come across a character who felt pity for it. Hell, I would argue most people are ignorant about it(Apart from Arcade Ganon)

The only people who really show any admiration for the pre-war world are the NCR, who occasionaly graffiti shit like "America has returned", but that's understandable, since they as a faction are trying to achieve what America did.

Mister House exists as a living ghost of the Pre-War America only he is a demigod of science/A Lich of WondersTM who better fits the pseudo-1950s world created by Bethesda than the fascist America of the Pre-War world. Certainly, he was a rich and powerful demagogue living in a tourism city when most people were close to starvation.

There's nothing saying you can't be a successful businessman and science-lich in a fascist society.

There's also minor continuity issues too like the fact Tycho in Fallout 1 clearly comes from a pseudo-Wasteland Mojave which is completely absent from Fallout: New Vegas. There's a nod to them that they were absorbed into NCR but there's really no reason for NCR not to have annexed the Mojave by now.

Tycho never really mentions much about where he's from, other than that there is a faction called the Desert Rangers looking after it, which already existed in FONV(Were absorbed by NCR Rangers like you said)

but there's really no reason for NCR not to have annexed the Mojave by now

Well there are already people living in the Mojave independent of the NCR, and before Caesar's Legion, they didn't really have an excuse to forcibly annex them.

They did attempt to make colonies but due to weak leadership often lost them to tribals.

They've been expanding to the North, and trying to deal with lots of new territory up there.

They have lots of valid reasons to not need to annex the mojave.

Likewise, Las Vegas is a city which can't exist without infrastructure so it wouldn't have existed without someone like Mister House to create it and he's unconscious for a century.

But that's the thing, it didn't exist.

Vegas was completely abandoned, other than a few tribes that occasionally hunted/lived around the ruins. Before Mr House there was no Vegas. I don't get how this is inconsistent.

Wasteland>>>Wasteland 2>>>Fallout>>>Fallout 2

Wasteland and Fallout can't really exist in the same universe doe.

In Wasteland the Great War happened in 1998, whereas in Fallout it happened in 2077.

Not to mention the levels of technology are rapidly different. Fallout had basic and simplistic robots, with the few AIs that exist being the size of rooms, whereas Wasteland had fully functioning Androids before the war.

Also sources of mutation are very different.

I could mention lots more, but you probably get the point.

 

[FalloutIsMyDrug]

The real reason not to annex the Mojave:

 

[CT Phipps]

Nieztsche's opinions on women suck, yes. It's one of the things I bring up in my talks about Lovecraft. "I love his writing, think the man had some reprehensible ideas."

The "Old World Blues" phenomena is something i found odd; it felt forced. i suppose it could apply to the major factions of F:NV, but i don't think it's an issue the common person in Fallout struggles with, or the PC. in the earlier games it wouldn't have even been an issue to begin with, because the focus was never on the trappings of the Old World.

This is an unpopular opinion, but i wasn't a fan of the New Vegas DLCs. OWB in particular—i just couldn't get invested. i also felt the dialogue was unfunny, too hamfisted for my liking. just my onion though.

Yeah, what I think Bethesda did a great job w/ Fallout 3 and New Vegas followed up on was highlighting as bad as the Pre-War world was, there was a lot of personal tragedy to it. There were things worth saving and ideas worth preserving. Whereas it's more or less a blank slate after the war in the original games, New Reno aside.

And yes, this means Obsidian Bethesda's own themes better than Bethesda.

Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky are two of the most famous team-members from Fallout 1, and also worked on New Vegas.

Yes, and I'm glad they got to work on it. I think they did a better job with the Bethesda interpretation of the world than Bethesda did. It's like Peter Cullen doing Optimus Prime for the movies versus the original cartoon. It's wonderful to get the original creator to visit a new interpretation of his work and add their touches.

Tim Cain is a class act and I wish he'd get a chance to do another game in his baby. Like Kojima and MGS, nobody does it better. Chris and Joshua Sawyer are about the only people who can also do it as good.

Honest Hearts and Lonesome Road aren't about pre-war past, but instead recent history(Joshua Graham is bitter about his betrayal to Caesar, Ulsyess about The Divide). Yes Ulsyess has an obsession with pre-war america, but as a more symbolic thing as it was the past that saved his life, he in no way idolizes it, nor does he genuinely care about it. Since these DLCs are focused on recent history, which it makes sense for people to remember and be bitter about, I think it fits in perfectly with classical fallout.

Honest Hearts is a reflection on things like Pre-War Religion, Tribalism, and the past in general. But in LR's case, Ulysses is Chris Avellone's mouthpiece for how the Old World obsession is the antithesis of Fallout. How NCR, CL, and House are all failures because they look to the past for inspiration instead of the future.

As for Dead Money and Old World Blues, neither of them are too focused the post-war world. Yes there is that whole "Old World Blues" saying, but that seems more like shit people say more than actual longing and sorrow. Dean Domino in no way idolizes the past, instead he's just gotten obsessed with cracking open the Sierra Madre and doesn't realize how long it's been, and the Think Tank don't even remember the pre-war world.

Dead Money is all about the curse of the Sierra Madre as an embodiment of the fortunes of the Pre-War World.

Think Tank is all about the neuroses of the Think Tank personnel from their living days. I mean, you literally go to the high school of one doctor.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

The real reason not to annex the Mojave:

It's literally Hunter in Spanish.

 

[CT Phipps]

Fallout Thoughts 5#

+ My character proceeds to take the Water Chip back to Vault 13, which is a surprisingly swift resolution to his epic quest! Nope, nothing more to do or say here. Time to go repair the Vault's Water Purifier and go back to living my ordinary humdrum day as a BADASS ASSASSIN WHO SNEAKS OUT AT NIGHT.

+ While present in the Vault, I talk to a bunch of rebels who plan to deal with the Overseer but I express my great confidence in his wisdom and generosity. Honestly, as much as my character loves sleeping with Wasteland hookers and killing people, he's pretty sure Vault 13 is a much better place to live than anywhere else.

+ Where I criticize Bethesda: I will say that I do think one of the big mistakes is where they tend to treat the Vault Dwellers as never really building anything outside of their Vaults. I like the Vaults and their aethstetic so I really enjoyed visiting Fallout 4's Vault 81. I also enjoyed the fact I could live there.

It's where I would choose to raise any future children. But yes, Fallout 4 could have used a Vault City or more "living" Vaults.

+ I find the water thief, which seems like it is a more difficult task than it should be. Either way, they should be drained of their blood to feed the other Vault members.

+ I proceed to give the Water Chip to the Overseer who actually seems upset that he has to send me back out after I give my report on Super Mutants. I do note that Fallout 1 isn't PERFECT in its options since the choices you're given to stop the Super Mutant thread amount to, "Yes" or "Very much so, yes."

+ Anyway, I head over to Shady Sands and discover TANDI HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED! Worse, Seth is dating her! YOU BASTARD! TANDI IS JACOB'S GIRL! He saw her second! Anyway, I go to confront Aradesh who says three patrols have gone missing, which I really hope means they haven't found her rather than they've been wiped out.

+ The Great Khans: I give credit to Fallout for including my favorite faction of all time in RAIDERS. I love me some Raiders and Nuka World is awesome for allowing me to at last join them and rule the Wasteland as an evil god. People said that Caesar's Legion gave you the option to be an "evil" faction but Caesar is the force of Fascism and Order whereas I believe in Chaos and that some day we will END people like him, trying to civilize mankind's primal nature.

And good riddance!

:pause:

Um....forget I said that.

+ Alas, Garl is a misogynist asshole and that's not really the kind of Raider boss I want to be. As tempting as it would be to murder the Great Khan leader, I'm not interested in murdering his sex slaves or really tolerating that sort of stuff. So, unfortunately, the Great Khans must go and I remove one of the beautiful gangs of thieves and murderers which I so cherish.

Which requires murder, murder, and more murder.

Notably, I could talk them down for Tandi but no, sadly, to rescue the slaves I have to slaughter you all.

Fare ye well....IN HELL.

 

[Jogre]

Honest Hearts is a reflection on things like Pre-War Religion

There's nothing saying pre-war religion can't effect the Cainverse.

Hell, there's a (supposedly) catholic church in New Reno. Plus I'm guessing Modoc is probably a Christian community, given that they have a big church.

How NCR, CL, and House are all failures because they look to the past for inspiration instead of the future.

NCR always looked to the past for inspiration. They even had pre-war US Flags flying above Shady Sands in FO2.

However, at the same time they were willing to embrace new world ideas.

I think New Vegas's presentation of the NCR is pretty much identical to Fallout 2s presentation.

As for House, yeah he's obsessed with restoring the world to the way it was before the war, but so were the Enclave to a degree. He's not unique in that regard.

As for Legion, there use of the past for inspiration isn't the same kind of thing as the Bethesdaverse presents(obsession over pre-war world), so much as Caesar chose it because he thought it'd work. He explains in the game that the reason he based Legion off of the Roman Empire is because the tactics/training/hierarchy of the Roman Army would be the best way to create troops capable of policing over the wasteland, and that the idea of the Roman Empire is so alien to the people of the Wasteland, that they won't recognize the historical inspiration behind them.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Hell, there's a (supposedly) catholic church in New Reno.

Yeah, but the priest is just a drunken wreck passing off rumours to everybody.

 

[CT Phipps]

Yeah, but the priest is just a drunken wreck passing off rumours to everybody.

It's also a strange Catholic Church if it's primary purpose is giving divorces.

 

[Dr Fallout]

It's also a strange Catholic Church if it's primary purpose is giving divorces.

Yeah well, what can you do when you're drunk and insane?

 

[CT Phipps]

Yeah well, what can you do when you're drunk and insane?

Well, you'd be a drunk too if you had proof you're a video game character.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Well, you'd be a drunk too if you had proof you're a video game character.

He's washing away his sorrows.

 

[CT Phipps]

Fallout Thoughts 6#

+ Yeah, yeah, I'm late as hell. I know.

+ I'm going to skip the Underground quests because I really don't want to be one of the bad guys this playthrough. I admit, however, that I am tempted to go in and murder Decker. That would require intimate knowledge of the universe my character doesn't have, though.

Instead, I'm going off to the Brotherhood of Steel.

+ I think the Brotherhood of Steel is the most interesting creation of Fallout 1 and there's a reason it became the Ensemble Darkhorse of the franchise. Because, really, it's been in every game even when there's absolutely no reason for it like Fallout 2. Power-armor is awesome and I think appealed to everyone's inner desire to be Space Marines even though they're (almost) completely divorced from the main plot.

I think it's a combination of their history and competence as well as raw power in a Wasteland which is struggling to get by.

+ I'm doing a completitionist walkthrough but I should mention I usually skip the BOS whenever possible because I don't actually really like the organization for my RP. I don't see my protagonist, Jacob, really wanting anything to do with a bunch of isolationist weirdos let alone decide to join their creepy cult of Machine WorshipTM.

Which is part of the things I wish could be skipped in Fallout. Basically, I'd like to see the PCs stop being recruited by the BOS because they've become something of a millstone around the franchise's neck. As much as I love the BoS, bottlecaps, and Dogmeat--they aren't necessary.

Fine, I admitted it @JO'Geran are you happy?

+ The Brotherhood of Steel is a fun group in Fallout 1 but I don't think they're actually as isolationist as everyone seems to think. After all, they give you the quest to find something in the Glow then abide by their word without much in the way of surprise. I do like it's the equivalent of a snipe hunt that any rationale person will just let die, though.

+ In any case, visiting the Glow has its benefits even as I amped my radiation resistance up to 100% in order to take much of the fun out of it. It's full of Robo-Brains and works perfectly as a dungeon full of TERRIBLE SECRETS.

+ It's here we meet the ZAX unit and discover the first true artificial intelligence in the setting. The thing is, a lot of people argue that the only thing which is capable of being an AI in the setting are the ZAX units but I'm not so sure.

Yes, they're building-sized AI but the fact is they're also AI which possess godlike intelligence. I'm not sure it's so impossible for smaller units to be sentient if they don't have the same level of super-analysis. Besides, it's more like a woodshed sized A.I.

+ Exploring the Glow, we get a bunch of data about the backstory of the Brotherhood of Steel as well as their failed expedition to the place. Basically, the BoS was a group of American soldiers who were guarding the West-Tek research facility here (which developed Power Armor and the FEV virus) which, as we'll learn, eventually relocated to Mariposa military base where the Nazi-esque experiments of the US Government were being conducted. Moral plummeted, suicide of the Colonel in charge, and so on led to Maxson abandoning Mariposa and creating the BOS.

I find it interesting West-Tek is completely absent from Bethesda Fallout lore. You'd think they'd be all over the organization given it's involvement in such pivotal events in the franchise's history.

+ Also, why was THIS place of all places in the Fallout universe hit directly with a nuclear bomb? The insidiousness of Red Chinese aggression knows no bounds! I will note I think the fact this is where FEV was exposed to the atmosphere is an interesting twist as it does explain why the Enclave thinks all of humanity is a bunch of stinking MUTANTS.

FEV has some terrifying implications all round and you don't want your humans to be full of it (albeit, I don't think they ever mentioned FEV as a reason--just radiation).

In any case, I get what I need from the mainframe and head back.

 

[valcik]

Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky are two of the most famous team-members from Fallout 1, and also worked on New Vegas.

Both Cain and Boyarsky have joined Obsidian after FNV was released though. None of the original Fallout designers worked on FNV, since MCA refused invitation from Cain to work on F1 and joined F2 team later.