Well, I'm replaying Fallout 1 now thanks to you

Except Tales from the Borderlands is marketed as a spin off. Fallout 3 and 4 are marketed as sequels.
Besides, they did not rehash almost all player characters from previous installments, like BL2 and the Pre-Sequel.
They expanded on the universe and gave an end to
Hyperion, Helios and Hansome Jack, who were cool but started to drag on. Oh and Scooter, it was coming for him already
The situations were pretty interesting when not thinking about the fixed outcome, nice environments and that sweet soundtrack.
It appealed to all what I like about Borderlands, and I hope something stays for Bl3.
 
Wow, you played Fallout 2 like shit man. My Super Mutants, Ghouls, and Humans all mine uranium together until it plays out. Then again, I also ended the Slavers in the Hub, the Shi are building plants which eat radiation, and New Reno is run by the Clampets rather than the Corelones.

Well, actually, no the Clampets get overrun by my bastard child but that sort of thing happens.

:)
What can I say, my guy usually supports the bad guys (NOT ENCLAVE BAD... more Legion bad). Also it goes to show how worse the world can be in Fallout 2. Oh by the way, did I mention that Vault City collapses if the player does nothing, and that the Ghouls of Gecko are also killed? Also, Modoc starves if you don't visit it, also the Den becomes slaver central AS LONG as Big Jesus Mordino and Metzger is alive (never visit Reno and the Den and yep, slaver town). And also Mordino come at top in a tie (never visiting Reno) meaning that drugs keep on flowing and the sin city never stops. Redding gets deserted if you don't do anything and if you do nothing in Broken Hills... woops, civil war! Vault 15 also ends up deserted if nothing is done... and only the Shi, the fucking Shi get well if nothing happens.

Just goes to show that by default, the wasteland of Fallout 2 is screwed.
 
What can I say, my guy usually supports the bad guys (NOT ENCLAVE BAD... more Legion bad). Also it goes to show how worse the world can be in Fallout 2. Oh by the way, did I mention that Vault City collapses if the player does nothing, and that the Ghouls of Gecko are also killed? Also, Modoc starves if you don't visit it, also the Den becomes slaver central AS LONG as Big Jesus Mordino and Metzger is alive (never visit Reno and the Den and yep, slaver town). And also Mordino come at top in a tie (never visiting Reno) meaning that drugs keep on flowing and the sin city never stops. Redding gets deserted if you don't do anything and if you do nothing in Broken Hills... woops, civil war! Vault 15 also ends up deserted if nothing is done... and only the Shi, the fucking Shi get well if nothing happens.

Just goes to show that by default, the wasteland of Fallout 2 is screwed.

This is true but the ultimate point of F2 is to improve the world, at least from my end, and you CAN. However, the situation in the Bethesda games invariably goes to shit no matter what you do. NCR as we see, is no longer the good force the original games had it be (annexation plans against Vault City aside--since they're dicks). The Brotherhood of Steel becomes a twisted reflection of its Lyrons era self.

And we also see how the achievements of the Sole Survivor can also go horribly wrong.

But yeah, the freedom of choice means that the Good Karma choices are optional even if canonical.

So there's no such 'Cain' vision, well there is but it's certainly not a hopeful one.


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This is true but the ultimate point of F2 is to improve the world, at least from my end, and you CAN. However, the situation in the Bethesda games invariably goes to shit no matter what you do. NCR as we see, is no longer the good force the original games had it be (annexation plans against Vault City aside--since they're dicks). The Brotherhood of Steel becomes a twisted reflection of its Lyrons era self.

And we also see how the achievements of the Sole Survivor can also go horribly wrong.

But yeah, the freedom of choice means that the Good Karma choices are optional even if canonical.




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1. That's false, Fallout 3 has a positive ending if you do the good ending and have good karma.
2. That's not Bethesda's game that's Obsidians and several of them worked on the original game so they have a good idea of the true Fallout spirit.
3. That's the only forced example of a good ending. Everything else has either a default bad one or... many more bad endings that can be chosen!
 
1. That's false, Fallout 3 has a positive ending if you do the good ending and have good karma.
2. That's not Bethesda's game that's Obsidians and several of them worked on the original game so they have a good idea of the true Fallout spirit.
3. That's the only forced example of a good ending. Everything else has either a default bad one or... many more bad endings that can be chosen!

1. Which they have since retconned. I also pointed out it was a less positive ending than they intended since you were supposed to die. Also, Elder Lyons is kind of a dick.
2. Yes, and Chris Avellone talks about the fundamentally flawed and pessimistic nature of the world described in the game.
3. Which would matter more if the Good endings weren't canonical.

Fundamentally, we see humanity is rebuilding and getting better in an appreciable way in Fallout 1 and 2. Which is not happening in the Bethesdaverse.
 
1. Which they have since retconned. I also pointed out it was a less positive ending than they intended since you were supposed to die. Also, Elder Lyons is kind of a dick.
2. Yes, and Chris Avellone talks about the fundamentally flawed and pessimistic nature of the world described in the game.
3. Which would matter more if the Good endings weren't canonical.

Fundamentally, we see humanity is rebuilding and getting better in an appreciable way in Fallout 1 and 2. Which is not happening in the Bethesdaverse.
1. But the term itself
However, the situation in the Bethesda games invariably goes to shit no matter what you do
is false. This is connected how?
2. Great, so what the hell are you talking about when saying that Fallout 1 and 2 are more happier and better?
3. That was only confirmed in New Vegas which according to you is a Bethesda game and hence has to have a pessimistic result.
 
I'm now genuinely confused.

Then again, I'm in a weird parallel universe where someone is complaining about the fact I'm saying Bethesda games have a darker view of humanity when everyone else I've talked to on the forum thinks humans should have rebuilt by 200 years later.
 
I'm now genuinely confused.

Then again, I'm in a weird parallel universe where someone is complaining about the fact I'm saying Bethesda games have a darker view of humanity when everyone else I've talked to on the forum thinks humans should have rebuilt by 200 years later.
You said that Bethesda was pessimistic and the originals weren't yet... that's bullshit. The originals are just as dark but not in a stupidly melodramatic way. I do admit, I have to be much clearer in what I say.

Humans have expanded massively since the medieval ages yet we still fight, die and have more self destructive capability. You don't have to do the obvious dramatic 'IT LOOKS LIKE MAD MAX, SO IT'S SHITE', which is childish and poor. You can do rebuilding and have the pessimism be more subtle and less upfront.
 
You said that Bethesda was pessimistic and the originals weren't yet... that's bullshit. The originals are just as dark but not in a stupidly melodramatic way. I do admit, I have to be much clearer in what I say.

Okay, sure, if you say so. I could just be reading into it. I still think New Vegas is in the Bethesdaverse versus the Cainverse as it reflects very much on the themes of Fallout 3 as much as the new games.

Just better, I think.
 
Okay, sure, if you say so. I could just be reading into it. I still think New Vegas is in the Bethesdaverse versus the Cainverse as it reflects very much on the themes of Fallout 3 as much as the new games.

Just better, I think.
You've failed to convince me or even explain how. New Vegas has good endings and so does Fallout 2, but both have a lot more bad endings (I think, Fallout 2 has more probably). What themes?

What is better?
 
Fallout 1 and 2 are pessimistic about the human nature, but optimistic about the human actions. It makes a clear distinction between what we are and what we do. Joshua Graham is the perfect example of the man who tries to find what's gonna be judged about him, what he is, or what he does.
War never changes, by nature.
Men change, by their actions.

The vault dweller changes, up to the point his own people won't recognize him anymore. The choosen one goes from a ignorant tribal to an actual, civilized savior. The courier goes from having no past to a man which deals with his own past while settling the future of others.
It's all quite a continuity of the thematic Chris Avellone explored with Planescape Torment. What can change the nature of a man ?
Fallout seems to answer : home. Finding or building a sanctuary seems to be the answer, always. Could be the road leading up to home too, though, but the finality is always something in that spirit.

Fallout 3 has a more catholic approach. You have to perform self-sacrifice and give, freely, without expecting anything in return, in order to accomplish yourself. The game actually insults you if you don't give your life for others, even if you could easily find another way (send Fawkes, for pete's sake). Quite a holistic approach, hence the "white knight" brotherhood and the railroad, which is presented as a christian underground movement. Kind of falls flat when you realize that the reason why you sacrifice yourself is utterly useless, as the capital wasteland never needed the water purifier in the first place and will still be plagued by war and horror, but anyway.
The thing that bothers me about Bethesda's fallouts is how humanity is presented as utterly incompetent when it comes to basic survival and rebuilding civilizations. Realistically, rebuilding is what we do the best, and there are countless examples in history to back it. We rock when it comes to repair, and we help each other when doing so. It's always cringy to hear peasants complaining about "Farming is hard, with all dis raiders around!" when there has been two entire centuries to advance in agricultural technologies and securing the land with the rule of law.
 
Non-Broken Steel Fallout 3's ending is shit so I have no argument with you there.

The thing that bothers me about Bethesda's fallouts is how humanity is presented as utterly incompetent when it comes to basic survival and rebuilding civilizations. Realistically, rebuilding is what we do the best, and there are countless examples in history to back it. We rock when it comes to repair, and we help each other when doing so. It's always cringy to hear peasants complaining about "Farming is hard, with all dis raiders around!" when there has been two entire centuries to advance in agricultural technologies and securing the land with the rule of law.

History is a more chaotic organism than that as while humanity has bounced back from numerous disasters, we also have quite impressive gaps in terms of discovering and losing technological as well as social advantages. Aristotle, for example, knew how octopus reproduce and had a surprisingly capable zoological knowledge which was lost or ignored until the 19th century.

High Islamic culture was effectively destroyed by Tamerlane and his Mongol Horde with rebuilding eventually occurring but taking centuries. Carthage never recovered and Libyan civilization took a dramatically different turn. While the "Dark Ages" is a misnomer, it's interesting to look at Rome specifically as a historical location and you get something which actually looks like Fallout in some ways as people used the same aqueducts and locations built until they crumbled to uselessness with no ability to rebuild them (or more precisely, no funds).

Also, the Rule of Law is the exception rather than the rule in most parts of the world. Feudalism was a protection racket which existed on the social contract of, "I'd rather give up X amount of my crops regularly to these guys than Y amounts to an unknown someone else."

Even so, the Slavic People invited the Vikings to rule them in large part because they hadn't been able to set up their own military defense and system of government. And there are regions which remain chaotic in Africa due to colonialism and interested foreign powers despite a century of departure. How much worse is it with wholesale environmental destruction brought out by, well, fallout?
 
Even so, the Slavic People invited the Vikings to rule them in large part because they hadn't been able to set up their own military defense and system of government. And there are regions which remain chaotic in Africa due to colonialism and interested foreign powers despite a century of departure. How much worse is it with wholesale environmental destruction brought out by, well, fallout?
Unfortunately the Slavs have been ruled over in part by many others, including the damned Mongols.
 
Non-Broken Steel Fallout 3's ending is shit so I have no argument with you there.



History is a more chaotic organism than that as while humanity has bounced back from numerous disasters, we also have quite impressive gaps in terms of discovering and losing technological as well as social advantages. Aristotle, for example, knew how octopus reproduce and had a surprisingly capable zoological knowledge which was lost or ignored until the 19th century.

High Islamic culture was effectively destroyed by Tamerlane and his Mongol Horde with rebuilding eventually occurring but taking centuries. Carthage never recovered and Libyan civilization took a dramatically different turn. While the "Dark Ages" is a misnomer, it's interesting to look at Rome specifically as a historical location and you get something which actually looks like Fallout in some ways as people used the same aqueducts and locations built until they crumbled to uselessness with no ability to rebuild them (or more precisely, no funds).

Also, the Rule of Law is the exception rather than the rule in most parts of the world. Feudalism was a protection racket which existed on the social contract of, "I'd rather give up X amount of my crops regularly to these guys than Y amounts to an unknown someone else."

Even so, the Slavic People invited the Vikings to rule them in large part because they hadn't been able to set up their own military defense and system of government. And there are regions which remain chaotic in Africa due to colonialism and interested foreign powers despite a century of departure. How much worse is it with wholesale environmental destruction brought out by, well, fallout?
All the examples you give have a common point : they are all nations which got defeated by another, and the victorious had time and resources to insure that the loser couldn't rebuild its former identity. In which case, sure, rebuilding can be difficult. I mean, look at Constantinople. But this is a very specific situation, and it is not the case with most of the disasters that can blow a civilization away. I could oppose the aftermath of the black plague, for example. Despite causing more deaths than a freaking nuclear war, it only took fifteen years for the banking services and the agricultural conglomerates to rise. Or how fast we rebuilt Stalingrad or Hiroshima. Or hell, how fast Germany was back on its feet, despite what happened to it in the last months of the war.
In most cases, humans have a natural tendency to help each other, rebuild fast, and establish the rule of law, wether it is brutal or civilized. We are naturally cooperative, even for selfish reasons.

The thing is : If humans naturally become murderous sociopaths in the absence of modern society, then how did modern society ever form in the first place?

In crises like Atlanta's blizzard-induced traffic gridlock, Hurricane Sandy, the terrorist attacks in Paris, examples of basic human kindness weren't difficult to find. When tragedy hits a country, most people's first impulse is to see what they can to do help their folks, rather than to carry all of their canned food into the basement and start loading their rifles. It's not even because we're nice guys -- it's because instinctively we know that we might need that person at some point. So even if some worldwide crisis were to transform us all into selfish mutants, the reciprocal altruism suggests that we'd probably still be willing to share that can of beanie weenies if it meant we could get something in return later, even if that something is just "an extra person I can feed to the ghouls to make my getaway." That's the biggest thing missing from Bethesda, or hell, from "the road" and from "the walking dead". They shouldn't have to scavenge in vacant houses for food or medicine; somebody should be going camp to camp selling that shit in exchange for bullets, sex, protection, or whatever. Hell, even monkeys figure that out in less than a week. No, really.
"This war of mine", "Fallout 1-2" and "the last of us" and even "Dishonored" (where half the population dies of plague in a matter of months) dealt with this realistically, and the obvious result is immersion on steroids. None of these titles show a world made of chocolate and boobs, mind me. It is brutal, unforgiving. Yet, it works. I don't see a single reason why the commonwealth wouldn't have have a functional system after 50 years, even less after two freaking centuries. At this point, there should be city states, thousands of citizen living around Boston, militias patrolling the streets, production sites and an agricultural system.

Unless the Institute prevents it, alright, and that's a solid reason. Yet, the Institute only started to mess with the commonwealth this century. So what did the citizen do for the first century after the war ? Hunt squirels in the forest and raid, like cavemen ? Why ? There was nothing to prevent them from rebuilding.

As for the rule of law, you mention Feudalism, as an example of a civilization where the rule of law didn't exist. The thing is, feudalism is the perfect example of a functional rule of law. Sure, you had to pay some sort of tax in exchange for public service and protection. But considering that taxes on revenues didn't exist, that peasants worked less than we do and had more free-time than we do (one third of the year, more exactly), the system is not that different from ours. Hell, you still pay a fee for everything you buy today, and "fee" is derived from "fief". I live in Alsace, France, where there are tons of wine producers. Many of them have been there since the 13th century, and have archives of their sales. And guess what, even when the lord was overthrown by an opponent, there wasn't any change in production for them. Because peasants' production wasn't affected by who they served.
So, sure, you had bandits (usually knights. The irony.) and wars. But first of all, medieval wars were rarely "deadly" for the common folk, as battles were extremely rare (and since you ransoming your enemies was the main motivation, killing them would be highly improductive) and banditry is not incompatible with a functional state, government, private sector and banking services. There is banditry is Somalia today, yet Somalia has universities, factories, a government, a police and an army.

As for the roman knowledge, sure some of it was lost. But there's a reason why monks started to copy their texts only decades after the fall of the Empire. And let's not forget that Byzantium kept all the roman knowledge for centuries (hell, Sainte Sophie was built under Justinian's rule, and it only took 8 years to build), and kept it to itself until its destruction. At which point, it finally exported to Europe and provoked the Renaissance.
 
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All the examples you give have a common point : they are all nations which got defeated by another, and the victorious had time and resources to insure that the loser couldn't rebuild its former identity. In which case, sure, rebuilding can be difficult. I mean, look at Constantinople. But this is a very specific situation, and it is not the case with most of the disasters that can blow a civilization away. I could oppose the aftermath of the black plague, for example. Despite causing more deaths than a freaking nuclear war, it only took fifteen years for the banking services and the agricultural conglomerates to rise.
In most cases, humans have a natural tendency to help each other, rebuild fast, and establish the rule of law, wether it is brutal or civilized. We are naturally cooperative, even for selfish reasons.

I respectfully disagree with your view and actually would state the opposite. We are naturally uncooperative because of our tribalist mentality (or selflessness to the group).

:)

What we're getting at is essentially a "half full", "half empty" series of debates here. You point to the feudal model as an example of a functioning state of law and I view it as the "rule by force" series of barest minimums of laws for the majority of existence that it took literal centuries to evolve past warlordism where the locals could do nearly anything they wanted to something resembling a functioning modern state.

Monks also wrote down as much as they could of Roman and Pre-Roman texts because the vast majority of those documents were being lost and would have been eradicated were not. What they also managed to save was a paltry amount compared to what was lost.

However, taking this back to Fallout, perception is actually a large portion of history and its weird quirks. I'm talking about how smaller independent communities are better/believable for the kind of world of Fallout than large modernized nation-states. Not rejecting the idea of communities of any sort.

The Capital Wasteland and Commonwealth are notably NOT anarchies. Megaton and Rivet City are both functioning states (as is the Republic of Dave as well as Little Lamplight). They're just not united states. They're city-states. The idea of governments naturally forming into larger groups like NCR isn't a historical truth as there's certainly plenty of conquerors but people have routinely and religiously fallen back into smaller competing groups for various reasons.

The Hasburg Empire united almost all of Europe for centuries and it broke apart GLEEFULLY after WW1.
Saladin united all of the Middle East and it broke apart.
Alexander the Great and so on.
The British Brexit just recently

Which relates to Fallout and the Wasteland and Commonwealth that what a lot of fans seem to want is people to have established kingdoms or empires versus communities. There are plenty of communities in both lands, albeit smaller than they should be because of game engine limitations. However, they're perfectly fine for the Bronze Age style environment and not necessarily worse than NCR's campaign of aggressive annexation.

Indeed, one of the major moral dilemmas is whether or not the Mojave is better off as a bunch of independent communities than part of a huge nation state. This is notably a question which has been brought up thousands of times across history with many smaller states resisting incorporation by Empires save by violence and reverting to local law and status when no longer forced at sword point.

The judgement here seems to be, "We don't like the way civilization has evolved in the Commonwealth and want it to be something else."
 
I respectfully disagree with your view and actually would state the opposite. We are naturally uncooperative because of our tribalist mentality (or selflessness to the group).
If we were naturally uncooperative, then we would be the only single "ape" species being so. Yet, we are the only one species which actually managed to form a modern society.
Even the most retarded monkeys understand their own rule of law, form clearly defined groups (based on actual professions such as hunter, hooker, gatherer, guard, leader etc.), form a hierarchy and a functional system, including economical. No, really. I worked with apes for several years, and seeing it with my own eyes was quite impressive.
my question stands : If we were naturally uncooperative, why and how does society always appears at some point ?
Remember Graham, who actually offers a very valid definition of tribalism : "a tribe is a family of families". Families are, by definition, cooperative.

What we're getting at is essentially a "half full", "half empty" series of debates here. You point to the feudal model as an example of a functioning state of law and I view it as the "rule by force" series of barest minimums of laws for the majority of existence that it took literal centuries to evolve past warlordism where the locals could do nearly anything they wanted to something resembling a functioning modern state.
The rule of force is a rule of law. The law is, by definition, the "force" of civilization. I never said that the law had to be fair and just ;)

However, taking this back to Fallout, perception is actually a large portion of history and its weird quirks. I'm talking about how smaller independent communities are better/believable for the kind of world of Fallout than large modernized nation-states. Not rejecting the idea of communities of any sort.
The Capital Wasteland and Commonwealth are notably NOT anarchies. Megaton and Rivet City are both functioning states (as is the Republic of Dave as well as Little Lamplight). They're just not united states. They're city-states. The idea of governments naturally forming into larger groups like NCR isn't a historical truth as there's certainly plenty of conquerors but people have routinely and religiously fallen back into smaller competing groups for various reasons.
Which relates to Fallout and the Wasteland and Commonwealth that what a lot of fans seem to want is people to have established kingdoms or empires versus communities. There are plenty of communities in both lands, albeit smaller than they should be because of game engine limitations. However, they're perfectly fine for the Bronze Age style environment and not necessarily worse than NCR's campaign of aggressive annexation.
I see your point, and I agree. Greek like city-states is a very valid, realistic post-apocalyptic society. That's actually how I think the world would evolve to, in case of nuclear annhilation.
However, I could hardly define the republic of dave (eight citizen), Arefu (six citizen) and shanty towns such as Bunker Hills or the crater of Atom as "states". They are, at most, families "surviving" with a prehistoric level of development.
So, alright for the engines limitations. We can't show city states or functional settlements. But in this case, there needs to be a reason. Previous titles had the excuse of the Isometric engine to justify the usage of imagination. In the case of a FPS, what you see is what exists. There's no place for imagination, because you see through the actual eyes of the guy. So, if a city is empty, there needs to be a reason why.
Why is Boston empty, then ? There's room for millions of people. Hooray, even if the population was reduced to 10%, it would take exactly two centuries to come back to the 50's numbers. Yet, Boston is empty and Diamond City must have, at most, 150 citizen.

The judgement here seems to be, "We don't like the way civilization has evolved in the Commonwealth and want it to be something else."
Really, it's more "why is there not any kind of civilization after two centuries ?"
 
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