Well, I'm replaying Fallout 1 now thanks to you

I see your point, and I agree. Greek like city-states is a very valid, realistic post-apocalyptic society. That's actually how I think the world would evolve to, in case of nuclear annhilation.

However, I could hardly define the republic of dave (eight citizen), Arefu (six citizen) and shanty towns such as Bunker Hills or the crater of Atom as "states". They are, at most, families "surviving" with a prehistoric level of development.

So, alright for the engines limitations. We can't show city states or functional settlements. But in this case, there needs to be a reason. Previous titles had the excuse of the Isometric engine to justify the usage of imagination. In the case of a FPS, what you see is what exists. There's no place for imagination, because you see through the actual eyes of the guy. So, if a city is empty, there needs to be a reason why.

Why is Boston empty, then ? There's room for millions of people. Hooray, even if the population was reduced to 10%, it would take exactly two centuries to come back to the 50's numbers. Yet, Boston is empty and Diamond City must have, at most, 150 citizen.

This gets into one of the more difficult issues of Bethesda's games, which is the fact we can't really say what is literally true versus metaphorically true in terms of the settlements. The Republic of Dave is literally meant to be Dave, his harem, and his children. That's the joke. Arefu is also probably only a small number of citizens because the Lone Wanderer can single handedly kill them all. However, I don't think Megaton, Diamond City, or Rivet City is meant to "literally" just be the citizens on screen. Diamond City is the "Jewel of the Commonwealth" with a class divide between the Stands and the Grounds. You can't really do that with just fifty people and there's often references to other groups. I'm inclined to give it a population of about 5,000 people with the idea of 1 settler=10 people in terms of real numbers but this is just my idea of the whole thing.

Yet, ironically, I would think the Super Mutant and Raiders settlements are "literally" true. It's like Skyrim where you can wipe out a Bandit Settlement single-handedly and that makes sense but Whiterun is probably more than the few streets you see.

:)

Really, it's more "why is there not any kind of civilization after two centuries ?"

Honestly, I felt the Commonwealth felt much more settled than the Capital Wasteland. Dozens of (small) villages and trade routes to one gigantic town.
 
This gets into one of the more difficult issues of Bethesda's games, which is the fact we can't really say what is literally true versus metaphorically true in terms of the settlements. The Republic of Dave is literally meant to be Dave, his harem, and his children. That's the joke. Arefu is also probably only a small number of citizens because the Lone Wanderer can single handedly kill them all. However, I don't think Megaton, Diamond City, or Rivet City is meant to "literally" just be the citizens on screen. Diamond City is the "Jewel of the Commonwealth" with a class divide between the Stands and the Grounds. You can't really do that with just fifty people and there's often references to other groups. I'm inclined to give it a population of about 5,000 people with the idea of 1 settler=10 people in terms of real numbers but this is just my idea of the whole thing.

Yet, ironically, I would think the Super Mutant and Raiders settlements are "literally" true. It's like Skyrim where you can wipe out a Bandit Settlement single-handedly and that makes sense but Whiterun is probably more than the few streets you see.

:)



Honestly, I felt the Commonwealth felt much more settled than the Capital Wasteland. Dozens of (small) villages and trade routes to one gigantic town.
Which isn't hard, considering that the Capital Wasteland has been a war battlefield for decades, and the main target for the nuclear warheads. Managing to do just a little better than them is not an achievement, in my mind.
If 1 settler = 10 people, then Diamond City would have about, let's say, 5000 to 10 000 citizen.
Which would make it the same size as the refugee "camp" of Calais, commonly called "the Jungle of Calais", which actually has about the same amenities than Diamond City : makeshift schools, shops, restaurants, church etc.

The guys at the jungle don't speak the local language. They don't have money, resources to salvage, things to trade or anything. They are secluded and hated by the local population. They don't even want to stay in France, so it's not like they actually even "wanted" to build a shanty town in the first place.
Guess how long it took them to build one, roughly the size and structure of Diamond City (aka, "the jewel of the commonwealth", or a shanty town, depending on the point of view) anyway? Not 200 years, no. Three months. Three freaking months. Which illustrates my point : when it comes to build our home, humans are impressively fast and effective.

Strange that it took two centuries for the local population, in their own town, with plenty of junk around to salvage, two entires centuries to build something that foreign refugees took only three months to make, litteraly by accident.


Second problem : let's imagine that 1 settler = 10 people, alright. This optimistic scenario leads to another problem. Let's see the calculus for population's growth rate here...
eq2.gif


And alright, let's do some math. Let's consider that Boston roughly had 650 000 citizen by the time the bombs fell, aka approximatly as much as today's Boston. Seems plausible.
Now, Diamond City, with its 10 000 citizen, make up for most of the town's population. Let's add 50%, because of raiders, traders, goodneighboor and lowlifes living here and there. We get 15 000 people. Seems highly optimistic (Super Mutants wouldn't last long if that was the case, considering that unlike humans, they can't replace their fallen comrades), but anyway.

Growth rate (in percentage):
= [[(15 000 - 650 000) / 650 000 ] x 100 ] / 10
= -0.97 x 100 / 10
= -19%

Let's compare that to the growth rate of Europe during the black plague's century, which killed more people than a nuclear war could : -0.07%.
See the problem, there ? In two centuries of average peace (aka, no large scale conflict or invasion) and reconstruction, the growth rate is 271 times lower than Europe's DURING the black plague. Hell, with -19% of growth rate, the commonwealth should be populated by inbred, prehistoric tribes by now. Oh, what's that ? New Vegas and Fallout 2 seem to have taken the the growth rate into account, when building their lore ? There ARE actually tribes in places where the growth rate is impossible to rise, such as arid environments and canyons ? And in civilized, fertile lands, there are millions of citizen living in city states, with different functional societies, businesses and agricultural trade, who have stopped "surviving" a hundred years ago ? Oh.

So, I'm okay with that. I'd roll with any explanation for why the Commonwealth is basically empty. Maybe there's a big problem of sterility due to radiation (which would actually JUSTIFY the construction of Synthetic humans in every way, but nooo, it's not like the writers thought about synthetic surrogate mothers, which would make perfect sense for the Institute). Maybe there has been a virus that decimated the population shortly before the events of Fallout 4 (which would give importance to Curie's experiments, but then again...). Maybe there has been another war that has forced people to move away (which would enhance the history of the Minutemen, but no)
There could be plenty of perfectly plausible explanations. Thing is, we get none, because the writers simply didn't think about it. In seven years of production. Instead, they boast about "an obsession to details" because they took some time to render different shades of Pipboy's buttons, and they don't want to discuss realism in a world "with talking mutants".

so, Mister Phipps, did you ever make it to the Cathedral?
Hag, I love your signature. It's okay to have a crush on the master. It's not dirty.
 
I should point out that my home of Ashland, Ky had about 10,000 people while I was an adolescent. It was a mid-sized town and a sustained steel industry with a reasonable quality of life. Also, it's not a poisonous radioactive wasteland. Furthermore, the sustained growth is for an urbanized environment versus and an agrarian one.

However, given the fact Diamond City is a Shanty Town, that is a sign that society is in a pretty bad state and a refugee camp would probably be pretty welcome. I basically turned Starlight Drive into one with lots and lots of one room homes.

But the problem is it keeps boiling down to the idea you assume things will get better when I'm fairly okay with the idea the Commonwealth started with a much larger population Pre-War and has slowly gotten smaller due to disease, radiation storms, sterility, famine, and other conditions which would logically be very common.

The Post-Apocalypse is not a nice place.

Of course, I also note population growth can and should be limited by resource sustainability. The Pre-War World didn't have nearly enough and it destroyed itself over such. The idea of large families able to sustain themselves in the Commonwealth seems questionable. Of course, I don't actually think there's LITERALLY just fourteen settlements and Diamond City, I think it's probably far larger but again, we're dealing with extrapolations.

What's fact is the Commonwealth is mostly independent Medieval villages and two large cities.

Diamond City and the Institute.
 
Last edited:
I should point out that my home has about 10,000 people.

Also, it's not a poisonous radioactive wasteland.
Same for me, here. But my home is not the capital of my country, a central place of business etc.
As for the poisonous radioactive wasteland, as opposed to the NCR, which established itself around the glow ? The whole world's ecosystem is fucked anyway, in Fallout's lore. Which is why Shis and NCR scientists are actually trying to master it, with their own bioscience researches, because of course they would. They've had time to survive and rebuild, now it's time to dominate the environment again.
Hell, look at Mad Max : Fury Road's environments, where there are electromagnetic storms and dry oceans. Even there, one generation after the war only, we can already see societies rising up, with their own structure, trade, religion etc. Brutal and messed up societies, yep, but that's not the point.
I think that Fallout has never been about random dudes surviving and building shanty towns like the ones we see in real life. It has always been about how new, original societies deal with the errors of the past (repeat them? Correct them? Protect humanity from them?), and about how people change in the process, just like Mad Max.
 
BTW, I'm close to the end of Fallout 1 (Yes, I remember what this thread is about) but a bunch of stuff have kept me from getting to play as much as I've wanted and post.

Same for me, here. But my home is not the capital of my country, a central place of business etc.

I will state it's bad world design that Diamond City is not merged with Bunker Hill and Goodneighbor. Diamond City having slums and a place of trade would make it more believable.

As for the poisonous radioactive wasteland, as opposed to the NCR, which established itself around the glow ?

The Boneyard, Shady Sands, and Vault City were all established by Vaults with technology and GECKS. Likewise there is the Hub, San Fransisco, New Reno, and numerous other successful settlements. None of which I believe are about the Glow. Massachusetts is also much-much smaller than California, which is a state the size of Japan.

Statistically, being literally 1/16th the size of California, Massachusetts has more cities than NCR per square mile.

The whole world's ecosystem is fucked anyway, in Fallout's lore. Hell, look at Mad Max : Fury Road's environments, where there are electromagnetic storms and dry oceans. Even there, one generation after the war only, we can already see societies rising up, with their own structure, trade, religion etc. Brutal and messed up societies, yep, but that's not the point.

I should also point out that Mad Max: Fury Road, Furiosa discovers that her home society which was a thriving one was completely destroyed by chemical pollution (which the director has said comes from Gastown's fracking). Max also states that, essentially, there are no settlements they can flee too.

I think that Fallout has never been about random dudes surviving and building shanty towns like the ones we see in real life. It has always been about how new, original societies deal with the errors of the past (repeat them? Correct them? Protect humanity from them?), and about how people change in the process, just like Mad Max.

I'm generally with Chris Avellone that I think the world should remain a radioactive and largely lawless one. The player characters can help establish empires as we see with the BOS-run Capital Wasteland. I think nation-states like NCR are doomed to collapse into anarchy, though, much like Caesar's Legion will.

Ironically, I wish Nuka World and Far Harbor had been part of the main game as both would have made the map feel less empty and given more culture to Fallout 4. A Raider Kingdom and a thriving fishermen's settlement and a religious theocracy.
 
The Hasburg Empire united almost all of Europe for centuries and it broke apart GLEEFULLY after WW1.
Saladin united all of the Middle East and it broke apart.
Alexander the Great and so on.
The British Brexit just recently
It broke apart not because Humans are cunts but because of economic, political and cultural tensions.
But he didn't unite the Middle East....
Never named a successor.
British people tired of the corruption and unfairness of the EU.

fallen back into smaller competing groups for various reasons.
But the problem is, that many of these groups became their own countries in their own right. They didn't become little shitholes of nothing, but their own countries, their own empires and their own culture. You mistake independent nations breaking away from the motherland as catastrophic and hence justifying the small cities in the Bethesdian Fallouts. Let me tell you something... it doesn't. If the Legion collapses we will not see Flagstaff vs Phoneix and so on, but Lanius's faction vs Vulpes's faction and so on, each trying to rebuild and form a growing empire. If the NCR falls apart it's the same. There isn't going to be city vs city, but faction vs faction. Yes, some of these factions may only have a settlement, but the point is that they're going to try grow and become stronger.
 
Hey guys really sorry to ask but i'm completely rubbish at finding the correct place to ask these questions so please redirect me if you can.
i used to play this game (fallout 1 & 2) years ago and it really frustrated me that i couldn't excel past a certain level. i know that there is a way to add a particular text file or something that allows you to edit character levels or even add in extra levels etc, that somebody has created for fallout1 and fallout2 as i managed to download it before a year or 2 ago for my old pc. unfortunately it got stolen and i now i cant find the file in here. please help :(
 
Fallout Thoughts 4#

+ There's some more quests around the Hub which I do that don't really have much to say about like helping a guy get his ranch back by MOIDER. I will say it's interesting how the Hub is a source of so many quests but it doesn't have much of the same flavor as the other locations. It's probably my least favorite place in the game, to be honest. Everything here feels a trifle more generic than Shady Sands and Junktown with the NPCs being less interesting. The exception, of course, are Iguana Bob and Harold.

+ For example, I'll point out Loxley feels like someone didn't tell the developers they weren't writing for Baldur's Gate. Loxley being the Robin Hood reference and cheerful fast talking thief archetype seems BIZARRELY out of place for the Hub. I also wonder why there's a focus on burglarly as a refined art in a brutal murderous wasteland like this. The fact they recruit you rather than shoot you also seems off.

+ I did, however, hear about the Water Chip in Necropolis and need to go visit there in order to get one. I'm interested in progressing the story so...OH MY GOD! GHOULS ARE ATTACKING ME! AHHHHH! KILL THEM! KILL THEM ALL!

*shudders in horror*

WTF!

+ Random Aside: Feral Ghouls are one of the most controversial elements in the Fallout reboot (which is how I think of the Bethesda games). Honestly, though I always felt there were a thing in the game and that not all ghouls maintained their sentience. I also felt that while people assumed ghouls were intelligent and discriminated against, I also felt ghouls weren't stand ins for minorities but people with a DISEASE. In this case, they're meant to be more Lepers than people just driven out of thrir homes.

Which still makes slaughtering them tragic but helps underscore the tragedy of their situation that they might lose their minds.

+ I eventually meet a non-hostile ghoul who tells me the ones in the underground are peaceful, unlike the EVIL Set. I then get a more complicated situation where the ones living underground are peaceful while the ones living up above are not. The ones living up above need the ones underground for defense while the ones living below need the ones above for water. NOW TO DISRUPT THIS CAREFULLY BALANCED HARMONY.

He also tells me if I fix their water pump, I can have their water chip. Well, not really, but I INFER I can steal their water chip.

+ I manage to sneak in to meet Set during this encounter and he's a racist prick who wants to create his ghoul separatist society. I think of him as the Ghoul Magneto, personally, and am totally going to murder him after this. I take a quest from him and it is to murder the Super Mutants around the Water Purifier.

+ I proceed to go meet Harry the Super Mutant, who is exactly like Super Mutants should be, Big and DumbTM! I convince Harry that I am actually a living robot and proceed to fix their water pump. Unfortunately, it occurs to me I need to go save their prisoner which requires me to murder poor Harry and his companions.

Sorry guys.

But at the end of the day, you're Super Mutants and Jacob the Vault Dweller is a huge racist.

PEW PEW PEW!

+ I proceed to head down into the ruins of Vault 12 and steal the Water Chip there. I also murder some Glowing Ones since they're not very Jason Bright-like.

+ I rescue the ghoul locked up then and head back for my reward. Which is a bunch of flares and empty bottle caps.

BLAM BLAM BLAM!

The local ghouls did not like that but I rush out as I only wanted to murder Set.
 
So @CT Phipps
You think Fallout New Vegas isn't canon with the main series?

Ok.
You're fucking dead to me. Like you can defend Fallout 3 and say shit about NV not staying true to 1 & 2? You cheeky bastard. Just kidding. But seriously you need to play more RPGs. Have you tried vampire the masquerade? I think you'd like it. It's "cool".
 
IIRC that was the reason why Chris Avellone never really made romance stories in his games due to a dislike of traditional romance stories. Many of the romances in his games often end with some form of unrequited love and tragedy while the rest are more complex intra-personal relationships.

Well, judging by New Vegas, he just isn't that good in romance stories, because in the light of his words about romances in video games, NV ones look ridiculous. I mean, that's a game where you can fuck the slave prostitute in Gomorrah through the relatively easy speech check - despite being sent to rescue her by her lover, and none of them even mention it! Then, the closest thing you can get to romance scenario is the Red Lucy fetch quest line where the romance is boiled down to being a reward for a couple of eggs through retarded "You are my hunter now" dialogue. This is what Sawyer (not Avellone) considers good, apparently. But the romantic relationship with, say, Cass, after all you have been through together, even when her dialogue in the game and ending suggest that? God forbid.
 
So @CT Phipps
You think Fallout New Vegas isn't canon with the main series?

Ok.
You're fucking dead to me. Like you can defend Fallout 3 and say shit about NV not staying true to 1 & 2? You cheeky bastard. Just kidding. But seriously you need to play more RPGs. Have you tried vampire the masquerade? I think you'd like it. It's "cool".

Why in the world would it be canon with an isometric tactical series by a different company? Fallout 3 isn't canon to the main series either.

At least to me.

New Vegas is canon to Bethesda's timelime of course.

And yes, V:TM is on my top ten lists of favorite video games.

Well, judging by New Vegas, he just isn't that good in romance stories, because in the light of his words about romances in video games, NV ones look ridiculous. I mean, that's a game where you can fuck the slave prostitute in Gomorrah through the relatively easy speech check - despite being sent to rescue her by her lover, and none of them even mention it! Then, the closest thing you can get to romance scenario is the Red Lucy fetch quest line where the romance is boiled down to being a reward for a couple of eggs through retarded "You are my hunter now" dialogue. This is what Sawyer (not Avellone) considers good, apparently. But the romantic relationship with, say, Cass, after all you have been through together, even when her dialogue in the game and ending suggest that? God forbid.

Which is strange because I like Annah and Falls from Grace.
 
Well, judging by New Vegas, he just isn't that good in romance stories, because in the light of his words about romances in video games, NV ones look ridiculous. I mean, that's a game where you can fuck the slave prostitute in Gomorrah through the relatively easy speech check - despite being sent to rescue her by her lover, and none of them even mention it! Then, the closest thing you can get to romance scenario is the Red Lucy fetch quest line where the romance is boiled down to being a reward for a couple of eggs through retarded "You are my hunter now" dialogue. This is what Sawyer (not Avellone) considers good, apparently. But the romantic relationship with, say, Cass, after all you have been through together, even when her dialogue in the game and ending suggest that? God forbid.
When you play as a male courier, and helped her to revenge, and choose to support NCR at the end, the ending kinda suggest Cass raped the courier while still he still drunk though.
 
When you play as a male courier, and helped her to revenge, and choose to support NCR at the end, the ending kinda suggest Cass raped the courier while still he still drunk though.

No, she sleeps with another NCR soldier due to a room mixup.
 
Why in the world would it be canon with an isometric tactical series by a different company? Fallout 3 isn't canon to the main series either.

At least to me.

New Vegas is canon to Bethesda's timelime of course.

And yes, V:TM is on my top ten lists of favorite video games.



Which is strange because I like Annah and Falls from Grace.
I sure hope you're not serious. You do know that Obsidian has many of the devs that were in Black Isle and worked on the classic Fallouts, right? New Vegas is the most true to the originals of all the newer Fallout games by far.
 
This guy gets it^

Seriously though Ct Flippers, I enjoy talking with you.

If you enjoy Nuka World and Bethesda's Wasteland Adventure 2 that's fine. But you're saying a direct epilogue to the first two games made by several people that worked on said games isn't canon because... the perspective is the only reason I've been given so far. Please elaborate.

Oh and thank god you've played V:TM ;)
 
This guy gets it^

Seriously though Ct Flippers, I enjoy talking with you.

If you enjoy Nuka World and Bethesda's Wasteland Adventure 2 that's fine. But you're saying a direct epilogue to the first two games made by several people that worked on said games isn't canon because... the perspective is the only reason I've been given so far. Please elaborate.

Oh and thank god you've played V:TM ;)

This is getting into complicated territory but I suppose it's important to handle as I didn't realize New Vegas was considered to be a canonical part of the timeline here versus a loving homage to the work. In that respect, I think of New Vegas the same way as Fallout 3 which I consider to be a remake of the first two games. In some respects, I might argue New Vegas is like "The Force Awakens." Kasden wrote "The Empire Strikes Back" as well as "The Force Awakens" but I think the Original Trilogy stands perfectly fine on its own.

But to get into specifics, I do think Fallout 2 is the work which kind of nicely wraps up all of the various story arcs from the original and gives a sense of how humanity is going to continue to evolve over the course of the next century. Fallout 1 and 2 have THEMES which include environmental, military, and socio-economic.

One of the themes is the transformation of humanity from its previous state which was a resource-exploiting plunder-based economy ala The Pre-War United States to something which is environmentally friendly. A mixture of tribal as well as technological belief structures similar to (of all things) the Children in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome who benefit from allying with Master. It is a society which is not going to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Ultimately, Fallout and Fallout 2 are very much based around the idea of not mourning over the Pre-War world but looking into what sort of new societies are created in the aftermath. Aredash and Tandi are going to build their own new society which is better than the one that came before. There's some stumbling like NCR trying to annex Vault City but by F2, the world no longer resembles the one which came before and has become its own thing.

Fallout: New Vegas, by contrast, is very much like Fallout 3 in its themes as it's focused on the past. Old World Blues, Dead Money, Honest Hearts, and Lonesome Road are all about the fact people can't move on from the past. There's also a mourning of the Old World which doesn't exist in F1 and F2. Mister House exists as a living ghost of the Pre-War America only he is a demigod of science/A Lich of WondersTM who better fits the pseudo-1950s world created by Bethesda than the fascist America of the Pre-War world. Certainly, he was a rich and powerful demagogue living in a tourism city when most people were close to starvation.

There's also minor continuity issues too like the fact Tycho in Fallout 1 clearly comes from a pseudo-Wasteland Mojave which is completely absent from Fallout: New Vegas. There's a nod to them that they were absorbed into NCR but there's really no reason for NCR not to have annexed the Mojave by now. Likewise, Las Vegas is a city which can't exist without infrastructure so it wouldn't have existed without someone like Mister House to create it and he's unconscious for a century.

So, if I were to make a timeline it would be:

Wasteland>>>Wasteland 2>>>Fallout>>>Fallout 2

Tactics

Fallout 3>>>Fallout: New Vegas>>>Fallout 4
 
Back
Top