Well THIS is eerily prophetic...

[Dr Fallout]

In Skyrim doing all the questlines is easy and you don't even need to be skilled in their area but you do in Morrowind. Only a person bent on doing everything and willing to grind will be able to do ALMOST all of Morrowind's guilds.

 

[Someguy37]

Implying that the questing, factions, and options in Morrowind are even close to later Elder Scrolls games is disingenuous

Your right, Morrowind had some of the worst of each, only surpassed by Oblivion and Battlespire.

Still my second favorite TES game though.

 

[fakeangel]

 

[Dr Fallout]

Implying that the questing, factions, and options in Morrowind are even close to later Elder Scrolls games is disingenuous

Your right, Morrowind had some of the worst of each, only surpassed by Oblivion and Battlespire.

Still my second favorite TES game though.

What game had the best guilds? The 'you're my only hope' Skyrim, the 'cool theme park' Oblivion or the 'typical guild job' Morrowind?

 

[Someguy37]

What game had the best guilds? The 'you're my only hope' Skyrim, the 'cool theme park' Oblivion or the 'typical guild job' Morrowind?

I would say they all sucked fairly equally, for different reasons.

Morrowind's sucked because nothing you did in them was worthy of advancement, it was shit those guilds regularly outsourced to other mercs, and often amounted to literally "pick flowers", or "ask people to donate money" and were about on par with Skyrim's radiant guild quests in terms of depth, but without having systems in place to make more of them. On top of that, the way you advanced didn't make much sense either, it was like you just went up to someone and showed them your stat sheet, which wouldn't actually exist, and never did they really make you DO anything to prove you had the skills you said you did.

Oblivion was better in that they actually had some attempt at a plot, which actually made getting named guild master somewhat logical, but they were so pants on head retarded, just like everything else in Oblivion, that it fell flat. On top of that, it didn't rely on the magic "stat sheet" to gain advancement, it was more "people actually saw you do shit", so it made more sense there.

Skyrim had better plots then Oblivion's guilds, and generally had more instances of "you actually have to use the skills you are supposed to have for this guild" then Oblivion did(I actually had to use magic in Skyrim's College questline then at any point in Oblivions of Morrowinds Mages guilds) but were ultimately let down by the fact they were short as fuck. Likely a result of trying to appease the complaints that Oblivion's guilds had too much padding, and too little plot, so they just went "all plot" and sucked because some padded is needed to make them not feel rushed.

they all kinda sucked and weren't very believable.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Implying that the questing, factions, and options in Morrowind are even close to later Elder Scrolls games is disingenuous

Your right, Morrowind had some of the worst of each, only surpassed by Oblivion and Battlespire.

Still my second favorite TES game though.

What game had the best guilds? The 'you're my only hope' Skyrim, the 'cool theme park' Oblivion or the 'typical guild job' Morrowind?

Well the Skyrim Mages guild made me Head of the entire guild direct from apprentice in 3 or 4 quests, so I'd say they're pretty nice guys if not totally stupid.

The Skyrim Dark Brotherhood also made me head of the guild simply because the previous head was jealous of me.

Say what you want about Oblivion, at least it's Dark Brotherhood quest was better than that.

 

[Dr Fallout]

What game had the best guilds? The 'you're my only hope' Skyrim, the 'cool theme park' Oblivion or the 'typical guild job' Morrowind?

I would say they all sucked fairly equally, for different reasons.

Morrowind's sucked because nothing you did in them was worthy of advancement, it was shit those guilds regularly outsourced to other mercs, and often amounted to literally "pick flowers", or "ask people to donate money" and were about on par with Skyrim's radiant guild quests in terms of depth, but without having systems in place to make more of them. On top of that, the way you advanced didn't make much sense either, it was like you just went up to someone and showed them your stat sheet, which wouldn't actually exist, and never did they really make you DO anything to prove you had the skills you said you did.

Oblivion was better in that they actually had some attempt at a plot, which actually made getting named guild master somewhat logical, but they were so pants on head retarded, just like everything else in Oblivion, that it fell flat. On top of that, it didn't rely on the magic "stat sheet" to gain advancement, it was more "people actually saw you do shit", so it made more sense there.

Skyrim had better plots then Oblivion's guilds, and generally had more instances of "you actually have to use the skills you are supposed to have for this guild" then Oblivion did(I actually had to use magic in Skyrim's College questline then at any point in Oblivions of Morrowinds Mages guilds) but were ultimately let down by the fact they were short as fuck. Likely a result of trying to appease the complaints that Oblivion's guilds had too much padding, and too little plot, so they just went "all plot" and sucked because some padded is needed to make them not feel rushed.

they all kinda sucked and weren't very believable.

For one, you can't advance in Morrowind guilds unless you're good at them. And that's the point, they're supposed to be run of the mill jobs, not epic questlines to save the world... three times already.

 

[Someguy37]

For one, you can't advance in Morrowind guilds unless you're good at them. And that's the point, they're supposed to be run of the mill jobs, not epic questlines to save the world... three times already.

Not really, its trivially easy to just pay skill trainers to get your skills to 100, and then just play through the mages guild as a warrior, or the fighters guild using spells, since you never actually have to use those skills in any way.

And no, the point of guilds is that they DON'T do run of the mill jobs. Normal jobs are given to random mercs. Guilds are supposed to take on the most difficult tasks, that require specialist and organized small armies to get done. That is part of the reason they were formed in the first place.

 

[Dr Fallout]

For one, you can't advance in Morrowind guilds unless you're good at them. And that's the point, they're supposed to be run of the mill jobs, not epic questlines to save the world... three times already.

Not really, its trivially easy to just pay skill trainers to get your skills to 100, and then just play through the mages guild as a warrior, or the fighters guild using spells, since you never actually have to use those skills in any way.

And no, the point of guilds is that they DON'T do run of the mill jobs. Normal jobs are given to random mercs. Guilds are supposed to take on the most difficult tasks, that require specialist and organized small armies to get done. That is part of the reason they were formed in the first place.

It is but who does that? (You apparently)

Actually that's not totally true. The Fighters Guild was basically a group of official mercs who started a guild so they could help each other out in doing mercenary jobs and the Mages Guild is more interested in research then actual battles and power coups. They aim at making magic more open to the public, basically being like experience schools NOT 'save the world' academies. And the thieves guild is a group of thieves that grouped together to share profits and... well they're organized crime.

 

[Someguy37]

It is but who does that? (You apparently)

Actually that's not totally true. The Fighters Guild was basically a group of official mercs who started a guild so they could help each other out in doing mercenary jobs and the Mages Guild is more interested in research then actual battles and power coups. They aim at making magic more open to the public, basically being like experience schools NOT 'save the world' academies. And the thieves guild is a group of thieves that grouped together to share profits and... well they're organized crime.

The overwhelming majority of people I know have done it. Its actually mentioned as the preferred means of playing the game on basically every guide out there. I actully don't do it myself, just pointing out you can.


Actually, THAT'S not true
-The Fighters Guild was founded by the Akaviri as a mean to provide public order without the need to have a standing army. It was literally designed to be an army, and do the things the army does.
-The Mages Guild was founded to centralize magic teaching, and because Vanus Galerion wanted a means to combat what he saw was the dark influence of Mannimarco.
-The Thieves Guild is not only a group of criminals, but also serves as the crime regulator for Tamriel, going out and destroying other "Thieves Guild" like organizations in order to keep crime under thier rule only, they are always at war of some kind with other organizations.

Your definitions of the guilds are very limited, and dull.

 

[Dr Fallout]

It is but who does that? (You apparently)

Actually that's not totally true. The Fighters Guild was basically a group of official mercs who started a guild so they could help each other out in doing mercenary jobs and the Mages Guild is more interested in research then actual battles and power coups. They aim at making magic more open to the public, basically being like experience schools NOT 'save the world' academies. And the thieves guild is a group of thieves that grouped together to share profits and... well they're organized crime.

The overwhelming majority of people I know have done it. Its actually mentioned as the preferred means of playing the game on basically every guide out there. I actully don't do it myself, just pointing out you can.


Actually, THAT'S not true
-The Fighters Guild was founded by the Akaviri as a mean to provide public order without the need to have a standing army. It was literally designed to be an army, and do the things the army does.
-The Mages Guild was founded to centralize magic teaching, and because Vanus Galerion wanted a means to combat what he saw was the dark influence of Mannimarco.
-The Thieves Guild is not only a group of criminals, but also serves as the crime regulator for Tamriel, going out and destroying other "Thieves Guild" like organizations in order to keep crime under thier rule only, they are always at war of some kind with other organizations.

Your definitions of the guilds are very limited, and dull.

Really?

-Fighters Guild: It was made like that certainly, but then during the prominence of the Empire it changed to, The guild is a professional organization chartered by the Emperor to regulate the hiring and training of mercenaries, protect commerce, capture or drive away beasts, and similar security duties.

-Mages Guild: It was made to ensure that magic could be open to most as long as they could pay, forming a kind of training area. That was added in by Oblivion, though the guild changed thanks to the Empire.

-Thieves Guild: Yes, and?

 

[Hassknecht]

For one, you can't advance in Morrowind guilds unless you're good at them. And that's the point, they're supposed to be run of the mill jobs, not epic questlines to save the world... three times already.

Not really, its trivially easy to just pay skill trainers to get your skills to 100, and then just play through the mages guild as a warrior, or the fighters guild using spells, since you never actually have to use those skills in any way.

And no, the point of guilds is that they DON'T do run of the mill jobs. Normal jobs are given to random mercs. Guilds are supposed to take on the most difficult tasks, that require specialist and organized small armies to get done. That is part of the reason they were formed in the first place.

Guilds are just unions of people of a certain profession to ensure quality of work and control over payments. Of course they do run of the mill jobs, at least what they'd consider run of the mill job for their profession. It makes perfect sense to make the apprentices do the basic shitjobs, because that's what they're there for, and that's what apprentices do. For the rank advancement in Morrowind, don't think of it as "showing your skill sheet", think of it as an abstraction of a test. In a real artisan guild you can't call yourself journeyman or master without passing tests that show your skill. Oblivion and especially Skyrim just bump you through a few quests (oh yeah, you have to perform magic... By reading the scrolls that are conveniently provided whenever actual magic is needed) and then you're suddenly the head of the guild.
In Morrowind you have to have certain skills. Paying skill trainers to increase your skill is absolutely fine, I mean, that's what teachers do, right? You pay them, they teach you. Same outcome as training on your own. And it's not that trivially easy, because there's usually only very few trainers that can teach a skill to the maximum (and some you can't reach easily, or won't teach you unless you're a certain rank), and the amount of gold needed to train increases steadily.
Yeah, the Mage's Guild quests in Morrowind rarely require you to use magic, but at least they're all related to use of magic in some way (ok, there are the typical "journeyman tells apprentice to go get a case of beer" type of shitjobs, too). I think it's not that bad a representation of how a real guild works. "Lehrjahre sind keine Herrenjahre".
Sure, it's less cool than going up to a guild and stumbling into an epic quest that lets you, the noobiest noob in the guild, be the hero that saves them all, but hey, that's what the main quest is for

 

[Crni Vuk]

it's simply what gives Morrowind it's quality as RPG and as game in general. It's not about realism. It's about consistency and verisimiltude. Morrowind made it also impossible to become the leader of EVERY faction and guild in the game, simply because some guilds have been hostile to each other. A concept that is totally uknown in any of the Bethesda games that came after Morrowind. Even better, once you advance in your main quest in Morrowind to a certain point, certain guilds will be hostile to you or at least they will stop to interact with you, like the Tribunal Temple, some of the Houses and tribes I think, up to the point where you have proven to be the real Nerevar.

Morrowind was the last game where Bethesda even cared to make something like a reputation in the game.

 

[Someguy37]

it's simply what gives Morrowind it's quality as RPG and as game in general. It's not about realism. It's about consistency and verisimiltude. Morrowind made it also impossible to become the leader of EVERY faction and guild in the game, simply because some guilds have been hostile to each other. A concept that is totally uknown in any of the Bethesda games that came after Morrowind. Even better, once you advance in your main quest in Morrowind to a certain point, certain guilds will be hostile to you or at least they will stop to interact with you, like the Tribunal Temple, some of the Houses and tribes I think, up to the point where you have proven to be the real Nerevar.

Morrowind was the last game where Bethesda even cared to make something like a reputation in the game.

Actually you could become the leader of every guild sans two of the three great houses, which is no different then becoming the highest rank in the Legion but not the Stormcloaks and vice versa, and being only able to join the blades or the greybards, but not both.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Nope. You're wrong. There have been a lot more consequences if you decided to join certain factions in Morrowind. Up to the point where some factions would see you as their enemy.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Factions

*Edit you possibly CAN join ALL factions, as long as you don't do any quests in the begining for them, but that is where reputation kicks in, which is something that lacks completely from Skyrim/Oblivion. Not to mention quests that are in conflict with each other, where you have to sometimes even kill the member of a different faction and/or steal something from them. In Morrowind factions can and will kick you out for certain actions, this was the last Bethesda game that allowed you, as the player to actually "fail" in something.

So you definetly can not become the super leader of every faction you can join.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Arguing with this guy about Morrowind is impossible because he's just going to use technicalities in a vain attempt to "prove" that Morrowind is as shallow or more shallow than Skyrim.

 

[Hassknecht]

Arguing with this guy about Morrowind is impossible because he's just going to use technicalities in a vain attempt to "prove" that Morrowind is as shallow or more shallow than Skyrim.

Well, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Seriously though, it's kinda hard comparing all these games. Daggerfall and Morrowind faced some harsh technical limitations of their times and had to involve a lot more abstractions in their gameplay. They're much closer to P&P RPGs due to that, with heavy reliance on random number generation for skill checks and a generally expansive skill system. This is especially evident in Daggerfall, which simply was way too ambitious for the time. They had to tone it down for Morrowind simply because it was clear that such a vast system just doesn't translate well to a real time game. Still, they kept many P&P elements, making the game very clunky from today's perspective.
They toned it down even further with Oblivion while also changing the game mechanics to a more action-oriented style (hits and magic successes are no longer dependent on RNG and skill). The change in game mechanics was a good choice, because let's face it, Morrowind plays like shit. But toning down the skills even more was not really necessary in my opinion.
That trend continued in Skyrim, streamlining the character building while making the game more responsive to play.
The problem here is that with new technologies Oblivion and Skyrim could have focused more on writing and pacing, expanding the questlines into something more deep and involved. But they didn't. Time spent not fighting people on horseback is wasted time according to the Toddler.

 

[Severite]

Arguing with this guy about Morrowind is impossible because he's just going to use technicalities in a vain attempt to "prove" that Morrowind is as shallow or more shallow than Skyrim.

Well, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Seriously though, it's kinda hard comparing all these games. Daggerfall and Morrowind faced some harsh technical limitations of their times and had to involve a lot more abstractions in their gameplay. They're much closer to P&P RPGs due to that, with heavy reliance on random number generation for skill checks and a generally expansive skill system. This is especially evident in Daggerfall, which simply was way too ambitious for the time. They had to tone it down for Morrowind simply because it was clear that such a vast system just doesn't translate well to a real time game. Still, they kept many P&P elements, making the game very clunky from today's perspective.
They toned it down even further with Oblivion while also changing the game mechanics to a more action-oriented style (hits and magic successes are no longer dependent on RNG and skill). The change in game mechanics was a good choice, because let's face it, Morrowind plays like shit. But toning down the skills even more was not really necessary in my opinion.
That trend continued in Skyrim, streamlining the character building while making the game more responsive to play.
The problem here is that with new technologies Oblivion and Skyrim could have focused more on writing and pacing, expanding the questlines into something more deep and involved. But they didn't. Time spent not fighting people on horseback is wasted time according to the Toddler.

There are multiple things going on all at the same time, it makes it difficult to separate what was good, from what was bad, as often, people will tend to associate various systems with things they like. For example, the full rpg, top down, complex, and FULLY WRITTEN, "Balders Gate", as the epitome of a role playing game.

However, I believe without a shadow of a doubt, that a Bethesda style game can not only be a successful rpg, but and amazing one. The FPS gameplay, even the streamlining of the perk system, is not inherently bad, and, between the way the stats seem to be used, even gives a reasonable facsimile of the "I had a life before I showed up here", that Skyrim was missing.

Where the games DO fail, is the complete lack of "true" player agency. To go over another post, and make my point, to progress in Morrowind's mages guild, you actually need to know magic...in Skyrim, and even a greater extant Oblivion, no magic need be known to start the quests, and indeed, you can skate by less then say 10 seconds of total magic use in Skyrim, and its all provided to you anyway, laying there for convenience. You can bludgeon your way as the greatest warrior ever to be seen, and become the guild leader for the mages guild. That breaks my suspension of disbelief. Fuck, why didn't some other has been, walk in and do the same. Or, hell, someone actually skilled in magic run through and do the exact thing that I did, or even use me to insert themselves into power? Bah.

I mourn the loss of consequences to my actions in rpg. The Mass Effect series was certainly not perfect, and had its share of issues, but one thing they did so amazingly well, was make your choices MATTER, which, I'm pretty sure is why the game is so loved, and hailed as an rpg of peerless make.

 

[random234]

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

I thought the meme was spot on, why should anyone waste the time to type up something if it is adequately explained by a simple picture. Meme posting is not an autoloss in an argument if the meme fits the situation.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Mr. Someguy37, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

>Can't offer an actual counter argument
>resorts to memes
Yeah, great way to kill any sort of validity your post may have had by memeposting.

I thought the meme was spot on, why should anyone waste the time to type up something if it is adequately explained by a simple picture. Meme posting is not an autoloss in an argument if the meme fits the situation.

It's not even a meme so much as it is a quotation from a movie. It's as much of a meme as quoting a famous author. And considering some of the statements such as "New Vegas forced you to play as a courier therefore it is the same as Fallout 4 forcing you to play as the voiced protagonist" are just dumb.

The original post video explains why Elder Scrolls is dumbed down terribly and these people are writing it off as saying "Bethesda had reasons for doing this." There is no reasoning with such people.