What are people's thoughts on how the Brotherhood is depicted in 3 and 4?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by scorptatious, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. scorptatious

    scorptatious Ugly Mutant

    Oct 8, 2012
    I know 3 and 4 both have aspects of them that contradict the lore established in previous games or are otherwise a bit nonsensical.

    One thing that I'm kinda split on is how the Brotherhood of Steel is depicted in the later games.

    Now, I've never played 4 or Tactics, so my knowledge is limited in that regard.

    I do feel that the idea of a splinter faction that chooses to help people and be more inclusive rather than horde technology and deny access to outsiders isn't a bad one. Really, the only thing I'm not too clear on is how they were able to travel from one end of the United States to the other.

    I'm aware that in Tactics and in 4 they apparently had airships, which explains how they got to the Midwest and Commonswealth respectively, but I'm wondering how they were able to acquire the tech for that kind of thing. Also, I can't imagine their numbers were so large as to be able to create them, let alone mass produce them. If anyone could clear that up, that would be nice.

    Otherwise, discuss.
  2. Pwener

    Pwener FEV is the equivalent of a chest x-ray.

    Aug 15, 2017
    Many have problems on how the Brotherhood is presented in F3 but those people rarely mention that the narrative does go out of its way to explain the 'how and why.' There is no "lore-break" in how the BoS act in Fallout 3 because the game explains the change. The only issue I can accept that people can have is not liking the direction they took them in. But saying it contradicts the lore is stupid because the game in multiple places explains why they're different.

    The Outcasts; Bethesda had no reason to insert them and could have just said that the BoS members that didn't go along with Lyons simply left to return to California. But no, they added them, gave them a place on the map and made a random encounter with them along with a (lackluster) collection quest. Sure, they weren't fleshed out incredibly well but the fact that they were introduced at all is commendable.

    I do have gripes on how even the older senior members are a bit too "gun-ho" about being saviors of the Wasteland but considering that the hardliners left and what remained were basically a cult of personality sorrounding Lyons and his daughter, it's not terribly surprising they're still fanatics - just with a different cause.

    They've also been doing this for almost twenty years so the whole crusade has had time to take roots in all of them. That, and there not being anything else to do for them (Elder's order, ect.) until the Enclave showed up and made them act more like they did back in the original games, even if just a little.

    Really, Lyons' chapter is exactly the naive and idealistic BoS that Veronica dreams of. Emphasis on 'naive.'

    As for the airships, the wiki says that for Fallout 4 the Prydwen was built on Adams AFB using the scrap the Lone Wanderer left behind after blowing up the Mobile Base Crawler. As to how they developed the schematics to make it I don't know and I don't care. It's not that different from a blimp and these guys were able to restore and finish Liberty Prime, the most powerful weapon in Fallout so far with the exception of a nuclear bomb and the airstrike the Enclave used to destroy said giant robot.

    As for how Maxson's BoS act in Fallout 4, I don't care that much. Surprising, I know. They've definitely made a real 180, I'll say that. Still a cult of personality filled with fanatics though but I just don't see them having made such a drastic change in modus operandi the way the game says they did. I find it all very unrealistic and artificial. Like they trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with. They also mishandled the characters of Sarah and Lyons by killing them off. Sarah might have been a wet towel but Lyons I actually liked.

    And what was that nonsense about there being BoS worshipping Arthur? The BoS don't do that. They venerate the Maxson line but not to that level.

    Ridiculous. :yuck:

    I always resent this...
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  3. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    It contradicts the lore because at that time BoS is in a LOSING war with the NCR, so much so that they had to flee to their bunkers. How in the hell were they able to fund an expedition across the wasteland while they are losing in a major way against another faction? It makes no sense.

    Let's not kid ourselves: they are only in the game because how iconic the faction is for the franchise and they wanted to turn them into goody two shoes instead of being grey like they were in the previous games. The change besides being bullshit, it also turns them into an extremely boring faction, which is not what BoS is.
  4. MPPlantOfficial

    MPPlantOfficial Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Aug 24, 2017
    It's 1 size fits all solution for Beth.
    The Companions = Dawnguard = Riley's Raiders = "Regulators" = "Brotherhood of Steel" = Stormcloaks.
    "Weeeee are goooood. We staaaaand for justice."
    Beth faction is Beth faction is Beth faction. No need to point out the inconsistencies, no need to break down the irrelevant microdetails.
  5. Lone Cat

    Lone Cat It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 8, 2012
    A Change in management. A change in policy,

    I bet that F3 crew did play Fallout Tactics before and concieved an idea and potentials of Brotherhood of Steel as an active polity/ a sort of Knight Kingdom rather than being a knight order. so this influenced the inclusive policy (permits outsiders to join en masse) that the West Coast Brotherhood opted not to (And thus they lost their controls and influences over California and Nevada to either New California Republic or Enclave ) While in F3 (The Lyons leaderships) they incorporate some aspects of The Followers of Apocalypse. in F4 they adopted medieval-style recruitment systems (where Knights are a warrior cast of medieval europe. Within the Three Estates of the Realm system, there are three estates (castes or classes) divided by functions as well as heirachy... The First Estate "Those who pray" were clergymen (monks, nuns and priests), also provides education and also keepers of tech. The Second "Those who Fight" were Kings, Princes, Lordships, and Knights (In some cases such as The Crusades, Knights were also The First Estate as well), and The Third... "Those who Works" are basically civilians, either peasants or merchantmen (and in Sieyes C'est ce que Le Tiers Etat? pamphlet... he answered "Tout" (Everyone)) .. Since Knights came from Second Estate, Bluebloods are preferred recurit stocks, drafted around the schooling age (usually 7) and trained non-combat skills first (Literacy, (and maybe basic maths), Social skills. household works (Same thing as Maids do I think) musics, and some religious skills)), and when he entered his teens he became a squire and would get; combat skills (Including weapon maintenances and how to put on and operate a full plate body armor, as well as an ownership) and horseback riding... That person may become a full knight when he reaches 21 (and through virtues!). Through the BoS Origin, it is very easy for them to establish themselves as a Knight Order (And thus Ruling Caste) through virture of US Army.. and convinently mating amongs themselved to make a lineague of warrior caste and thus it is convenient to view wastelanders (or any 'Outsiders' even if they hailed from the prewar USA) as inferior caste (and so claimed any good reasosn to deny their entry except in a very rare case... particularly The Vault Dweller from V13 who did earned the BoS Trust and became Initiate.. throuhg he didn't progress any further because he didn't commut his life to the order and chose his vault (and later after banished by Jacoren; his fellow (Rebellions) dwellers from the same Vault Thirteen and left So Cal for good). Through in F4 Arthur Maxson did reinterprit the 2nd Estate by including the respective pre-existing wasteland warriors 'through senior membership recommendations' and not just any random volunteers as The Lyons did.... Arthur did value the need of wasteland recruits though.
  6. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Like Norzan says, it contradicts lore because of the BoS isolating themselves in their bunkers while losing the NCR war. They have no resources or troops to send on an perilous adventure from one side of the country to the other.

    Also worth noticing that Fallout 3's Brotherhood of Steel is a blatant rip-off of the BoS from the Console game Fallout:Brothehood of Steel:
    "BoS company, goes rogue because it decides to help wastelanders by eliminating the evil mutants. Being then expunged from the "real" BoS by their elders".
    The game doesn't do a very good job on telling us why and how though.

    IIRC, the why is contradicted in game, Elder Lyons says their original mission was to contact the Midwest Brotherhood of Steel, but Scribe Rothchild says that their original mission was to go to the Capital and look for lost technology.

    The how is just "Lyons took pity of the capital wasteland population and decided to help them, going against direct orders from his superiors. A few disagreed and took off with equipment so they can still look for technology." just like that. There is no "going out of the way" to explain why.

    Elder Lyons also made it first priority to find where the Super Mutants came from, but in 20 years they never found their enemies "base". Not to mention that the Brotherhood of Steel has tried to enter Vault 87 in the past, but Elder Lyons says that they couldn't find a way of go through the radiation. Also Scribe Rothchild directly says that there is a high probability that the Vault can be accessed through Little Lamplight caverns, and yet, not one ever tried.

    Do they really want me to believe that while they were trying to find a way of entering Vault 87, no Super mutant was around? In the game there are tons of them near the door at all times.

    Do they also want me to believe that Elder Lyons making it the highest priority of finding where the Super Mutants come from for 20 years have got no leads at all? All they needed to do was send the Lyons Pride to follow at a good distance some dumb orcs. Even an initiate with a few steathboys could do it (specially since initiates use the Recon Armor, which boosts sneak).
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  7. MPPlantOfficial

    MPPlantOfficial Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Aug 24, 2017
    ^This was all that was needed. Again no need to go through every irrelevant detail.

    No they didn't. They saw BoS and applied their skin to their STOCK TEMPLATE FACTIONS.
  8. scorptatious

    scorptatious Ugly Mutant

    Oct 8, 2012
    Power armor helps protect against radiation though doesn't it? Why wouldn't they go through it with some rad-x and rad-away?
  9. Lone Cat

    Lone Cat It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 8, 2012
    Lyons chose to add charity aspects to the order came out of neccessity. just like the lost Midwest Brotherhood.
    Sticking to the Westcoast policy and they ain't gonna survive.
  10. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Kali Yuga Jamboree Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    No, they said before Fallout 3 that they had fans of Tactics on the team. The BoS changing is clearly in line with Tactics and PoS. The Outcasts were there to explain how not all fell in line with Lyons new plan. The problem is people did not like the BoS acting as such, regardless of the lore justification.
  11. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    That was never stated in the entire game though. What the characters say in the game is that Elder Lyons arriving at the Capital Wasteland saw how worse the situation for the people here was compared to the West and decided to abandon his orders and focus on fighting the mutants.

    Not to mention that Elder Lyons already had broke his orders before too, when he ordered the BoS to attack and purge The Pitt from all the evil in there. This was also costly since he lost some people (including Ashur) in that battle.

    His decisions of fighting evil are more costly to the BoS than if he just turned a blind eye and collected technology, like his original orders were.
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  12. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    The Midwest Brotherhood's aid to the local settlements and population was more of a protection racket that a genuine desire to help people. The Midwest Bos saw the benefit of supplying the locals with what they wanted in return for what the Bos wanted; new recruits, supplies, probably also any functional technology the locals have but can't use or food/water/protection outweigh owning this device or machine.

    I don't care for the Fallout 3 BOS. They are basically there because Bethesda wanted to have the BOS and wanted them to be the good guys.
    What if, perhaps a bit of a dumb suggestion, they were the descendants of the local "loyal" National Guard, trying to continue the mission of their ancestors.

    Heck I could imagine even a storyline that they and the soldiers of Raven Rock were once the same group. One faction decided that they wanted to help the locals, be they mutated or not to bring civil order back while the other faction believes that order can only come through military might and that they need to "weed out the muties" so that true humanity can prevail.

    This would be the good military faction's dirty little secret. The opposing military faction that are trying to take over the Capital Wasteland were once their brothers and sisters and they now have to fight them directly.

    I feel the same about the Fallout 4 BOS. They are just in it because Bethesda's designers believe in constantly recycling the iconic elements from Fallout.
    The Cult of Personality surrounding Maxson's line is ridiculous and shows that the designers never understood the lore of Fallout 1 and 2 or were just set on "improving" it like so many writers and designers do these days with beloved franchises.
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  13. Lone Cat

    Lone Cat It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 8, 2012
    1. I can't recall The Pitt except that Ashur deserted the Order to become a city new boss. Who did the BoS fought against?
    2. And 'To collect all hitech pieces they came across' doesn't always mean they want to preserve it so it will stay, but also to be an agency regulating technology uses throughout the wastelands. (particularly banning access to military grade techs to the outsiders so to keep themselves a relevant knightly order and thus they can simply 'tax' any wasteland community in exchange of 'protections') See? their role of 'Tech keepers' aren't entirely alturistic, it has political usefulness later on. yet low on manpower means that they can't establish any active any form of governments in the Westcoast. with the virtue of The Lyons however, they did establish a solid form of legitimate state in Capitol Wasteland.
  14. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016


    I'm a huge fan of Fallout 3 and consider it five or six on my favorite video games of all time. It's not the game doesn't have flaws, it's just that I love the hybrid shooter-RPG's atmosphere and world-building. Nothing is more interesting than traveling around the wasteland, exploring, and shooting Deathclaws or Enclave.

    However, one of the things which has always bugged me is the criticism of the game which focuses on the black and white conflict between the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel. They claim the latter is treated as a group of white knights and heroes when they were previously a more ambiguous faction. I actually think the faction is a lot more nuanced than that or, if they were written as heroes, they're actually of a very dubious sort.

    The Brotherhood of Steel has been Fallout's signature organization since way back in Wasteland, Fallout's predecessor game. The Brotherhood of Steel, excepting Fallout: Tactics and the much less well-received Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, has never been the focus of the series. It's more like Wolverine from the X-men. Wolverine appears in virtually everything related to the X-men because he's, by far, their most popular member. This is toned down in Fallout: New Vegas where they're only side characters, much like in the original two Fallout games, but is in full-force during Fallout 3.

    Fallout's version of Gandalf
    What is the Brotherhood of Steel, you ask? Well if you don't know, you're probably not a fan of Fallout. Imagine a group of guys dressed up like Iron Man who can't fly but carry huge plasma rifles and wander through the Wasteland, killing monsters. Virtually every game has the player character either as a member of the organization or possessing the option for joining them. Only Fallout 2, I believe, has its main character never become a member. Instead, the Brotherhood just sort of watchs his actions and cryptically comments on them.

    The Brotherhood of Steel was never meant to be the good-guy faction of Fallout. They're actually a collection of morally ambiguous isolationists who, aside from the player character, don't associate with outsiders and don't do anything constructive. Far from going out into the Wasteland to right wrongs or fight mutants, the Brotherhood is supposed to have the mission of gathering technology from the Pre-War era. The Brotherhood, then, sits on it. They don't attempt to use it to rebuild humanity or anything constructive, they're only supposed to keep it from the hands of 'savages.'

    I.e anyone not them.

    This changed in Fallout: Tactics where the Mid-Western Brotherhood (to differentiate it from the one in California) had the option of becoming the pioneers of a new civilization in the Chicago area. We'll ignore Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel because of the circumstances of its publication and ill-reception have resulted in Bethesda declaring it non-canon but that game continued the trend of the Brothers ignoring their mission in order to bring order to the Wasteland.

    Then there was Fallout 3.

    Conquest of the Midwest.
    Fallout 3 is the most controversial game in the franchise with fans disagreeing violently over whether it was the best thing ever or the worst. Personally, I think it rescued the franchise from dying a slow-death and allowed the even-better Fallout: New Vegas to be created. One of the controversial elements to the game, however, was the use of the Brotherhood of Steel as the Ultimate Goods-GuysTM of the setting.

    In the game, your player ends up more or less conscripted into the Brotherhood of Steel towards the end. The character of Elder Lyons is depicted as a saintly Obi-Wan Kenobi type who leads the player characters to smash the evil Nazi-like Enclave and deliver fresh-water to the impoverished people of the Capital Wasteland. You can betray his trust and annihilate the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel towards the end but there's no reason to do this other than your character is a massive [censored]. Heck, the Broken Steel DLC implies his cute warrior-girl daughter has a crush on you if male.

    Compared to the more nuanced depiction of the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout: New Vegas, a lot of people have complained about the East Coast Brotherhood's depiction. They claim they are goody-two-shoes inappropriate to the Wasteland or traitors to the original concept. Fans have even gone so far as to state their preference for the Brotherhood's rivals in the Brotherhood Outcasts, a group of ex-Brotherhood members who seem to only exist for the purpose of insulting your character when encountered.

    They didn't sign up for being cannon fodder in Elder Lyon's war against the natives.
    In truth, I think Fallout 3 nicely re-introduces a lot of the controversies of the original Brotherhood of Steel while laying the groundwork for the organization's implied eventual collapse in Fallout: New Vegas to have meaning. I also think Elder Lyons and the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood have a great deal more moral ambiguity than fans might realize. The touches are small but deliberate, highlighting the group isn't quite such a paragon of virtue as might be thought.

    Don't get me wrong, I think Bethesda meant for the Brotherhood of Steel to be a positive organization in Fallout 3 but I think its depiction is deliberately tragic. They invoke Arthurian imagery all over the place, including Elder Lyons serving as a Merlin-like figure for the boy Arthur Maxson, who is heir to the Brotherhood of Steel's founder. The Brotherhood has abandoned strict interpretation of their code for a more humanitarian one, believing they should protect the innocent and allow volunteers to join their society instead of isolating themselves.

    This sounds all well and good but by the time you actually encounter Elder Lyons and his crew, they're a crumbling remnant of their former selves. Half of the organization has abandoned Elder Lyons, becoming the Brotherhood Outcasts, while an unknown number of its members have perished in a lengthy war against the Capital Wasteland's Super Mutants. The Brotherhood is still alive but only because of the recruits they 'acquired' in one of the more questionable actions in the series. In short, Bethesda has the protagonist of the game join a Camelot on its last legs.

    Madison Li and James built the Purifier. The Brotherhood of Steel, however, takes it as their own.
    This isn't necessarily a bad thing. After all, bad leadership does not mean moral ambiguity. Besides, everything can potentially work out for the Brotherhood in the end depending on the actions of the player character. You can defeat the Enclave, destroy the Super-Mutants, get the Brotherhood an Air Force base full of Pre-War technology, and even give them access to a Holy Grail of life-giving clean water in the radioactive desert that the Capital Wasteland has become. All's well that ends well.

    Or is it?

    One of the most delightfully subversive elements of Fallout 3 is its awareness of symbolism and the dangers of nostalgia. Fallout has always mocked 1950s utopianism, treating it as the racist fear-mongering time it was. However, Fallout 3 took this ball and ran with it. Everywhere in the Capital Wasteland are reminders of how backwards thinking and stasis resulted in the human race destroying itself.

    Sarah Lyons never stops to question her father's policies and encourages you to do the same.
    Yet, at the end of the game, you've given the Brotherhood of Steel effective control over the Capital Wasteland. The ending of the main part of the campaign was a conflict over, not whether the water purifier Maguffin of the game would be used, but who would control it. Both sides intend to use the resulting water as a form of bribery, trading it and military protection for fealty. The Brotherhood of Steel is just more nice about it. In short, your great accomplishment is re-introducing feudalism to the heart of America.

    The Brotherhood of Steel's ownership of the Purifier and plan to use it to "help" the Wastelanders is something the Lone Wanderer supports in a good karma ending but even in the game, it is questionable if it is a good thing. Madison Li, a far more intelligent woman than most wastelanders, strongly dislikes the Brotherhood's unilateral control over the device. If the Enclave had approached her with an offer to "protect" her as the Brotherhood did, the ending of the game could very well have been a reversal of events with no changes.

    Not happy with the Brotherhood of Steel.
    Indeed, the Brotherhood of Steel and Enclave are mirror images of each other in Fallout 3. Both want to rule the Capital Wasteland in order to "protect" its citizens. At least the Enclave forces under Colonel Autumn, who make a poor showing of convincing the Lone Wanderer and James to support them. Had Colonel Autumn better people skills then he might have actually been able to come to an accommodation with the family from Vault 101.

    The DLC known as The Pitt can take this one step further. Your character can discover Elder Lyons "scoured" a city of degenerates clean of virtually all-life and one of his paladins stayed behind to keep order. Said paladin became infatuated with the idea of restoring civilization and reintroduces slavery in order to rebuild the city of Pittsburgh. You have the option of overthrowing him and taking his place, making yourself a King in the Wasteland.

    Elder Lyons believes he is of a superior culture and this justifies killing or ruling less "civilized" beings.
    Indeed, Elder Lyons has a history of serving as a somewhat condescending imperialist to the Capital Wasteland. Not only does he unilaterally seize control over the most precious resource in the Commonwealth (the Purifer) but he also proceeds to dictate how it is distributed to the public. When he encountered the Pitt, Elder Lyons slaughtered the entirety of the population there out of a sense of disgust for their mutated savage ways. The "cleansing" of the Pitt reminds me, in retrospect of Mister House doing the same to Freeside.

    Given the Brotherhood of Steel under Elder Lyons self-righteously destroyed the people of the Pitt for their offensive morality (one brought about due to circumstances beyond their control due to the toxins the environment), kidnapped their children (except for the mutated ones), and has his men take pot-shots at ghouls for their deformities - they're not really nearly as nice a bunch as they might initially appear. Worse, they're people who believe their actions are absolutely justified. There's nothing more dangerous than a self-righteous crusader IMHO.

    Food for thought.
  15. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    1. They sent Lyons across the desert BEFORE.

    2. They've gotten rid of idealistic members by sending them on suicide missions before. See Fallout: Tactics' intro.

    Go to 6:10

    3. The NCR-Brotherhood War is introduced AFTER Fallout 3 so if it had happened that would be shitty writing by Obsidian.
  16. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    We don't even know if Fallout Tactics is even canon.

    "Shortly after the destruction of the Enclave, a war broke out between the Brotherhood and the NCR.". From the Fallout wiki.

    The war with the Enclave ended in 2246. The expedition to the East Coast happened in 2254. That's a 8 year gap.

    They were in a losing war, it doesn't matter if they sent someone before. They were very low on manpower and resources. No matter which way you wanna twist, it makes no sense for BoS to be in the East Coast, period.

    And it's shitty writing from the Bethesda side because New Vegas is on the West Coast, you know, where the war actually started. Bethesda forcing BoS to be in the East Coast just contradicts that. In New Vegas, it's said the war has been going for decades.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  17. TheHouseAlwaysWins

    TheHouseAlwaysWins Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 28, 2015
    Fallout New Vegas came out after Fallout 3.
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  18. Cliffy McEdgeface

    Cliffy McEdgeface bitch I will cut you

    Jun 28, 2018
    I'll be honest, I preferred the BoS in 3 to be a splinter renegade sect (Lyons' Pride) because to me the BoS pretty much embody what we see in the FO3 "Outcasts" and F:NV - lawful neutral to a fault, tech hoarding glorified raiders and generally kind of dickish (Veronica notwithstanding, she's pretty ok for a BoS member). The FO4 BoS is just too damn lawful evil, though.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  19. Pwener

    Pwener FEV is the equivalent of a chest x-ray.

    Aug 15, 2017
    Yes it freaking matters if they were sent before the war broke out. Stop handwaving away things that support what you're against.

    So yes, it does matter if they were sent before the war started. It matters immensely. I get you don't like F3 @Norzan but you're just coming off as unreasonable by disregarding valid points in F3's favor.

    Bethesda might not have taken the war into account and later Obsidian decided to make it canon. The NCR/BoS war is Van Buren information. It doesn't come from an actual canonical game. Hell, Van Buren only exists in demo form right here on this website, right? It's non canon as non canon gets.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  20. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    Did you actually read my post? The war with the NCR started SHORTLY after the Enclave was destroyed. There was a 8 years gap between the start of the war and the expedition.

    And it doesn't matter, really. It's an expedition across the ENTIRE WASTELAND. They would die either of radiation or deathclaws and other hostile enemies. It's fucking stupid to waste a ton of resources and men to just cross the wasteland.

    Not to mention Fallout 3 CONTRADICTS itself by saying they were there to contact the Midwest BoS but then say later it was to find lost technology in the Capital Wasteland. Fallout 3 can't even follow its own bullshit.

    Except New Vegas treats information of Van Buren as canon by literally using a ton from Van Buren. Not to mention, Bethesda never said it was not canon. When they come out and say it's not canon, then i'll treat it as not canon. Until then it's canon because New Vegas treats it as so.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
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