What are people's thoughts on how the Brotherhood is depicted in 3 and 4?

the Legion didn't even exist when Fallout 3 came out outisde of concept ideas for Van Buren which is where New Vegas got them from so if anything that's a fault in New Vegas and not Fallout 3.
Wut? The Caesar's Legion was founded in 2247, SEVEN years before the expedition by BoS to the East Coast. Do you actually do any research? If you don't, just stop, you are looking clearly stupid in this conversation.

And even if they didn't existed, there's still all the tribes in the place the Legion would be if Bethesda didn't take that into account. So it changes nothing really, there's still tons of people BoS would have to cross to reach the East Coast.

Now Bethesda treats it as canon and Bethesda had a say on what was supposed to be canon or not in New Vegas. Now the Legion is canon to the universe and it was accepted by Bethesda. So now this is the fault of Bethesda, not Obsidian.

Risewild supported his arguments with ingame examples. Holy shit, you can't argue for shit. Being selective and purposely ignoring stuff. Yeah, i'm done with this since you are hellbent on doing this.
 
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I mentioned there are also other mutated beings, not just those two. There are also the Caesar's Legion, raiders and other many hostile enemies.

Here are the main points to why Brotherhood of Steel crossing the wasteland makes no sense:

- They are low on manpower and resources. They are not dancing around in power armor and soldiers. It's said several times that the Brotherhood of Steel is pretty much struggling everywhere.

- Walking around in power armor doesn't exactly make you mobile and sneaky, now doesn't it? You would be easily spotted.

- The eventuality of running out of ammo and food. Like said above, they are low on resources. A trek so long like going to the East Coast would require a ton of resources, something they don't have.

- Who's to say many of the raiders and tribles don't have laser weaponry? They could have. Not in much supply, but they could easily have them. Laser weaponry does hurt power armor.

Crossing the damn country with such cons is nigh impossible.


You do know they say they have the numbers? BoS eventually runs out of ammo because there's not enough ammo to kill so many soldiers. This is the case of victory by much superior numbers. The NCR also has weaponry that can damage power, power armor doesn't make you indestructible to everything.

- Resources can be scavenged like EVERYONE ELSE, bro.
- Mobility is not required. Not all BoS have to be in Power Armor.
- Raiders are uneducated, untrained, morons. They usually have no armor on.
-RUNNING OUT OF FOOD AND WATER IS OK WHEN YOU STEAL WHAT YOU WANT FROM THE PEOPLE YOU KILL.

Not only is it possible, but everyone else is doing it.


You mean his post full of assumptions? He talks like the city of Chicago is a whole state that you can't go around. Furthermore, the Legion didn't even exist when Fallout 3 came out outisde of concept ideas for Van Buren which is where New Vegas got them from so if anything that's a fault in New Vegas and not Fallout 3.

I agree with this part.

Is it because I was in the military that I know how you could use these BoS and destroy everything left alive? You understand they aren't all running around in suits at all time correct? It doesn't matter how many there are. Take 50 BoS troops, a decent cache of supplies to get started, and hit every military base and high value site on the way to D.C. You guys are WAY too used to playing shitty NuFallout sadly.

You know the one with the Power Armor like this..

https://media.giphy.com/media/aNHE0JJtd17oI/giphy.gif

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The Legion were not spread across the entire region. A few dudes could get through no problem.
 
Wut? The Caesar's Legion was founded in 2247, SEVEN years before the expedition by BoS to the East Coast. Do you actually do any research? If you don't, just stop, you are looking clearly stupid in this conversation.

Oh my god are you clinically retarded or just messing with me?!

Of course the Legion didn't exist in Fallout 3 because it was Obsidian years later who introduced them as a canon faction! As for these "tribes," they also didn't exist as far as Fallout 3 is concerned. And what are they gonna do? Throw rocks and spears at the heavily armored walking tanks?

You see, it is the job of a later entry in a series to take into account past lore and make sure newer additions don't contradict anything. Thus, you and @Risewild are badmouthing Obsidian and not Bethesda.
 
- Resources can be scavenged like EVERYONE ELSE, bro.
In a wasteland with very few resources? Doubt it.

Mobility is not required. Not all BoS have to be in Power Armor.
So they lose their main mode of protection? They die even faster then.

Raiders are uneducated, untrained, morons. They usually have no armor on.
But they have numbers and will eventually wear them down. Who's to say all of them were morons? A lot of these could easily be trained warriors who decided to become raiders.

RUNNING OUT OF FOOD AND WATER IS OK WHEN YOU STEAL WHAT YOU WANT FROM THE PEOPLE YOU KILL.
That would mean if whoever they kill even has food or water to begin with. Not to mention mutated beings roaming around.

Again, BoS has been struggling before the expedition. It's said by the time of Fallout 2, they were nowhere as strong as they were before and they were already struggling. They wouldn't have the manpower and resources for such a heavy trek across the entire wasteland and Bethesda blatantly ignored this to have BoS in the East Coast.
 
If they were sent after the War, presumably, it was to ensure continuity of the BOS if they were wiped out.
 
In a wasteland with very few resources? Doubt it.
So they lose their main mode of protection? They die even faster then.
But they have numbers and will eventually wear them down. Who's to say all of them were morons? A lot of these could easily be trained warriors who decided to become raiders.
That would mean if whoever they kill even has food or water to begin with. Not to mention mutated beings roaming around.

Ok, so you don't understand tactics or warfare. Gotcha.

Who says they didn't wear them down? Fucking Ashur was COVERED IN RUBBLE. Bethesda did convey it was not easy to make it there. Truly they were not meant to go that far. Hate Bethesda for logical reasons. Hate them for using the BoS if you must (I do), but saying they could NOT do it is silly when you have...







I just think some of you have blinders to the fact that Raiders are a bunch of pussies. The Mutants were too thinned out in the center region of the US to pose a huge threat. This is a small amount of people going through enemy territory. Not that unlike the Crusades, several thousand miles from home, in a hostile desert environment, under equipped with heavy armor on.

Running low on supplies? Kill That Gecko over there. Thirsty? This suit can refiltrate my piss. Hahaha.
 
Ok, so you don't understand tactics or warfare. Gotcha.
Understanding real world warfare and war in a post apocalyptic world are two completely different things. The franchise has shown since the beginning that the wasteland kicks everyone's ass regardless of how well equipped you are.
I just think some of you have blinders to the fact that Raiders are a bunch of pussies.
This seems to imply all raiders are the same. Also, showing gameplay where the AI of the Fallout games is rather notorious for being dumb doesn't help anyone's case. Not every raider or any enemy for that matter is that dumb.

Again, the BoS was struggling by the time of Fallout 2, they wouldn't have the resources and manpower to take a trek across the whole damn country. And this not taking into account the whole NCR-BoS war which made things for BoS even worse. You can have the best equipment but you don't have enough food and water and other mandatory resources to do such a heavy trek, then you won't survive.

There's also a ton of items in games that are shown to be overpowered in a gameplay context, but they can easily be destroyed in a story context. Like it's shown several times that people with power armor can die, they are not indestructible.

The crusades also had enough resources to supply entire armies or else they wouldn't even go.

I'm honestly tired of arguing the same shit over and over, so i'm done here.
 
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It is essentially arguing the same shit with no facts to support it. You think there might be better groups of Raiders that don't exist (?) to cause the BoS to dwindle down to nothing. I think the BoS would stumble upon resources (?) to scavenge to survive. We are both full of shit. Good day sir.

:monocle:
 
I do want to say one final thing: putting BoS in Fallout 3 really accomplished nothing. All this crap of turning them into paladins of good amounted to nothing really except anger from a lot of fans. Bethesda made them into assholes in Fallout 4, except they went too far with the assholery. And turning them into paladins of good just made them extremely boring and lose their mystique.

They can't write BoS for shit when they decide to change them and when they decide to make them like they are in the first two games and New Vegas. Impressive feat of terrible writing.
 
I do want to say one final thing: putting BoS in Fallout 3 really accomplished nothing. All this crap of turning them into paladins of good amounted to nothing really except anger from a lot of fans. Bethesda made them into assholes in Fallout 4, except they went too far with the assholery. And turning them into paladins of good just made them extremely boring and lose their mystique.

They can't write BoS for shit when they decide to change them and when they decide to make them like they are in the first two games and New Vegas. Imressive feat of terrible writing.
Totally agree. If they went to D.C, found Liberty Prime, and then locked up the Citadel and said FUCK YOU CAPITAL WASTELAND...that would have been totally in character and better received here I think.
 
Bethesda could and should have simply designed a new faction. Make them paladins of the wastes, give them power armor, give them Pentagon, flesh out the details and their history and you're good to go without having BoS. Again.
What you do next is put them into a desperate situation because, say, the faction split into two during a civil war so you have another faction that is different enough to justify an ongoing conflict, but similar enough in tech and power to be a real danger, and look cool. All of this without having Enclave. Again.

So what you've accomplished here is you've solved several issues at once:
You have cool and unique new factions.
You have new power armor for iconic gamebox cover.
You have at least two potential factions your player can join.
You have good/bad/grey morality within those two major factions.
You have a central conflict that pushes the narrative forward.
You don't unnecessarily reuse old lore elements for the sake of them being iconic and nothing more.


I dislike FO3's BoS because I like the idea of a faction trying to protect the people from the dangers of the wasteland. A faction fighting a desperate war for the good of others, and for themselves. A faction that can seem lawful good on the surface, but is actually nuanced and has many layers to it. A faction whose HQ is Pentagon ruin that have been rebuilt into a fucking medieval-like fortress. A faction that has a huge war robot to fight for them.

That faction should not have been BoS.
 
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My thoughts if you want to know them, not sure which games are those 3 and 4 you guys have apparently all played. It can't be Fallout since there never were any Fallout 3 and 4. So if the BOS's name was ripped off for these unknown games you are violently arguing about, well who care, isn't Fallout lore technically free for anyone nowaday?
I mean, if Bethesda can spoil a 'fallout' name, why can't whoever who made the games you are talking about do the same? Why can't any of you, any of us really?

Let's all have a toast.
 
It seems you are ignoring Risewild's arguments on purpose. Not gonna argue with you from now on if you are gonna purposely ignore critical information that shits on your arguments.


Here for you to read. Read before spouting nonsense. BoS is pretty much struggling everywhere, Fallout 3 and New Vegas clearly state this.

And until Bethesda says otherwise, the NCR-BoS war happened BEFORE the expedition to the East Coast because New Vegas treats it as canon.

Exactly. Letting an entire chapter walk away while Maxson State is getting destroyed by the NCR, forcing the council of elders to retreat underground, is utterly stupid. They NEED as many heavy units as possible right now, for obvious reasons. A one year trip to the east for hypothethical rewards (that wouldn't be acquired before years anyway) would be the last of their priorities.

But even if Lyons left before the war. He didn't go back to help his only nation when he heard it was getting exterminated (but yet, goes all white knight when witnessing the problems that the DC population struggles with, by their own choice ?), and neither did the so-called "outcasts", aka fanatics and loyalists to the elders. That doesn't make sense.


As for the dangers of walking the wasteland ; 86 tribes in 4 states only. And not only backward tribals, no no no. Even Lanius, who is confident about being able to crush the freaking NCR, describes the eastern front as "difficult". In other words, the path to the east is paved with dozens, if not hundreds of hostile nations, some of them dangerous enough to make Lanius hesitate about poking them in the eye. We know that even the lowest of the lowest, the Fiends, know how to use laser weapons. 155mm Howitzers were held by tribals under Caesar's lands... Hell, Caesar's men are not afraid of the NCR because their previous wars were just as brutal. They don't exactly run away in fear and terror, screaming about a dragon in the sky, when they witness a bomber dropping death from above. That says something about what they saw, prior to the conflict in the Mojave.
We know that some tribes also don't hesitate to use their own power armors. Fallout 4 has raider power armors, Fallout 2 had tribals wearing power armors parts, and Fallout New Vegas had Lanius wearing something very close to a modern power armor, and Caesar's Legion isn't exactly good when it comes to technology. And even them can build a power armor.
And even if the brotherhood manages to slip through ; here comes the radioactive tornadoes, and even more dangerous tribes such as the beastmasters, who can tame freaking deathclaws to do their bidding.

Then... the midwest brotherhood. With its dozens of bunkers, vehicles, auxiliaries everywhere, and possibly the freaking calculator and its army of killing machines (who can also contact the council of elders now that Lyons has established a radio line, which causes HUGE problems, since they know that the NCR is killing anything remotely related to the brotherhood, on sight, and yet don't take any kind of action). Entire cities under their feudal rule, and yet, Lyons couldn't find them, unlike Caesar's freaking scouts. Spear throwing, skirt wearing runners can find the midwest scribes, yet Lyons, with an entire chapter, can't find an entire nation while walking through it. It is simply unbelievable.

And it makes Fallout 3's brotherhood impossible, since any contact with the midwest would have changed EVERYTHING. Lyons would have told them about the situation with the NCR. Or Lyons would have joined them. Or Lyons would have been exterminated, and the midwest would have sent its own troops to find Liberty Prime (they fought a war against a robot army before taking control of it, for pete's sake. They witnessed mind transfer from one of their generals to a machine. They wouldn't let Lyons take it, because if any faction in the country has a reason to care about killing machines, it's the midwest brotherhood.)

He talks like the city of Chicago is a whole state that you can't go around.
Squires from the midwest brotherhood were spotted by Caesar's scouts east of the Colorado though. The Colorado and Chicago aren't exactly close, the midwest seems to have quite a huge area of influence. By the very begining of Tactics, they were already expanding south of Chicago (isn't Macon about halfway between St.Louis and Chicago ? And it's one of the first real towns the midwest brotherhood clears). That, and the fact that entire cities are under feudal rule and would have told Lyons about the midwest, even if the old fart couldn't find them on his own.
 
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Oh great, someone else who thinks New Vegas existed before Fallout 3. Oh lord...
 
Oh great, someone else who thinks New Vegas existed before Fallout 3. Oh lord...
Are you talking about Todd Howard ? He greenlit New Vegas, and included everything in the official lore, including things that concern the events before Fallout 3. If Bethesda didn't want things to be added in the timeline of events pre-Fallout 3, they could have told Obsidian to shove it. They didn't. At the second they greenlit it, it stops being a subjective fanfiction and it becomes part of the whole thing, past events included : the NCR-BoS war, the conquest of the 86 tribes etc.
The timeline events can be changed by future titles, and new events added to it, if greenlit by Bethesda. Not my fault. They read the dialogues -including the ones mentioning the midwest brotherhood- before agreeing to let Obsidian include them in the game. They even added some, with Cpt.Kells mentioning the midwest's zeppelins.

I'm not sure I get your argument, to be honest. If tomorrow, Bethesda decides to have the original general Maxson in Fallout 76, and make him a married man, then Maxson was a married man in the events pre-Fallout 1. Doesn't mean that Fallout 76 came out before F1, it simply means that it added stuff to the timeline. Same thing for NV in regards to F3.
 
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Are you talking about Todd Howard ? He greenlit New Vegas, and included everything in the official lore, including things that concern the events before Fallout 3. If Bethesda didn't want things to be added in the timeline of events pre-Fallout 3, they could have told Obsidian to shove it. They didn't. At the second they greenlit it, it stops being a subjective fanfiction and it becomes part of the whole thing, past events included : the NCR-BoS war, the conquest of the 86 tribes etc.
The timeline events can be changed by future titles, and new events added to it, if greenlit by Bethesda. Not my fault. They read the dialogues -including the ones mentioning the midwest brotherhood- before agreeing to let Obsidian include them in the game. They even added some, with Cpt.Kells mentioning the midwest's zeppelins.

I'm not sure I get your argument, to be honest. If tomorrow, Bethesda decides to have the original general Maxson in Fallout 76, and make him a married man, then Maxson was a married man in the events pre-Fallout 1. Doesn't mean that Fallout 76 came out before F1, it simply means that it added stuff to the timeline. Same thing for NV in regards to F3.

You think Bethesda cares about lore contradictions towards Fallout 3 in New Vegas? They set up Obsidian to fail for crying out loud. But you and @Norzan both come out incredibly stupid - yes stupid - by criticizing lore in a game that came out in 2008 because of the lore added in a game that came out in 2010 due to the latter's lore contradicting the previous one. That's just dumb.

Who cares if Bethesda approved it or looked the other way. I don't care about Bethesda. Bethesda Bethesda Bethesda. That's all people bring up. We're talking about lore continuity and it should have been Obsidian, not Bethesda, that did their homework to prevent these so-called "contradictions."
 
Because New Vegas saying the NCR beat the BoS at Helios is dumb as shit.

I guess it is a prime example of show don't tell.

Prove to us that the NCR can survive Gauss Rifles and kill BoS with 5.56 rounds.

The issue is they made Power Armor weak in the FPS Fallout games. Now it is like armor instead of like a tank.
It's actually well explained. The BOS is lower in numbers, trying to defend a location surrounded by mountains on all sides with no sources of food or water nearby. Power Armor is vulnerable to EMP pulses and anti tank rifles (of which the NCR has quite a few) can punch through the Power Armor, not to mention explosives and hit and run tactics. Eventually they would just run out of ammo and resources to keep themselves alive while being holed up in an old building. The NCR can retreat and replace their forces much more easily and the way out is a bottle neck.
 
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