Did you actually read my post? The war with the NCR started SHORTLY after the Enclave was destroyed. There was a 8 years gap between the start of the war and the expedition.
Where the hell did you get this from?! The wiki doesn't say when the war started. No year, no dates. Stop making stuff up.
The wiki says; "Sometime after the destruction of the Enclave in 2242, a war broke out between the Brotherhood and the NCR. The exact year is unknown."
See that? That's all we know on why and how the war started and it's from a non canonical source. Not even Van Buren gives us a date.
Not to mention Fallout 3 CONTRADICTS itself by saying they were there to contact the Midwest BoS but then say later it was to find los technology in the Capital Wasteland. Fallout 3 can't even follow its own bullshit.
I'd have to look this up. But the BoS' mission has always been to recover technology. Even with a primary mission I would assume tech-recovery is always present as a secondary prerogative. They did so in the Pitt. Lyons ordered the place purged of scumbags yet they took an as of yet unknown piece of tech from there.
Van Buren isn't canon and will never be canon. Are you insane? Fallout 3 takes things from Van Buren too like the Trogs but it doesn't make a ten minute demo canon. Are you jesting? I can't take this last bit seriously.
Yes, but we know that the EBOS lost contact suddenly with Lost Hills after they made it across the country. Most likely, that was when the war with the NCR and BOS began.
The war with the Enclave ended in 2246. The expedition to the East Coast happened in 2254. That's a 8 year gap.
Yes, when dealing with 200 years from the war, 10 years is "shortly."
They were in a losing war, it doesn't matter if they sent someone before. They were very low on manpower and resources. No matter which way you wanna twist, it makes no sense for BoS to be in the East Coast, period.
They obviously sent the East Coast Brotherhood before. NV is a sequel to Fallout 3 and thus must conform to its timeline.
And it's shitty writing from the Bethesda side because New Vegas is on the West Coast, you know, where the war actually started. Bethesda forcing BoS to be in the East Coast just contradicts that. In New Vegas, it's said the war has been going for decades.
I should remind people the BOS isn't going to Washington D.C. for shits and giggles. They were sent there to get the records of the Pentagon in hopes of finding more power armor and other vital pre-war technology, which they did in Liberty Prime.
It's just Elder Lyons decided to play White SaviorTM.
I should remind people the BOS isn't going to Washington D.C. for shits and giggles. They were sent there to get the records of the Pentagon in hopes of finding more power armor and other vital pre-war technology, which they did in Liberty Prime.
It's just Elder Lyons decided to play White SaviorTM.
How can we say Tactics is not canon when they left California to LOOK FOR THE MIDWESTERN BOS!? The Legion points out the BoS scouts they found around the region did not even know the Elder back West. I wonder who them dudes might be? I wonder where those fucking Zeppelins came from in 4? Gee I wonder why they mentioned Chicago in New Vegas? Do you guys need someone to come out and say "TACTICS STUFF HAPPENED" before it is taken as fact?
So fans can debate over it until they maybe possibly decide to say something about it one day in the future. Maybe in the game that features Chicago (or Detroit) I hope.
People will point out these aren't the same. I tend to think someone at Bethesda keeps throwing in references to Tactics because it is essential to the Lyon's BoS being in the region.
NMA was screwed from the start with people nitpicking minor story details they don't specifically like. Instead of focusing on why the game really sucks like mediocre writing, first person view, very little C&C, etc; we nitpicked whether there are enough Mole Rats in a 5 mile radius of Megaton to properly supply food to the people inside....
I understand not wanting the BOS to be in the game, or preferring them the old way, but if the BoS being Knights of the Round was the WORST part of Fallout 3, we would have been all good.
Fallout Tactics, when referenced by existing titles, can be considered a secondary source. Even then, it is limited to high level events (as explained by Emil Pagliarulo to our founder).[6] Currently, the only events referenced in the game are the presence of a small, rogue detachment of the Brotherhood in Chicago[7]that has been battling super mutants in the city (a retcon of Tactics, where super mutants were fought in Missouri, starting with St. Louis),[8] and arrived there by airship.[9]
Note: The reference to super mutants in Chicago is an explicit retcon, as the super mutants in Fallout: Tactics were fought first at St. Louis, more than 250 miles south of Chicago.
This is nonsense. Saying they fought Mutants in Chicago is correct because they clearly meant to reference Tactics for one. They probably watched the intro and said "TACTICS REFERENCE" and called it good. Barring that explanation you have the obvious answer being the Mutants were spread across the region because...well they were. They act like 250 miles is a long way. The fucking BoS trekked across the entire UNITED STATES. HAHAHA.
So the only thing that for sure DID NOT happen that we know of is Calculators army spreading across the wasteland and making enough of an impact for anyone to notice. We know the Midwestern BoS does not possess the Calculators technology or the Enclave would not exist in Chicago, they would be dead. I lean towards Tactics got Enclave power armor from that region for a reason and that is why they were mentioned in New Vegas. Actually I would like to ask the writers of New Vegas about that.
Ashur didn't really deserted, he was abandoned in the Pitt under some rubble after an explosion and the BoS considered him dead. Some tribe members tried to loot his Power Armor and freed him from the rubble, when they saw him still alive they considered him some kind of godly figure.
The BoS fought the trogs, the wildmen, the raider and slaver tribes. They were very evil, sadistic and perverted. So Elder Lyons decided to cleanse the Pitt, and launched a coordinated attack that lasted one day (or night, I would have to refresh my memory on this) and cleared most evil out of the place.
2. And 'To collect all hitech pieces they came across' doesn't always mean they want to preserve it so it will stay, but also to be an agency regulating technology uses throughout the wastelands. (particularly banning access to military grade techs to the outsiders so to keep themselves a relevant knightly order and thus they can simply 'tax' any wasteland community in exchange of 'protections') See? their role of 'Tech keepers' aren't entirely alturistic, it has political usefulness later on. yet low on manpower means that they can't establish any active any form of governments in the Westcoast. with the virtue of The Lyons however, they did establish a solid form of legitimate state in Capitol Wasteland.
But once again, the game is very explicit about why Elder Lyons helps the Capital Wasteland, it is not to reinforce their power it is just because he honestly wants to help the people in the Capital wasteland. He even says it has costed him too much, but he has no regrets because he also saved many, and improved the Capital Wastelanders lives:
When I came here, I realized for the first time that the Brotherhood's technology could truly save the survivors in this Wasteland.
I chose to help them, even if it meant putting the Brotherhood's interests at risk. Some of my soldiers called me a hero. Others called me a traitor.
The dissenters left my command, calling themselves Outcasts to mock me. I cannot fault their dedication, even if I find them lacking in compassion.
Lone Wanderer:
I thought the protection of humanity was a part of the Brotherhood's oaths. Elder Lyons:
Only in a very broad sense. The Brotherhood's oaths are to protect humanity's progress, but not necessarily every human.
The Outcasts - and members of the Brotherhood in other places - consider it a waste to protect most people.
"After all," they say, "everyone knows how to make another human, but the secrets to making a P94 Plasma Rifle are all but lost."
Has it been worth the cost in lives and resources to protect people like you from the Super Mutants?
You tell me. I suspect my daughter's squad helped save your life. And most of our recent recruits have come from those we've saved over the years.
It's cost us, but we've saved many lives and made the Capital Wasteland a place where people can live. Yes, I'd say that's been worth it.
Our orders were, and are, to acquire any and all advanced technology. And we have, to the best of our abilities.
But when I realized the extent of the Super Mutant threat, I felt it was my responsibility to aid the people in their struggle against them.
Unfortunately, my superiors back west disagree with my assessment of the situation. They feel I've grown too "attached" to the local populace.
And they're right.
The Western Elders cease to acknowledge my existence. Some of my own people have even gone Outcast.
And now... the Enclave. Technologically superior. Infinitely resourceful. The time has come to pass the mantle to more able hands. But is she ready?
I cannot I will not allow the Enclave to control the one thing that could bring even the slightest spark of hope to these people.
Scribe Rothchild:
Much has happened in the 23 years since we left the west coast. Our mission has changed in that time.
The changes have not all been pleasant, and have had significant repercussions. Lone Wanderer:
What kind of changes? Scribe Rothchild:
We were dispatched with a specific mission. We were sent to locate and secure any technology remaining from before the war.
Like our robotic monstrosity. That was our greatest find. Damn thing still doesn't work, but at least it's ours.
But those damned Super Mutants... They changed things. Lyons changed.
He decided they were a threat. Not just to us, but to everyone. And so he altered the mission.
Finding the source of the mutants and putting a stop to them was his goal. Our original mission became an afterthought. We've failed both.
Lone Wanderer:
You make saving people sound like a bad thing. Scribe Rothchild:
It wasn't why we were sent here. Good or bad has nothing to do with it.
Lyons knew that, but ignored it. He decided it was more important to save the people here than to obey orders from his superiors.
For years he'd try and persuade them to send reinforcements and supplies, all the while stringing them along, saying he was sticking to the mission.
Finally, things came to a head. Lyons directly refused orders, and so the West Coast cut us off. No communications, no reinforcements.
Yes, but we know that the EBOS lost contact suddenly with Lost Hills after they made it across the country. Most likely, that was when the war with the NCR and BOS began.
They didn't lost contact, they got cut off on purpose because Elder Lyons disobeyed direct orders. So the East Coast BoS stopped their transmissions. Elder Lyons used to contact them and ask for more troops and equipment, but once they find out he disobeyed their orders, they just stopped answering.
Check the last quotes from that spoiler and these next ones:
Lone Wanderer:
It must be difficult to communicate with the West Coast. Scribe Rothchild:
Indeed it is. Especially when they refuse any attempts at communication.
i looked it up and the Lyons group was dispatched right after the war with the enclave and their goal was to reconnect with the Midwestern brotherhood of steel and they just kept going.
You need to look it up harder.
The Lyons group left Lost Hill in 2254, the war with the Enclave started in 2246 and lasted a few years at most. Since the sources do not say when the war ended, but they do say it was a very short and easy war for the NCR/BOS (definitely not 8 years). For reference, World War 1 lasted 4 years and World War 2 lasted 6 years and no one will say they were short and easy wars.
The "NCR - Brotherhood war" started immediately after the "NCR/BOS - Enclave war" (sources say).
For them to be dispatched right after the "NCR/BOS - Enclave war", it would have to be around 2247-2250 (lets say the war lasted 4 years to be generous). But sources also say that they were dispatched in 2254, so they were already dispatched (at least) 4 years into the war with NCR.
Lewis and Clark didn't need to cross the country dodging all kinds of mutated giant insects that wanted to have them as a snack, didn't have to pass through legion territory, didn't have to fight entire raider groups, didn't have to avoid deathclaws and yao-guai bands, didn't have to cross a wasteland where most stuff wants to eat them, etc. They also had plenty of food available from the animals that lived there, in a wasteland you might not find any food easily.
Also Lewis and Clark expedition was financed directly from the government and from private donors, they could afford to send Lewis all over the place to study with the most renowned people in their fields in the USA to learn all the stuff he would need to know, they could afford to make silver medals and other gifts as peace offerings to the native tribes they would encounter, so the natives would help them, they had plenty of supplies and had more than one year to prepare and learn, they would also be passing by plenty of settled land with peaceful people in it.
They also had several books, texts and documents from several previous explorers giving them insight on the route to take and how to deal with the track, etc.
It is documented that without the help of the peaceful natives, their expedition would have failed several times (specially during winter).
They also had at least 30 people in their expedition, all trained and equipped for it.
And even with all of this, it took them years to complete the expedition.
The brotherhood doesn't have the numbers or resources to manage outposts through the USA, even in fallout 3 Elder Lyons say they are struggling in the East Coast. They were always depicted as few in numbers and with just small 1 to 2 men outposts in some settlements in the East. Even the Midwest BoS was struggling and had to "force" (give us what we want and we will protect/save you) settlements and tribes there to regularly supply fresh recruits and supplies.
The assumption there is the vast majority of territory is nothing but death and destruction when even the Capital Wasteland, the single most hellish spot in America save the Glow or Glowing Sea, has numerous communities and thriving settlements despite graphics limitations. The Brotherhood of Steel is not making a continent-sized forced march across nothing but death and despair but undoubtedly interacting with tribes and communities across the way. Also, even if they're just walking, there's innumerable caravans that make it across the Wasteland just fine.
And they aren't an army. Any Raiders or whoever who attack an entire chapter of the BOS deserves whatever they get.
The assumption there is the vast majority of territory is nothing but death and destruction when even the Capital Wasteland, the single most hellish spot in America save the Glow or Glowing Sea, has numerous communities and thriving settlements despite graphics limitations. The Brotherhood of Steel is not making a continent-sized forced march across nothing but death and despair but undoubtedly interacting with tribes and communities across the way. Also, even if they're just walking, there's innumerable caravans that make it across the Wasteland just fine.
And they aren't an army. Any Raiders or whoever who attack an entire chapter of the BOS deserves whatever they get.
There is not much of an assumption in some areas, they would have to pass by Legion Territory, which kills BoS on sight. This territory is quite large, I don't think a BoS contingent would be able to sneak through all of this.
Caesar conquered 86 warrior tribes in what was just 4 states of the USA. I think this is a good basis to see how many hostile/warrior tribes exist in the wasteland.
It was said that before Caesar conquered all of them, the place was a chaotic hellhole where tribes were always at war with each other.
Also looking at all the Fallout games, the USA is full of dangers that usually attack first and ask questions later. Pennsylvania is a hellhole, where only "The Pitt" is safe, Maryland is another hellhole, with little or no civilization progressing in there, while full of aggressive mutated wild life and "swampfolk", the NCR territory is also not safe outside the safety of their walled settlements (mentioned in FNV), Utah was embroiled in a tribal war, Massachusetts is a hellhole where you can't walk more than 20 meters before Super Mutants, Raiders, feral ghouls or any other mutated creature attacks you, Maine is a radioactive hellhole just like the rest of places already mentioned, Chicago is another hellhole where the rogue BoS has trouble prospering, and for all we know they were already destroyed or have a very small and negligible presence, since Elder Lyons group couldn't even find them at all, Texas is a hellhole where hostile ghouls and Super Mutants threaten the wasteland, etc.
This is almost (or maybe even more than) half of the USA already, all depicted as violent, chaotic, hellish, dangerous, deadly.
And you're trying to tell me that in the rest of the USA territory, the place will be mostly safe for travel, with caravans and safe settlements?
Also, the Capital Wasteland is not the single most hellish spot in America (you're using headcanon again), The Pitt and Massachusetts was way worst as said in Fallout 3 for example. Another example is that Dr Zimmer says that appart the Institute, the Commonwealth is as bad as the Capital Wasteland (and in Fallout 4 it seems pretty much the same or even worst as in the number of enemies).
And the game doesn't say anything about it either, it just says that Elder Lyons saw that the people living here were in a worst condition than people living in the West Coast because of the Super Mutants, so Elder Lyons decided to help people, by defeating the Super Mutants.
I was gonna explain why but Risewild already did. Brotherhood of Steel being in the East Coast is stupid and extremely retarded, the end. People trying to argue otherwise are just wasting their breath. You can be fine with them being in the game, but don't try to find any solid reason for them to be in the game because there are none.
They are just in the game for fanservice, not because Bethesda wanted to do something unique with them. Funny that all it did was piss off the fans by turning them into paladins of good and then they kneejerked and turned them into even bigger assholes in Fallout 4 compared to how they were in the first two games and New Vegas.
Risewild already explained why this statement is stupid, but did you seriously compared a wasteland filled with monsters, radiation, big gatherings of raiders and warring tribes that can easily kill a guy in power armor to the United States in 1800s? God, i forgot how fucking stupid your arguments were.
I'm sorry but the idea the Brotherhood of Steel would have a problem getting to Washington D.C. with power armor and laser rifles is STUPID. Yes, Bloodbugs kill people armored like fucking tanks? Really? That's the argument everyone assumes is working?
It's not like Caesar's Legion could do anything about them either. Their guns wouldn't be able to penetrate their armor. We seem to be forgetting the Power Armor of the games is in-story as well as out of story incredibly powerful gear.
So much so that the NCR, a modern military, lost 10-1 fighting them.
CT Phipps, you are a writter, I would tought you'd understand the difference between Realism and Internal logic. I mean, it's like the most basic thing to not write trash.
I'm sorry but the idea the Brotherhood of Steel would have a problem getting to Washington D.C. with power armor and laser rifles is STUPID. Yes, Bloodbugs kill people armored like fucking tanks? Really? That's the argument everyone assumes is working?
Explain to me then how the NCR is crushing the Brotherhood of Steel, even though the latter has power armor and laser rifles and the majority of the NCR soldiers wear basic armor and basic weaponry.
How Super Mutants and Deathclaws are notorious for effortlessly killing people in power armor. Same with other numerous mutated beings. I swear you have selective memory more and more and just want to believe so bad that the BoS being in the East Coast makes sense.
CT Phipps, you are a writter, I would tought you'd understand the difference between Realism and Internal logic. I mean, it's like the most basic thing to not write trash.
In-universe, Power Armor is supposed to be a badass invincible Walking Tank thing.
In-game, it was a hefty damage bonus.
I'm just saying.
Explain to me then how the NCR is crushing the Brotherhood of Steel, even though the latter has power armor and laser rifles and the majority of the NCR soldiers wear basic armor and basic weaponry.
Probably Gauss Rifles, Rocket Launchers, Grenades, and mini-nukes. But the BOS is listed as inflicting like 10 casualties per one of them going down so it's a long and bloody war. At the end of the day, though, NCR has more logistical support. Regular bullets and weaponry, in-universe, doesn't pierce power armor.
How Super Mutants and Deathclaws are notorious for effortlessly killing people in power armor. Same with other numerous mutated beings. I swear you have selective memory more and more and just want to believe so bad that the BoS being in the East Coast makes sense.
Super Mutants and Deathclaws are, despite what Bethesda reusing them depicts, incredibly rare. There are no Super Mutants outside the Master's army, Washington DC, and the Institute even the expanded in canon.
Deathclaws are all mutated animals affected with FEV too, which means they're all migratory from Maraposa. How did they get to the glow? Bad writing. But they aren't all over the place.
Slight mistake here, maybe? Although Deathclaws were indeed originally mutated using FEV by the U.S. government, it was the Master that turned them into the vicious killing machines we see them be in Fallout 1. This isn't however information from the games and comes to us from way of the "Fallout 2 Official Strategies & Secrets" written by Fallout 2's lead designer Matt Norton, so take it as you may. So sure, they were created at the Glow and later refined at Mariposa but you find them around L.A. and who knows where else the Master dumped them.
Super Mutants and Deathclaws are, despite what Bethesda reusing them depicts, incredibly rare. There are no Super Mutants outside the Master's army, Washington DC, and the Institute even the expanded in canon.
Deathclaws are all mutated animals affected with FEV too, which means they're all migratory from Maraposa. How did they get to the glow? Bad writing. But they aren't all over the place.
I mentioned there are also other mutated beings, not just those two. There are also the Caesar's Legion, raiders and other many hostile enemies.
Here are the main points to why Brotherhood of Steel crossing the wasteland makes no sense:
- They are low on manpower and resources. They are not dancing around in power armor and soldiers. It's said several times that the Brotherhood of Steel is pretty much struggling everywhere.
- Walking around in power armor doesn't exactly make you mobile and sneaky, now doesn't it? You would be easily spotted.
- The eventuality of running out of ammo and food. Like said above, they are low on resources. A trek so long like going to the East Coast would require a ton of resources, something they don't have.
- Who's to say many of the raiders and tribles don't have laser weaponry? They could have. Not in much supply, but they could easily have them. Laser weaponry does hurt power armor.
Crossing the damn country with such cons is nigh impossible.
You do know they say they have the numbers? BoS eventually runs out of ammo because there's not enough ammo to kill so many soldiers. This is the case of victory by much superior numbers. The NCR also has weaponry that can damage power, power armor doesn't make you indestructible to everything.
I mentioned there are also other mutated beings, not just those two. There are also the Caesar's Legion, raiders and other many hostile enemies.
Here are the main points to why Brotherhood of Steel crossing the wasteland makes no sense:
- They are low on manpower and resources. They are not dancing around in power armor and soldiers. It's said several times that the Brotherhood of Steel is pretty much struggling everywhere.
- Walking around in power armor doesn't exactly make you mobile and sneaky, now doesn't it? You would be easily spotted.
- The eventuality of running out of ammo and food. Like said above, they are low on resources. A trek so long like going to the East Coast would require a ton of resources, something they don't have.
Crossing the damn country with such cons is nigh impossible.
Okay @Norzan, you keep trying to reinforce the point that it is impossible but I've yet to see a post from you explaining exactly why it is so. You're also still assuming the BoS sent the expedition AFTER the war started, aren't you? Like someone above stated; maybe they went to D.C. to get resources knowing it to be the Capital.
But this whole "nigh impossible" argument holds little water. If you want me to accept your point you need evidence to support why the BoS can't make the trip and as it stands there is nothing that exists that makes such a journey "impossible."
Okay @Norzan, you keep trying to reinforce the point that it is impossible but I've yet to see a post from you explaining exactly why it is so. You're also still assuming the BoS sent the expedition AFTER the war started, aren't you? Like someone above stated; maybe they went to D.C. to get resources knowing it to be the Capital.
But this whole "nigh impossible" argument holds little water.
It seems you are ignoring Risewild's arguments on purpose. Not gonna argue with you from now on if you are gonna purposely ignore critical information that shits on your arguments.
The brotherhood doesn't have the numbers or resources to manage outposts through the USA, even in fallout 3 Elder Lyons say they are struggling in the East Coast. They were always depicted as few in numbers and with just small 1 to 2 men outposts in some settlements in the East. Even the Midwest BoS was struggling and had to "force" (give us what we want and we will protect/save you) settlements and tribes there to regularly supply fresh recruits and supplies.
It seems you are ignoring Risewild's arguments on purpose. Not gonna argue with you from now on if you are gonna purposely ignore critical information that shits on your arguments.
You mean his post full of assumptions? He talks like the city of Chicago is a whole state that you can't go around. Furthermore, the Legion didn't even exist when Fallout 3 came out outside of concept ideas for Van Buren which is where New Vegas got them from so if anything that's a fault in New Vegas and not Fallout 3.
I get he is on the bandwagon with you but nodding at everything he says just because he agrees with you is stupid. All he says is "hellhole" a bunch of times and "creatures that attack on sight." That's hardly an argument.
