eddoctorwho
First time out of the vault
TheRatKing said:
My impression was that caravans would stop there to blow their earnings on drugs, drinking, women, and gambling.
What are the issues with New Reno?
- Thread starter Chancellor Kremlin
- Start date
First time out of the vault
My impression was that caravans would stop there to blow their earnings on drugs, drinking, women, and gambling.
Chancellor Kremlin said:
First of all, let's separate two things: quality and Falloutiness.
New Reno, designed primarily by Chris Avellone (my personal god), is an exceptional location, with extreme attention to detail, quality writing and really well developed quests and atmosphere. It's an outstanding piece of work, a really awesome RPG city.
Now, Falloutiness.
A city populated by mobsters, visibly based on 1920s and 1930s mafia. A city that doesn't produce ANYTHING of it's own, except for drugs, that's ruled by four crime families vying for domination. It lacks Fallout's feel, it isn't really a post-nuclear society, more like Las Vegas without cops.
The harsh reality of the wasteland, reflected in Vault City, the Hub, Junktown, Boneyard, Klamath, the Den, hell, even NCR, is not present.
One could argue that the harsh reality is present in the way that the regular people has to give way for a few gangs controlling weapons and trade as it is in the other fallout-cities.Mikael Grizzly said:
There would be a number of suburban and rural areas like Modoc around the big cities. It's not worth making dozens of maps of farmland with nothing in them. What you see in the game is just the downtown/urban areas with many people and lots of things going on. Players don't want to spend five minutes running through maps with nothing to do to get from the middle of New Reno to the world map. I've certainly gotten tired of going through the Hub entrance map every time I leave. The New Reno maps only show the prosperous core that people come to for recreation (bars, casinos, boxing ring). There isn't empty wasteland right at the edge of the map.
Dragula said:
But the struggle is against man-made apocalypse, not gangs. It's a struggle to survive in a hostile, post-apocalyptic environment, and Reno doesn't portray that, with it's tons of willing hookers, Jet dealers, casinos and thugs.
Kanhef said:
But that's the point, in a post-nuclear wasteland that has only started to rebuild itself, people have no need for such a location, not yet at the least.
NCR is officially hostile to Reno. Broken Hills with it's muties keeps to itself. Redding is too busy flying. Modoc has it's own problems, Vault City is living a sheltered 1984 life, Den and Klamath are irrelevant.
Who would provide the necessary supplies and monies to keep Reno running? What tourists? Where does everything come from? And why the fuck should I go through the wastes to Reno only to be shived by a thug for a cap or two?
metatarsal
First time out of the vault
Just putting in my two cents.
The Hub was already a significant trading city in the 2120's, FO2 is 2241 so I disagree that it "has only started to rebuild". Still rebuilding, yes. NCR alone is proof for the development.
The need-
People always need sex and booze. Whether it's wartime or peacetime, rich or poor.
Take into account that there is almost no form of recreation, sports, tv, music, art, there's not much choice.
The appearance of organized prostitution, drug business is inevitable. So I think a city like 'Sodom and Gomorrah' has a place in FO.
The only problem was that Reno was trying to be everything and to much. 'Las Vegas' with 'Cosa Nostra' rather than 'Sodom and Gomorrah'.
The Hub was already a significant trading city in the 2120's, FO2 is 2241 so I disagree that it "has only started to rebuild". Still rebuilding, yes. NCR alone is proof for the development.
The need-
People always need sex and booze. Whether it's wartime or peacetime, rich or poor.
Take into account that there is almost no form of recreation, sports, tv, music, art, there's not much choice.
The appearance of organized prostitution, drug business is inevitable. So I think a city like 'Sodom and Gomorrah' has a place in FO.
The only problem was that Reno was trying to be everything and to much. 'Las Vegas' with 'Cosa Nostra' rather than 'Sodom and Gomorrah'.
metatarsal said:
That's only a start. The NCR is still developing and while a formidable power, it's nowhere near stable or developed. Just notice that the assassination of one (1) man, Roger Westin, makes the NCR corrupt, while the assassination of another, Carlson, makes it an extremely right-wing fascist dicatorship.
Not exactly what I call stable and developed.
People always need food, shelter and water. Then come weapons and tools. Sex and booze is really low on the list of priorities.
...what? Remember Junktown? Skum Pitt was the center of night life with good drinks, a singer, a waitress and that was 80 years before Fo2.
The NCR alone had two bars, and it served fresh booze and women... women can always be bought. Hardly a reason to trek the wastes to a gangster-ridden city.
But not in that timeframe, not in that location and definitely NOT in that form. A city like that would prosper WITHIN NCR and indeed, Gizmo would bring about that kind of prosperity to Junktown.
Last words - not Sodom and Gomorrah. Just, no. Don't make me quote the bible.
metatarsal
First time out of the vault
You can read 'still rebuilding' I didn't say it's a final finished product.Mikael Grizzly said:
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.
With 'developement', I meant that several settlements have significantly grown in size and strength compared to the past.
So you think Skum Pitt and 2 bars in NCR are comparable with New Reno?..
By the way I'm not saying New Reno is probable, I'm disagreeing that people don't want more entertainment. Just because mobs own the business.
The state of living was improving, and with more people who have their basic need for food, shelter, clothes fulfilled there will be a demand for more entertainmnent.
Agree
although there'll be differences when we go into details
I think New Reno serves another significant purpose not really mentioned in this thread:
It serves as a source, breeding ground and 'cultural center' of the violent wasteland. I mean, realisticly or not, the FO2 wasteland has alot of robbers, highwaymen, Yakuza, and other groups of 'criminals' roaming it. I think Reno convincingly serves as a way to justify the existence and operation of some of these groups. In fact, in my most recent FO1 game i felt the lack of such a 'source'.
Overall, my 2 cents on Reno is that it certainly doesn't fit perfectly within the FO2 context - in a 'versimiltude' sense. (correct spelling?)
IMO, there are certainly too many prozzies, pimps and the like. I think the Reno designer got a bit carried away (was it Chris? or did he just write the dialogue?) But in fact, Chris himself admitted Reno was overloaded and had 'too many families'
But nevertheless i have no doubt it enhances my FO2 gaming experience. I'll never forget the first time i walked into Reno *nostalgic glaze* The gunshots, the erie music, talking to Jules for the first time, having my car stolen later .... fucking awesome.)
It serves as a source, breeding ground and 'cultural center' of the violent wasteland. I mean, realisticly or not, the FO2 wasteland has alot of robbers, highwaymen, Yakuza, and other groups of 'criminals' roaming it. I think Reno convincingly serves as a way to justify the existence and operation of some of these groups. In fact, in my most recent FO1 game i felt the lack of such a 'source'.
Overall, my 2 cents on Reno is that it certainly doesn't fit perfectly within the FO2 context - in a 'versimiltude' sense. (correct spelling?)
IMO, there are certainly too many prozzies, pimps and the like. I think the Reno designer got a bit carried away (was it Chris? or did he just write the dialogue?) But in fact, Chris himself admitted Reno was overloaded and had 'too many families'
But nevertheless i have no doubt it enhances my FO2 gaming experience. I'll never forget the first time i walked into Reno *nostalgic glaze* The gunshots, the erie music, talking to Jules for the first time, having my car stolen later .... fucking awesome.
)
metatarsal said:
Yes, but the people are still vulnerable and not safe enough to have a pleasure city estabilish itself.
Yes. Why waste time on getting to New Reno and risk getting killed when you have entertainment on the spot?
But not enough to justify the emergence of a city like New Reno. Especially when the Republic has only began it's growth and expansion.
Agree, although there'll be differences when we go into details
Details... Junktown is a state within the NCR. Not a separate, standalone city.
metatarsal
First time out of the vault
Aha, why waste time going anywhere, why not stay home forever,
It's dangerous out there.
I get the feeling you're only interested in erasing the possibility of Reno.
I'm talking about demand, and you're saying there can't be a New Reno. It would be nice to read, and stop repeating yourself over and over again.
Fallout 2 takes place 165 years after the Great War. Same amount of time as American Revolution to WWII. The entire Industrial Revolution took less time. At least five generations have passed, depending on how you count. Even if 99.9% of civilization is destroyed, it will not take that long to "only start to rebuild itself". That description would better fit Fallout 1, which is just 85 years after the War.Mikael Grizzly said:
metatarsal said:
1. NCR is safer
2. NCR has business and work
3. NCR has entertainment
New Reno:
1. No safety
2. Criminal work
3. Shitloads of entertainment
It's not a hard choice for a wastelander.
I get the feeling you're only interested in erasing the possibility of Reno.
I'm talking about demand, and you're saying there can't be a New Reno. It would be nice to read, and stop repeating yourself over and over again.
Because we're discussing New Reno, not demand. Demand for entertainment will be present, but, as I said, not in the amount to justify the emergence of a city founded purely on entertainment.
Kanhef said:
I hope you didn't miss the point that the world was destroyed in a nuclear fire, which set humanity back several centuries. You're comparing it to real-world events, but COMPLETELY FORGET that they took place in a different time, where foundations for the Industrial Revolution were already made.
Now, the Great War erased pretty much 90% of progress humanity made, throwing us back into the stone age (well, almost). To make any technological advancement, you'd need a proper industry working. And to get industry working, you need all of it's organs working, and that's really hard to do in a nuked-out wasteland.
Take Fallout 1 for instance - in 85 years, only small scale weapons manufacturing (Gun Runners), ammunition making (Adytum) and primitive agriculture (Shady Sands) have emerged. In 80 years, those settlements have prospered and emerged.
But, look at Fo2. After 165 years, on the worldmap, four (four) settlements have electrocity - NCR, Vault City, Broken Hills and San Francisco, three of them basing on pre-War technology and only the NCR having installed it's own after the war.
The rest are still dwelling in pre-War ruined buildings or shacks made from junk, lighting their buildings with torches and fire, eking out a pathetic existence, on the level of Shady Sands from Fo1.
Josan12 said:
Errr, no. Bishop would not let this happen, since he's looking forward to joining the NCR as a state with benefits.
You forgot one 'i'. But you're right, and that's my point - it's a city that doesn't fit.
It's nevertheless a masterpiece of RPG design.
Nodder
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Rev. Layle said:
But that's like saying "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" isn't all that Star Wars-ish.
Why does realistic depressing post-apoc have to define Fallout? If there can be super-tech remnants from older eras present in the wasteland, why not oases of super-tech cities? Maybe New Reno should have been a city that somehow survived the blasts with its society and technology fully intact, but was incapable of projecting military power to rule anywhere else.
I don't understand why people want Fallout to be a "realistic" gritty setting like Mad Max, Waterworld, Postman. It can have a mostly nuked-out world AND also spots where society and infrastructure held on. Kind of like Escape from New York and its sequel.
Chancellor Kremlin
Mildly Dipped
I don't think its completely out of the realms of possibility that a city like New Reno could exist in a fallout universe.
I mean, there have been some good analogies about humanity rising from the ashes (slowly), the industrial revolution, humanity having gone back for centuries, but to be fair, 200 years later I don't think it impossible some cities could have found their own means of generating electricity.
New Reno could have convincingly settled the 'Rew Reno has too much electricity - or electricity at all' argument by putting a generator in the basement of every casino/salvatore bar and having the families charge people for their services.
Also, from the industrial revolution sprang many inventions, machines and technology that WASN't there before. Sure thing, a nuclear war destroys nearly all of it and sets us back, but that technology is still available here and there, and doesnt have to be reinvented, simply repaired (Which is easier than having to create something from scratch).
I think a 'fail' in fallout is the fact there are not more cars around. Surely 200 years later people would have found ways, or alternative sources of powering vehicles. Same goes for electricity. A house/town by the side of a river could generate electricity with a water weel, etc.
So really, I don't think New Reno is un fallout ish, except for maybe the porn business. I mean, sure, they actually did explain how they got the technology to do it, but who the hell is going to watch it? Its not like everybody will have a holo-projector at home. Maybe they sell it to the casinos? Who knows.
Gangs are very probable in a post-apocalyptic world. With no law and order, its a man eat man world. You're not just fighting to rebuild and survive, but against humanity aswell.
Thats the whole point of New Reno! There is no law and order, that is why that city exists. Its under nobody's control. It would be impossible for such a city to exist in NCR as going in you read the sign and it tells you exactly what not to do, which is prositution, violence and so on. The state (which NCR is comparable to) would not allow such a development.
And about the timeframe, answered at the top of the post.
I mean, there have been some good analogies about humanity rising from the ashes (slowly), the industrial revolution, humanity having gone back for centuries, but to be fair, 200 years later I don't think it impossible some cities could have found their own means of generating electricity.
New Reno could have convincingly settled the 'Rew Reno has too much electricity - or electricity at all' argument by putting a generator in the basement of every casino/salvatore bar and having the families charge people for their services.
Also, from the industrial revolution sprang many inventions, machines and technology that WASN't there before. Sure thing, a nuclear war destroys nearly all of it and sets us back, but that technology is still available here and there, and doesnt have to be reinvented, simply repaired (Which is easier than having to create something from scratch).
I think a 'fail' in fallout is the fact there are not more cars around. Surely 200 years later people would have found ways, or alternative sources of powering vehicles. Same goes for electricity. A house/town by the side of a river could generate electricity with a water weel, etc.
So really, I don't think New Reno is un fallout ish, except for maybe the porn business. I mean, sure, they actually did explain how they got the technology to do it, but who the hell is going to watch it? Its not like everybody will have a holo-projector at home. Maybe they sell it to the casinos? Who knows.
Mikael Grizzly said:
Gangs are very probable in a post-apocalyptic world. With no law and order, its a man eat man world. You're not just fighting to rebuild and survive, but against humanity aswell.
Mikael Grizzly said:
Thats the whole point of New Reno! There is no law and order, that is why that city exists. Its under nobody's control. It would be impossible for such a city to exist in NCR as going in you read the sign and it tells you exactly what not to do, which is prositution, violence and so on. The state (which NCR is comparable to) would not allow such a development.
And about the timeframe, answered at the top of the post.
Nodder
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Why does it have to rebuild from scratch? Couldn't it have been a fortress town that survived the fall with its technology intact? Like Jericho and the other towns from the titular show.
Chancellor Kremlin said:
No law would destroy the city. Each of the gangs would make a powerplay *long* before the player shows up. You would end up 1 gang in control of the city or every gang down to a few members & one of the other cities taking over.
Gangs need a state to supply cannon fodder. Where are the new gang members coming from? And why do they find being in the gangs a better way of life than joining up with NCR or Vault City?
As for the State not allowing such a development... how has the US been doing with the 'War on Drugs'? The state can try to suppress any development it wants, but there will always be a fringe element doing it.
TheRatKing
Vault Dweller
You forgot that New Reno is capable of providing work for many wastelanders. How much money can the chosen one make in New Reno, quite a lot. Now that doesn't really prove much of anything, but it is another reason to go there. The crime bosses, while seemingly very close-knit with their families, let in the chosen one rather easily and it could happen with others.Mikael Grizzly said:
Well Fallout, while not entirely realistic, was certainly depressing. I would think that Fallout 2,3,etc. would have to be based on the themes of the original.
Well that would have made it an entirely different city and not at all like the one we are discussing.
Nodder said:
Alot of things could have happenned... but they didn't it. If New Reno was meant to be a fortress town they should have shown or at least told us in the game. So trying to explain New Reno that way doesn't really work.
As for having a fortress town in Fallout:
1) It would have to be hidden before the war so nobody nuked it.
2) Running technology constantly for that would be hard.
Jericho works due to the nature of the fall in that there are things lying around to be grabbed & used. Boneyard/LA in Fallout 1 shows how well the average city survived the nukes. Which leaves the smaller towns to scavenge from & after awhile every town would be picked clean leaving the hard places like SAD in Fallout 2.
New Reno is a fun place and to be honest is one of my favorite locations in FO2. Myron, Jagged Jimmy J, the stand-up comedian, Mrs. Bishop, the boxing, Father Tully . . . FO2 would be worse off without these elements.
BUT.
New Reno does not fit into a realistic model of a post apocalyptic community. For one thing, the reason real life crime families can be in a perpetual stalemate with each other is that in real life police exist to keep the opposing sides from engaging in open battles. The attacks are usually limited to property damage or "hits" or maybe raids, but not armies of soldiers marching down streets. In the absence of the restraining force of law and order, the four families would have long ago fought each other down to an endgame in which only one would be left.
This surviving crime family would be the defacto new government (i.e. Law and Order). And yes, this crime family *would* work to maintain order -- not for any sense of justice but rather purely out of self-interest. After all, people wouldn't want to spend their hard-earned gold in New Reno is they constantly have to worry about being attacked by free-lance gangs of slavers or what-have-you. The Mordino Family (assuming they are the family that wins the stuggle) would hire police to keep things profitable. Big Jesus would enact laws of various sorts. A bureaucracy would eventually develop to deal with the growing power of the government.
It wouldn't be a "crime family," it would be an empire.
Also, seeing as the fastest means of travel available to the average joe is walking, New Reno would seem to be a rather inconvienient vacation destination. Who wants to walk for two weeks just to visit a brothel and lose money gambling when they can do that where they live? The wasteland is a dangerous place; your average joe would probably never venture out unless they are part of a caravan -- which in and of itself is a limited customer base. New Reno wouldn't be making too much money from tourists. Jet, certainly, but everyday people on vacation? No way.
BUT.
New Reno does not fit into a realistic model of a post apocalyptic community. For one thing, the reason real life crime families can be in a perpetual stalemate with each other is that in real life police exist to keep the opposing sides from engaging in open battles. The attacks are usually limited to property damage or "hits" or maybe raids, but not armies of soldiers marching down streets. In the absence of the restraining force of law and order, the four families would have long ago fought each other down to an endgame in which only one would be left.
This surviving crime family would be the defacto new government (i.e. Law and Order). And yes, this crime family *would* work to maintain order -- not for any sense of justice but rather purely out of self-interest. After all, people wouldn't want to spend their hard-earned gold in New Reno is they constantly have to worry about being attacked by free-lance gangs of slavers or what-have-you. The Mordino Family (assuming they are the family that wins the stuggle) would hire police to keep things profitable. Big Jesus would enact laws of various sorts. A bureaucracy would eventually develop to deal with the growing power of the government.
It wouldn't be a "crime family," it would be an empire.
Also, seeing as the fastest means of travel available to the average joe is walking, New Reno would seem to be a rather inconvienient vacation destination. Who wants to walk for two weeks just to visit a brothel and lose money gambling when they can do that where they live? The wasteland is a dangerous place; your average joe would probably never venture out unless they are part of a caravan -- which in and of itself is a limited customer base. New Reno wouldn't be making too much money from tourists. Jet, certainly, but everyday people on vacation? No way.