What are the issues with New Reno?

[Chancellor Kremlin]

No law would destroy the city. Each of the gangs would make a powerplay *long* before the player shows up. You would end up 1 gang in control of the city or every gang down to a few members & one of the other cities taking over.

Not necessarily. These mafia families could have been the descendents from pre-war mafia, which could have had agreements and so on. It wasn't like four families arrived in New Reno at the same time, thought 'hey a city', and then began battling for it. The fact New Reno possesses little military value would lead me to believe it would not have been bombed.

Gangs need a state to supply cannon fodder. Where are the new gang members coming from? And why do they find being in the gangs a better way of life than joining up with NCR or Vault City?

For the same reason people do it these days. Easy living (until you die), easy money, makes you look cool and you get to shoot people.

As for the State not allowing such a development... how has the US been doing with the 'War on Drugs'? The state can try to suppress any development it wants, but there will always be a fringe element doing it.

Thats because drugs are illegal. In New Reno, no law, no one telling you drugs are bad. If the U.S legalised certain drugs a large number of drug gangs would cave in on themselves.

New Reno does not fit into a realistic model of a post apocalyptic community. For one thing, the reason real life crime families can be in a perpetual stalemate with each other is that in real life police exist to keep the opposing sides from engaging in open battles. The attacks are usually limited to property damage or "hits" or maybe raids, but not armies of soldiers marching down streets. In the absence of the restraining force of law and order, the four families would have long ago fought each other down to an endgame in which only one would be left.

Actually, any respectable mafia family knows war is bad for business. War is usually the last resort and mafia families usually are in agreement with each other to keep to their side and avoid meddling in each others business. The state has little to do with it.

 

[Tagaziel]

First, a quote:

New Reno is a fun place and to be honest is one of my favorite locations in FO2. Myron, Jagged Jimmy J, the stand-up comedian, Mrs. Bishop, the boxing, Father Tully . . . FO2 would be worse off without these elements.

BUT.

New Reno does not fit into a realistic model of a post apocalyptic community. For one thing, the reason real life crime families can be in a perpetual stalemate with each other is that in real life police exist to keep the opposing sides from engaging in open battles. The attacks are usually limited to property damage or "hits" or maybe raids, but not armies of soldiers marching down streets. In the absence of the restraining force of law and order, the four families would have long ago fought each other down to an endgame in which only one would be left.

This surviving crime family would be the defacto new government (i.e. Law and Order). And yes, this crime family *would* work to maintain order -- not for any sense of justice but rather purely out of self-interest. After all, people wouldn't want to spend their hard-earned gold in New Reno is they constantly have to worry about being attacked by free-lance gangs of slavers or what-have-you. The Mordino Family (assuming they are the family that wins the stuggle) would hire police to keep things profitable. Big Jesus would enact laws of various sorts. A bureaucracy would eventually develop to deal with the growing power of the government.

It wouldn't be a "crime family," it would be an empire.

Also, seeing as the fastest means of travel available to the average joe is walking, New Reno would seem to be a rather inconvienient vacation destination. Who wants to walk for two weeks just to visit a brothel and lose money gambling when they can do that where they live? The wasteland is a dangerous place; your average joe would probably never venture out unless they are part of a caravan -- which in and of itself is a limited customer base. New Reno wouldn't be making too much money from tourists. Jet, certainly, but everyday people on vacation? No way.

Now, on to the rest.

Why does realistic depressing post-apoc have to define Fallout? If there can be super-tech remnants from older eras present in the wasteland, why not oases of super-tech cities? Maybe New Reno should have been a city that somehow survived the blasts with its society and technology fully intact, but was incapable of projecting military power to rule anywhere else.

Fallout is DEFINED by nuclear destruction. Super-tech cities DO NOT exist because they were nuked. If Los Angeles, with it's demonstration Vault, was nuked thoroughly (examine the coastline), Reno would suffer the same fate if it was a super-tech city. Examine Fallout.

* The Hub - a settlement built around a dirty oasis.
* Adytum - a feudal society in gang-torn LA
* Necropolis - a nuked-out city of ghouls
* Shady Sands - a struggling survivalist community
* Junktown - relatively poor, but safe city

The only high-tech settlement is the Brotherhood outpost, who are the sole bearers of advanced technology, bar the Unity. And with good reason, because they descend from the military, not regular city dwellers most of whom died when the bombs hit.

I don't understand why people want Fallout to be a "realistic" gritty setting like Mad Max, Waterworld, Postman. It can have a mostly nuked-out world AND also spots where society and infrastructure held on. Kind of like Escape from New York and its sequel.

Because Fallout is realistic. It's inspired by 1950s pulp, but with a realistic twist to it. That's why you don't have rayguns but semi-plausible weapon designs, to begin with.

Not necessarily. These mafia families could have been the descendents from pre-war mafia, which could have had agreements and so on. It wasn't like four families arrived in New Reno at the same time, thought 'hey a city', and then began battling for it. The fact New Reno possesses little military value would lead me to believe it would not have been bombed.

SAD. Just a few hours away from New Reno. Hardly NOT a prime target for bombing.

And your argument doesn't make any kind of sense. If they were descended from pre-war mafia families, the power struggle would be over LONG ago with one faction remaining by 2241. It's the nature of the business. The biggest problem with New Reno is that it doesn't supply anything unique. It doesn't have anything to trade, except for Jet, which came around in 2220s. What sustained it since 2077?

For the same reason people do it these days. Easy living (until you die), easy money, makes you look cool and you get to shoot people.

And just how many people would do that? Not many, because badasses are few and far in between.

Thats because drugs are illegal. In New Reno, no law, no one telling you drugs are bad. If the U.S legalised certain drugs a large number of drug gangs would cave in on themselves.

Or find other venues, like the rest of illegal drugs.

Actually, any respectable mafia family knows war is bad for business. War is usually the last resort and mafia families usually are in agreement with each other to keep to their side and avoid meddling in each others business. The state has little to do with it.

Uhum. That's how it works in real life. In a post-apocalyptic scenario, they'd eventually muster up enough strength to take out the other families and take over the ENTIRE Reno. Why? Because there'd be no one to prevent them from doing so and no repercussions.

You forgot that New Reno is capable of providing work for many wastelanders. How much money can the chosen one make in New Reno, quite a lot. Now that doesn't really prove much of anything, but it is another reason to go there. The crime bosses, while seemingly very close-knit with their families, let in the chosen one rather easily and it could happen with others.

Err, the chosen one is a very special person. A typical wastelander is not. Your average joe has NOTHING to offer to the crime families that they don't already have, and would sooner end up shived in the back rather than hired.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

SAD. Just a few hours away from New Reno. Hardly NOT a prime target for bombing.

OK, good point, I had forgotten about that.

And your argument doesn't make any kind of sense. If they were descended from pre-war mafia families, the power struggle would be over LONG ago with one faction remaining by 2241. It's the nature of the business. The biggest problem with New Reno is that it doesn't supply anything unique. It doesn't have anything to trade, except for Jet, which came around in 2220s. What sustained it since 2077?

If you are not getting my argument then perhaps I am not explaining it right. I disagree the power struggle would be over 'a LONG time ago'. Just look at the sicilian mafia, they have existed since the 1920's, probably before that, and so far are still around. Also, alcohol could have been a trading commodity.

Have you ever wondered where the hell all the beer, spiritis, rot gut and so on comes from? In such large quantities, i'd imagine there would be a factory or distillary on a large scale, such as in Reno, and not individual stills. Also, what about the other drugs before Jet? Buffout, Mentats, Psycho, not to mention 'old school' (to quote the Chosen One) drugs like weed, barbiturates, cocaine and so on.

And just how many people would do that? Not many, because badasses are few and far in between.

Well, enough for it to be profitable. This argument is a moot point because in the same way today badasses are few and far in between, so in Fallout the majority of people are only trying to survive, while a minority will prey on others, like today.

Uhum. That's how it works in real life. In a post-apocalyptic scenario, they'd eventually muster up enough strength to take out the other families and take over the ENTIRE Reno. Why? Because there'd be no one to prevent them from doing so and no repercussions.

I don't think we can presume what would actually happen in such a scenario, which is why I don't think we should eliminate all the possibilities. Sure, what you say *could* happen, but that doesn't preclude what I say from *possibly* having happened either.

If all four families are similarly armed, suffer generally the same rate of attrition loss, hold similar sized territories and so on, a stalemate and perhaps 'peaceful coexistence' with intermittent fighting is not outside of the realms of possibility. Sure, the Salvatores have laser weapons. But a shot to the face will kill you just as quickly as a laser. (well, technically not because a laser would reach you first, but you get the point)

 

[Tagaziel]

If you are not getting my argument then perhaps I am not explaining it right. I disagree the power struggle would be over 'a LONG time ago'. Just look at the sicilian mafia, they have existed since the 1920's, probably before that, and so far are still around. Also, alcohol could have been a trading commodity.

REAL-LIFE. The Sicilian mafia isn't operating in a nuked out wasteland, it's operating in Italy, where the government is still operating. They are still limited by the presence of a government.

As for alcohol, do you honestly believe that? First 20 years after 2077:

Reno: "We have alcohol for sale!"
Survivours: "Do you have food or untainted water?"
Reno: "Ummm... no, but BOOZE!"
Surv.: "GTFO."

Have you ever wondered where the hell all the beer, spiritis, rot gut and so on comes from?

Local distilleries or pre-war stocks. Rebecca Dyer has her own still in the Den for instance, and the bar sprite shows a rather extensive alcohol brewing unit.

For instance, Gamma Gulp Beer and Roentgen Rum is brewed exclusively in Gecko. Beer is not that hard to make on your own, while booze is even easier.

In such large quantities, i'd imagine there would be a factory or distillary on a large scale, such as in Reno, and not individual stills.

They aren't "in large quantities", alcohol isn't littering the wastes.

Also, what about the other drugs before Jet? Buffout, Mentats, Psycho, not to mention 'old school' (to quote the Chosen One) drugs like weed, barbiturates, cocaine and so on.

That was Myron. And buffout, psycho and mentats are PRE-WAR drugs that are curently only made by those with access to pre-war technology - Vault City, the Shi or the Brotherhood of Steel.

Your argument is invalidated by the very man you quote. Myron states that before he came into town, Mordinos were growing peyote cacti, he didn't so much as mention any of the pre-war drugs, ergo Mordinos nor any other Reno family had access to them.

Well, enough for it to be profitable. This argument is a moot point because in the same way today badasses are few and far in between, so in Fallout the majority of people are only trying to survive, while a minority will prey on others, like today.

Which is why it'll never be as profitable as, say, estabilishing a city that gives an opportunity to live in. Just because for raiding to be profitable, you need people to raid.

Not to mention that New Reno would eventually burn in the 164 years since the War, if it was a raider central.

I don't think we can presume what would actually happen in such a scenario, which is why I don't think we should eliminate all the possibilities. Sure, what you say *could* happen, but that doesn't preclude what I say from *possibly* having happened either.

Errr, no. You're wrong, because Fallout showed what would happen, remember the Regulator/Blades debacle? Eventually, one moved out against the other, just like it happened in Junktown, which defaults to "Gizmo wins" if you aren't involved.

A power struggle doesn't mysteriously pause, it is eventually resolved.

If all four families are similarly armed, suffer generally the same rate of attrition loss, hold similar sized territories and so on, a stalemate and perhaps 'peaceful coexistence' with intermittent fighting is not outside of the realms of possibility. Sure, the Salvatores have laser weapons. But a shot to the face will kill you just as quickly as a laser. (well, technically not because a laser would reach you first, but you get the point)

Errr, no. The families aren't armed similarly. Bishops are backed covertly by NCR, Salvatores have Enclave laser weapons, Wrights are the hillbillies of Reno while Mordinos just plain suck.

Salvatores gunned down a number of Mordinos without any repercussions, and it does not make sense in the context of the Fallout world why they didn't push and destroy the Mordinos.

Reno is a well designed city, but not fitting in the context of the Fallout world.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

OK I can see this argument will get us nowhere. Im not going to change your view or vice versa.

As for alcohol, do you honestly believe that? First 20 years after 2077:

Reno: "We have alcohol for sale!"
Survivours: "Do you have food or untainted water?"
Reno: "Ummm... no, but BOOZE!"
Surv.: "GTFO."

Obviously not the first 20 years, but eventually people will want alcohol.

Local distilleries or pre-war stocks. Rebecca Dyer has her own still in the Den for instance, and the bar sprite shows a rather extensive alcohol brewing unit.

For instance, Gamma Gulp Beer and Roentgen Rum is brewed exclusively in Gecko. Beer is not that hard to make on your own, while booze is even easier.

They aren't "in large quantities", alcohol isn't littering the wastes.

Its not?

Like I said, local distillaries are nowhere near enough to provide for the massive quantities of alcohol seen in the wasteland. I mean, c'mon, its almost as if the war never happened in regards to alcohol. You can find it anywhere and everywhere.

Also, what about the other drugs before Jet? Buffout, Mentats, Psycho, not to mention 'old school' (to quote the Chosen One) drugs like weed, barbiturates, cocaine and so on.

That was Myron. And buffout, psycho and mentats are PRE-WAR drugs that are curently only made by those with access to pre-war technology - Vault City, the Shi or the Brotherhood of Steel.

Your argument is invalidated by the very man you quote. Myron states that before he came into town, Mordinos were growing peyote cacti, he didn't so much as mention any of the pre-war drugs, ergo Mordinos nor any other Reno family had access to them.[/quote]

While I agree with what you are saying about them being pre-war drugs and that only certain factions have access to it, I am going by the fact you can literally get buffout, psycho and mentats from dealers and shopkeepers at the den, redding, broken hills, gecko and some barmen/drug dealers in Rew Reno, which means they must be quite prevalent and easily acquirable for such a large number of people to have them available.

Which is why it'll never be as profitable as, say, estabilishing a city that gives an opportunity to live in. Just because for raiding to be profitable, you need people to raid.

Off course its more profitable! Using your own little pet argument, lets put it to the test:

Good Intentioned Guy - Guys, lets get together, and put all our hard work into rebuilding this town, putting the houses up, restoring electricity and water, getting building materials, etc etc etc.

Not so good intentioned guy - Hey, why don;t we just raid caravans instead? Or form a gang and make easy money from extortion. We can even rape, pillage and plunder!

Everybody - Yeah, that sounds good. YEah, okay.

Soon to be dead good intentioned guy - BUt what about the city? Think of the children. BANG!

- Take his wallet. Ok lets do this.

There we go. ITs easier to convince people to get money on the side than having them work hard for a living.

Errr, no. You're wrong, because Fallout showed what would happen, remember the Regulator/Blades debacle? Eventually, one moved out against the other, just like it happened in Junktown, which defaults to "Gizmo wins" if you aren't involved.

Yes, fallout showed that would happen. But somehow it also showed in Fallout 2 what wouldn't happen. Just because in scenario A the result is B doesnt mean its going to repeat itself. If you are going by what fallout shows then clearly im right because fallout 2 shows four families battling it out in new reno. Do you see the problem here?

Reno is a well designed city, but not fitting in the context of the Fallout world.

Its not that its not fitting, its that you are unwilling to accept it could have been possible for such a city to exist in the fallout setting, while I think it is possible.

While I agree with many of your points, and disagree with some, I maintain an open mind as to what may or may not exist, and I think both our arguments are founded.

 

[Tagaziel]

Obviously not the first 20 years, but eventually people will want alcohol.

And they'll start brewing it themselves. It's not rocket science.

Its not?

Yes, because it's small scale alcohol production, not for export, but to meet the needs of the community.

Like I said, local distillaries are nowhere near enough to provide for the massive quantities of alcohol seen in the wasteland. I mean, c'mon, its almost as if the war never happened in regards to alcohol. You can find it anywhere and everywhere.

I don't know what you're playing, but I hardly find it everywhere. A bottle or two, yes, but not in massive quantities. Local stills meet the needs of the community.

Tell me, why would people waste time and money importing booze from New Reno if they have cheaper booze in their own town? And it doesn't make sense either, because of all the families only the Wrights have a large scale distillery. If alcohol was truly the primary export good of New Reno, why are they the WEAKEST of the Reno families?

While I agree with what you are saying about them being pre-war drugs and that only certain factions have access to it, I am going by the fact you can literally get buffout, psycho and mentats from dealers and shopkeepers at the den, redding, broken hills, gecko and some barmen/drug dealers in Rew Reno, which means they must be quite prevalent and easily acquirable for such a large number of people to have them available.

Nope. It means that they are quality goods bought from San Francisco/Brotherhood traders and then sold further up north. Or they come from military stashes scavengers find from time to time and flood the market with.

And do notice the quantities. At most one or two doses per merchant. Hardly prevalent or easily acquirable.

Off course its more profitable! Using your own little pet argument, lets put it to the test:

Good Intentioned Guy - Guys, lets get together, and put all our hard work into rebuilding this town, putting the houses up, restoring electricity and water, getting building materials, etc etc etc.

Not so good intentioned guy - Hey, why don;t we just raid caravans instead? Or form a gang and make easy money from extortion. We can even rape, pillage and plunder!

Everybody - Yeah, that sounds good. YEah, okay.

Soon to be dead good intentioned guy - BUt what about the city? Think of the children. BANG!

- Take his wallet. Ok lets do this.

There we go. ITs easier to convince people to get money on the side than having them work hard for a living.

Then how did cities emerge? The flaw in your reasoning is that you assume everyone is skilled enough with a gun to become a raider, and that's simply not true.

Take the farmer in the Hub. He has a .223 and was ran off his farm by raiders. Does he take up the life of a criminal? No, he does not, he hires a mercenary to get his land back.

Did the Shady Sands people become raiders because it's easier? No, they did not, they built a town and wanted to be left alone.

The life of a raider is usually short and tragic. Most people long for security and a decent life, not guns and shooting. Stop treating Fallout like a world populated with badasses, and start approaching it like a real, living world with humans.

Yes, fallout showed that would happen. But somehow it also showed in Fallout 2 what wouldn't happen. Just because in scenario A the result is B doesnt mean its going to repeat itself. If you are going by what fallout shows then clearly im right because fallout 2 shows four families battling it out in new reno. Do you see the problem here?

Except Reno's not fitting. That's the basic difference.

In Fallout, the Blades/Regulators scenario fit and was plausible.
In Fallout 2, the scenario of four families not moving so much as an inch against each other for the past hundred years is... implausible in Fallout's setting.

Its not that its not fitting, its that you are unwilling to accept it could have been possible for such a city to exist in the fallout setting, while I think it is possible.

While I agree with many of your points, and disagree with some, I maintain an open mind as to what may or may not exist, and I think both our arguments are founded.

My argument is, let me rephrase it:

"In it's current shape and form, New Reno is absolutely implausible in the context of the Fallout world".

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Tell me, why would people waste time and money importing booze from New Reno if they have cheaper booze in their own town? And it doesn't make sense either, because of all the families only the Wrights have a large scale distillery. If alcohol was truly the primary export good of New Reno, why are they the WEAKEST of the Reno families?

Remember the context of that argument, we were talking about exports predating jet. Perhaps back then all four families were 'equally weak', but with jet coming and the Wrights refusing to deal it, they become the weaker family by lack of profits I suppose. Jet is in higher demand.

Then how did cities emerge? The flaw in your reasoning is that you assume everyone is skilled enough with a gun to become a raider, and that's simply not true.

Take the farmer in the Hub. He has a .223 and was ran off his farm by raiders. Does he take up the life of a criminal? No, he does not, he hires a mercenary to get his land back.

Did the Shady Sands people become raiders because it's easier? No, they did not, they built a town and wanted to be left alone.

The life of a raider is usually short and tragic. Most people long for security and a decent life, not guns and shooting. Stop treating Fallout like a world populated with badasses, and start approaching it like a real, living world with humans.[/quote]

Obviously not everybody will pursue the life of a raider, but people still do it anyway. Same as today people still become thugs, rapists and drug dealers. True, the life is short and tragic, but people did it now and would do it in a post-apocalyptic world.

My argument is, let me rephrase it:

"In it's current shape and form, New Reno is absolutely implausible in the context of the Fallout world".

And mine is: ''In it't current shape and form, New Reno is, admitedly, a bit far-fetched from the 'usual' context of the fallout world. However, it IS possible. Which is why I don't have as much as a problem with it than you have''.

I think we should pat ourselves on the back for a decent and level headed discussion and leave it at that.

 

[Tagaziel]

Remember the context of that argument, we were talking about exports predating jet. Perhaps back then all four families were 'equally weak', but with jet coming and the Wrights refusing to deal it, they become the weaker family by lack of profits I suppose. Jet is in higher demand.

The Salvatores were by far the weakest, until they estabilished a profitable trade with the Enclave. The Wrights were always a margin, and the Mordinos only rose to prominence with the advent of Jet.

John Bishop was the most prominent boss in New Reno, though it's never explained just HOW he came to be.

Obviously not everybody will pursue the life of a raider, but people still do it anyway. Same as today people still become thugs, rapists and drug dealers. True, the life is short and tragic, but people did it now and would do it in a post-apocalyptic world.

But not on the same scale, as a post-nuclear world has far greater job opportunities than real-life. Hell, the demand for specialists or just people who know their stuff would be immense. Why risk your life for loot if you can be a decent doctor and have a safe, profitable business in a city.

And mine is: ''In it't current shape and form, New Reno is, admitedly, a bit far-fetched from the 'usual' context of the fallout world. However, it IS possible. Which is why I don't have as much as a problem with it than you have''.

I think we should pat ourselves on the back for a decent and level headed discussion and leave it at that.

But you did state that it was a bit far-fetched, so I still (morally) win.

Anyways, you're right. So, now, how would we go about fixing it?

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

John Bishop was the most prominent boss in New Reno, though it's never explained just HOW he came to be.

Suppose he was the most cunning of them all, thats the impression I always had when going into Reno. Its a shame that as a 'good guy' character you are basically obliged to join the Wrights. I always prefered the Bishops.

But you did state that it was a bit far-fetched, so I still (morally) win.

lol, you just keep telling yourself that

Anyways, you're right. So, now, how would we go about fixing it?

Well, I have a bottle of tequila here. If you can make a trip to China we can discuss level design for a future city of the next Fallout game, and how to make the city fit perfectly into the fallout context whilst still being as awesome and fun as new reno.

 

[Nodder]

Fallout is DEFINED by nuclear destruction. Super-tech cities DO NOT exist because they were nuked. If Los Angeles, with it's demonstration Vault, was nuked thoroughly (examine the coastline), Reno would suffer the same fate if it was a super-tech city.

Well, the U.S. is a large place that has more than two coasts. What if you took a relatively small city such as Flagstaff or Carson City and had them be able to survive the nukes and the fall? They would end up looking pretty high-tech by the time of FO, regardless of what they were like before the war. Surely there were surviving pockets of civilization other than the government and Vault-Tec refugees. I'm not talking about New Reno now, rather the concept of a surviving holdout in general.

Because Fallout is realistic. It's inspired by 1950s pulp, but with a realistic twist to it. That's why you don't have rayguns but semi-plausible weapon designs, to begin with.

I dunno, the FEV and ghouls and the Master and such kind of nullify that. If FO is truly realistic, the surviving forces in non-targeted Latin American countries and Australia would have colonized the American West Coast and Southwest generations ago.

 

[Snowguy]

the surviving forces in non-targeted Latin American countries and Australia would have colonized the American West Coast and Southwest generations ago.

I agree with the likelihood of those groups surviving, but why the hell would they want to colonize irradiated wastelands? The people shown in Fallout are merely doing what they can with what they were given...

 

[Nodder]

Well I think at least by the time of FO2 they would have at least sent expeditionary forces or at the very least there could have been S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-styled bands of independent treasure hunters who are after the ruins of the tech, loot, and slaves from the formerly most richest nation on the planet.

 

[Tagaziel]

Well, the U.S. is a large place that has more than two coasts. What if you took a relatively small city such as Flagstaff or Carson City and had them be able to survive the nukes and the fall? They would end up looking pretty high-tech by the time of FO, regardless of what they were like before the war. Surely there were surviving pockets of civilization other than the government and Vault-Tec refugees. I'm not talking about New Reno now, rather the concept of a surviving holdout in general.

Lack of power, conservation, looting, presence of fallout, anarchy, harsher environment after a nuclear war etc. will make it look quite similiar to other Fallout locales.

Look at Klamath - it wasn't nuked, but still looks like shit. Same goes for almost every other city except for Broken Hills, which was rebuilt by the Unity, and that's the only reason it looks good.

I dunno, the FEV and ghouls and the Master and such kind of nullify that. If FO is truly realistic, the surviving forces in non-targeted Latin American countries and Australia would have colonized the American West Coast and Southwest generations ago.

I said realistic "twist" not full-out realism. If it was 100% realistic, the game would consist of sigh-seeing a dead world, because the nuclear weapons would wipe out humanity.

The problem with the things you mention is non-existent - they are explained in the game and fit, in a versimiliar way. They are not out of place, whereas untouched cities would be.

And who says there were any non-targeted countries? The balance of power could drastically change by 2077.

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

And who says there were any non-targeted countries? The balance of power could drastically change by 2077.

If BRIC countries, or BRIMC (inclusion of mexico) continue the way they are I would not doubt that to be the case. By then it is possible both Mexico and Brazil would have acquired nuclear weapons.

 

[Nodder]

Well, why would they target New Zealand? Or Fiji? Or some other relatively developed island in the Pacific? (Incidentally, it'd be pretty cool if a future FO spin-off was set in a locale that wasn't nuked, such as Hawaii, but still fucked over by the war.)

A 100% realistic Fallout wouldn't be about dead world. Ever heard of Twilight 2000?

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Well, why would they target New Zealand? Or Fiji? Or some other relatively developed island in the Pacific? (Incidentally, it'd be pretty cool if a future FO spin-off was set in a locale that wasn't nuked, such as Hawaii, but still fucked over by the war.)

A 100% realistic Fallout wouldn't be about dead world. Ever heard of Twilight 2000?

But fallout isnt a dead world.

And why would nations like Fiji and Hawaii (well, state), that were'nt nuked want to go to nuked areas when they themselves have nice beaches, climate, probably still law and order, and a decent living?

 

[Naissus]

Without trade and production of technologies and high tech equipment. I figured smaller nations would degenerate to more primitive times and also the nuclear winter would have helped in preventing them from becoming any more advanced than anything in the nuked out areas.

 

[Patton89]

I really don't think that the entire mankind would die in a nuclear war. even if ONE town of 10000 people would survive, earth could be repopulated.

And i really dont think the small nations would have resources or the will to colonize wasteland. How would they get fuel or working ships to go that far away from homeland. Plus the possible expedition would be very dependant on supplies and reinforcements coming from back home. And many small countries need outside resources already, so in future, situation will become even worse.

 

[Nodder]

Like I said, it wouldn't necessarily be a large-scale operation, it could be scattered bands of hoodied treasure hunters with AKs chasing after phat loot. America's too big a place to get ever bit of nice tech nuked. As for transportation- well, the world's too big a place for the Enclave to be the only faction with VTOL craft. Maybe there were people with helicopters and seaplanes.

 

[Patton89]

Like I said, it wouldn't necessarily be a large-scale operation, it could be scattered bands of hoodied treasure hunters with AKs chasing after phat loot. America's too big a place to get ever bit of nice tech nuked. As for transportation- well, the world's too big a place for the Enclave to be the only faction with VTOL craft. Maybe there were people with helicopters and seaplanes.

Again, how would they get the fuel ? Americans didn't share fusion tech. Oil wont be wasted on suicidal expeditions. And single person wont have resources to get there, not even bands of people.

And actually, why would they think that theres anything worth scavenging ? I mean their doing fine, and are probably more organized /advanced than everyone else. Assuming that they survived the war untouched. whitch they most likely didn't. And airrplanes would need to be long range ones, and they would need
airfields for landing. Helicopters just don't have the range. Same with most seaplanes.
I could buy the mexicans doing over border scavenging or the canadians but thats it. New Zealand is just too far away. And hawaiji might be plausible, assuming that they din't get nuked.
how would they know if something has been nuked or just destroyed in the years after the war ? It really doesn't work well in a complete apocalyptic enviroment.
What would have stopped the locals from already taking everything that was usefull ?

Bit far fetched in my opinion.