What do anarchists want?

Stop with the stupid philosphical anarchism shit its retarded. An anarchistic society would be several shit tons worse than ours because some charismatic nutjob Adolf Hitler would take complete control and we would have a dictatorship.

I don't support Anarchy, but that's not really true. Remember Belgium? They were an Anarchist country for nearly 2 years after their 2 governing bodies couldn't come to an agreement. They didn't have a government all that time and yet they got by. So it's not entirely accurate to say an anarchistic society will lead to a new Hitler, it didn't in Belgium.
 
My point is there are no rules so strongmen can exploit the weak and it could become a caste system. I guess Belgium is surrounded by stable governments, so that's not really possible. I meant that on a global scale, like if human civilisation collapsed
 
Ah. I see what you mean. Anarchy definitely can't work in large countries. Hell, it can barely work in very small countries. Look at pretty much every country that's overthrown a dictator and were stuck in Anarchy until someone like the US came along and helped them stabilize, it never ended up well. Sometimes it ends up so bad due to anarchy, people say the dictator was actually better for the country, like in Libya.
 
I'm gonna chime in again here, and point out that human "natural state" is observed where we "come from", namely tribal societies in jungles and forests.

These are groups of 20-100 individuals (tribal federations can count thousands of people though, but are not together as ONE unit), and these systems ARE our ideal governing form.
In a small group like that, the leaders *truly love* their subjects. It's the Christian love - that enigmatic mythical love we now seek everywhere else - to be *cared for* by our rulers.
Even here we cannot escape war, crime and injustice, but it is still the most ideal form of human society (especially in tropical forest environments, where food is abundant)

We are far away from there, for natural or unnatural reasons, depending on what you believe in.
But, if you wondered what type of government DOES work for humans, then that is the answer: small tribal units, that - unfortunately - tend to naturally progress into huge, unmanageable populations with more "artificial" leadership.
 
The whole "MUH ROADS" meme is just old and tired, there are countless examples of good privately built and operated roads (shit, I don't know if any good roads in all of Christendom are actually built by government companies), as well as a logical explanation of how it could work with no state intervention.
Individuals and small groups don't build 6 lanes highway, but then 5decades ago, most peoples didn't had car, and didn't commute for 2 hours to go to their shitty job. People didn't go really far, unless they were merchant, pilgrim, entertainer or some kind of nomads (but even nomads had their own delimited piece of land, they tend to stay in, if they don't want to piss the neighboring tribes). Street in town spontaneously happen, when people start to build houses left and right. And villagers make road, because they wouldn't be able to live, they need them to get to the farm, get their cart where they need it to go, and in the forest to get wood, firewood, plant and other stuff, they are not going to make modern concrete road just for outsider can use to drive their car to the mall. But then you have the Chinese Great Canal which was kind of the 6 lane of the pre-industrial era, and that was an imperial mandate.

That remind me a quote from "My life", Trotsky autobiography in chapter 9 "My first deportation", pardon my poor translation skill :

I [Trotsky] have met face to face for the first time an anarchist at the depot of Moscow. It was a institutor named Louzine, a silent, rough and taciturn man. When in prison, he was fond of common criminals, and listened to them with great interest stories of murder and burglary. He didn't enjoyed much taking part in theoretical discussions. Once only, as I pressed him, asking him how, in a group of autonomous communities, would railroads be managed, he retort to me :

"To hell! Why, in anarchy, would I ride on railroads?"

That may sound silly, but you don't need all this shit that have been built for the sole purpose of extreme exploitation of natural resources and wageslavery. You don't need road, you don't need internet, you don't need electricity network, you don't need industry, you don't need to transport shit 3 times around to world, you don't need national education, and all sort of other craps, you don't need to go out of your village, and think about other thing beside what you're going to grow and eat.

I sometimes have a romantic attitude to "anarcho-primitivism", but in reality such a scenario would only be like rewinding human history, only to fast forward it again.
Humans in a non-government state, will naturally create a government.
Humans in a non-urban state will naturally create urbanity.
Humans withough agriculture will naturally develop agriculture, and so on.

We are what we are because we are unable to be anything but what we are.
Government or other sort of political/economical/social organization will happen. I'm not sure about city and farming. And 90% of people who lived were not farmer, nor sedentary. And up until recently, half the world (gross exaggeration, or underestimation) was inhabited by people who didn't farmed nor build city (see Amazonia, Polynesia (when they didn't grow sweet potatoes), Sahara and various other desert like the Gobi, Siberia, Central Asia Steppe outside of ex-Soviet giant cotton farm. Why am I even writing all this shit?
 
Government or other sort of political/economical/social organization will happen. I'm not sure about city and farming. And 90% of people who lived were not farmer, nor sedentary. And up until recently, half the world (gross exaggeration, or underestimation) was inhabited by people who didn't farmed nor build city (see Amazonia, Polynesia (when they didn't grow sweet potatoes), Sahara and various other desert like the Gobi, Siberia, Central Asia Steppe outside of ex-Soviet giant cotton farm. Why am I even writing all this shit?

Well, first of all Amazonas, Polynesia, Sahara, Gobi, Siberia, Central Asian steppes - ALL have in common being inadequate places for large scale agriculture, at least in a primitive world, where we cannot rely on more industrial irrigation. Amazonas could be used for irrigation - we just have to cut it down first (and make it less Amazonas-like), we could irrigate the hell out of the desert, and make it less desert-like

That aside, it belongs to our narrative that we decide to adopt "primitivism", we will be doing so with collective memory of complex society fully intact. We would have to continously remind ourselves, when we are about to develop agriculture that is "too efficient" :D
"Hold on, everybody - if we keep going at this rate, many other tribes will emigrate this way, we will merge, and we will eventually develop a large urban setting!" "You're right, shit!" "Never forget! D:"

In the end, it remains highly unlikely. Like the places you listed, they aren't the way they are because they are against cities or don't like irrigation. As soon as a human society *can* improve in this particular way, it will - again evidenced by the wild-fire-like spread of agriculture and irrigation and other developments, once invented, such as metallurgy.
I even saw in an interview of a Congolese(?) jungle-man (I never know the correct term for forest-dwelling peoples), he had a dream to build a huge night-club in the jungle, the way he had seen when visiting the city. He'd only need to clear some jungle, and he's half way there!
 
True, true. What about North Amerindians, with the exception of Navajo and some other obscure tribes, but maybe North America is just unfit for non-mechanical agriculture?

I just want to say is that humans don't always do agriculture, even when they know about it. And that if they don't know how to farm, and have nobody to tell them how to do it, they might not be able to figure it out (How did the Mayincatec figure it out, no idea? I guess just like the people living near the Euphrates). Part of why farming spread so well all across Asia, Europe and North Africa, is that it's more or less a big landmass, where information can circulate, so that even people in Jungles in the middle of the Laos can try planting rice. Agriculture is a technology, not an innate knowledge.

That aside, it belongs to our narrative that we decide to adopt "primitivism", we will be doing so with collective memory of complex society fully intact. We would have to continously remind ourselves, when we are about to develop agriculture that is "too efficient"

Farming isn't harmful, as long as you don't burn entire forest to fertilize the soil, but even then it's no where near as harmful as modern industry. That could just be me believing in delusion, knowledge can be easily lost, in particular our modern technology. Modern farming isn't just about farming, it's part of a complete inter-connected system which need an awful lot of peoples and investment, it's industrial chemistry, mining, engineering, logistic, petrol, genetics, and all sort of other shit, that a simple group of farmers wouldn't be able to recreate that if it falls apart, I means just look at some Chinese farmers who still use donkey, if they can make a modern European farm all by themselves.

You like primitivism? Do you know about uncle Ted?
 
Agriculture is a technology, not an innate knowledge.

I know that, and the first hints of agriculture are actually quite interesting (closely tied to religion, spiritualism, alcohol)
But I am still staying with the notion that in our scenario, we remember what we know.
Agriculture has also developed independently of the Old World, as seen in the Inca empire terraces, but as you imply is overall less common (North America for example, but even there small scale growing existed, it does even in the jungle)

Farming isn't harmful, as long as you don't burn entire forest to fertilize the soil, but even then it's no where near as harmful as modern industry. That could just be me believing in delusion, knowledge can be easily lost, in particular our modern technology. Modern farming isn't just about farming, it's part of a complete inter-connected system which need an awful lot of peoples and investment, it's industrial chemistry, mining, engineering, logistic, petrol, genetics, and all sort of other shit, that a simple group of farmers wouldn't be able to recreate that if it falls apart, I means just look at some Chinese farmers who still use donkey, if they can make a modern European farm all by themselves.

Modern farming "only" took 5 thousand years to develop :V That's like a blink of an eye in 200 000 years of modern humans, and lightning-fast compared to the evolution of Homo
A contemporary Chinese farmer using a donkey has likely heard of modern farming, in a world that he partakes in. If he had the means, he would probably give that donkey a rest, and buy a tractor.
In a "primitivist" society we would deliberately choose away the tractor, and choose the donkey instead - regardless of means. This is what I find unlikely to ever occur - especially on a greater scale.

You like primitivism? Do you know about uncle Ted?

Haven't heard of, and I think we've both dived too deep in this particular issue :D I'm at the point where I'm not entiiirely sure what we're actually discussing anymore :D
I guess my main point is - Humans will, by nature, choose progress - or whatever they truly consider to be progress. They will not choose away efficiency, no matter how idealistic. We might try to regulate certain aspects of our society, such as pollution, but we will not completely abandon it untill we are presented with a more efficient alternative.
NOW... there is of course the issue of our perception of efficiency, that is in turn molded by our wise men and leaders, but that's too much to go into right now, it's late :D
Anarcho-primitivist societies are simply not considered efficient enough to sustain the dense mass of society that exists right now, and so, it is not chosen and probably won't be. Any society that naturally exists in such a state (such as tribal hunter-gatherers) will always gravitate towards efficiency whenever they are given the oportunity, while the exception is extremely rare
(not saying tribes will un-tribe immediately, but many "jungle folks" combine modern equipment with their style of life whenever they can, such as synthetic fabrics, factory-made clothes, fire-arms, etc)
 
Yeah you're also free not to give away half your income to the state.

Just kidding.
Individuals and small groups don't build 6 lanes highway, but then 5decades ago, most peoples didn't had car, and didn't commute for 2 hours to go to their shitty job. People didn't go really far, unless they were merchant, pilgrim, entertainer or some kind of nomads (but even nomads had their own delimited piece of land, they tend to stay in, if they don't want to piss the neighboring tribes). Street in town spontaneously happen, when people start to build houses left and right. And villagers make road, because they wouldn't be able to live, they need them to get to the farm, get their cart where they need it to go, and in the forest to get wood, firewood, plant and other stuff, they are not going to make modern concrete road just for outsider can use to drive their car to the mall. But then you have the Chinese Great Canal which was kind of the 6 lane of the pre-industrial era, and that was an imperial mandate.
If they want to sell shit in their mall, they have to make the road to it, don't they? They have a lot more incentive to actually do it than government.
That remind me a quote from "My life", Trotsky autobiography in chapter 9 "My first deportation", pardon my poor translation skill :



That may sound silly, but you don't need all this shit that have been built for the sole purpose of extreme exploitation of natural resources and wageslavery. You don't need road, you don't need internet, you don't need electricity network, you don't need industry, you don't need to transport shit 3 times around to world, you don't need national education, and all sort of other craps, you don't need to go out of your village, and think about other thing beside what you're going to grow and eat.
Russian anarchists had a hate-boner for railroads in general (particularly in Ukraine) because they expanded state power to places where there was previously none. I'm not sure how Trotsky's idea on militarizing labor and the like fits in with your pastoral vision of society.

That's right, you don't need a lot of shit, but some evil capitalists are giving you all this cool stuff that's making your life easier (and longer) so that they could make a buck. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Government or other sort of political/economical/social organization will happen. I'm not sure about city and farming. And 90% of people who lived were not farmer, nor sedentary. And up until recently, half the world (gross exaggeration, or underestimation) was inhabited by people who didn't farmed nor build city (see Amazonia, Polynesia (when they didn't grow sweet potatoes), Sahara and various other desert like the Gobi, Siberia, Central Asia Steppe outside of ex-Soviet giant cotton farm. Why am I even writing all this shit?
There is notghing wrong with political, social and economic organizations so long as they are not coercive. Unlike government.
 
Taxes are used to fund hospitals and welfare, you know to help the less well off.

I love it how many people hate the idea of hospitals being funded by stolen money they rightfully earned, until of course they're sick and they can't pay hospital fees.
 
Taxes are used to fund hospitals and welfare, you know to help the less well off.

I love it how many people hate the idea of hospitals being funded by stolen money they rightfully earned, until of course they're sick and they can't pay hospital fees.
So if I'm less well off than you, I can just waltz into your house and steal whatever I think would compensate for it?
 
Yeah I know, greed trumps (pun VERY much intended) risk.
I really don't get what you're trying to say here. It's got nothing to do with greed. We pay a lot more taxes than we should because the government has to pay the Fed which it owes an insane amount of money to. And they get that money by taxing us at insane levels.
 
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