What do anarchists want?

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Eh...
1. You're not as forced as you think, you can "declare pacifism", depending on country. Check.

Since you said that you never would have joined the military on your own, I assume Norway isn't one of those countries.

2. You can leave. Not at will, but that would make workplaces and school slavery too. Check.

Except that leaving your workplace isn't a crime, while leaving the army is. And breaking a contract you were coerced into and one you willingly signed is not the same.

3. You have to obey your superiors everywhere in the fucking world - including THE ARMY. You didn't think that last one through very well, did you? Can I laugh hysterically now?

No, you can just choose not to. Unless it gets you arrested and/or killed. Like in THE ARMY.

4. Draftees get paid.

So do prisoners.

This definition of slavery is so ... wonky, it's not even funny anymore. What do you consider "forced" here? Since when are you forced into military service - unlike war time?
Seriously, do you even know how those things work? If we follow your definition, almost ANY contract that you have, could be considered a form of slavery.

No, you can choose not to sign a contract and not suffer any legal repricussions.

Gee, I knew this board was full of state-loving faggots, but do all of you seriously not see forced military service as a serious infringement on one's freedom?

 

[Hassknecht]

Since you said that you never would have joined the military on your own, I assume Norway isn't one of those countries.

If you join voluntarily you usually do several years of service instead of just a year of basic traning and service.

Except that leaving your workplace isn't a crime, while leaving the army is. And breaking a contract you were coerced into and one you willingly signed is not the same.

Pretty sure you can leave the army just like you'd leave a workplace. In Germany at least in the first six months.

No, you can just choose not to. Unless it gets you arrested and/or killed. Like in THE ARMY.

You'll just get fired, then. Not to mention that it actually can get you arrested since you might be violating your work contract.

So do prisoners.

True.

No, you can choose not to sign a contract and not suffer any legal repricussions.

You can also choose not to do military service. Most countries have alternatives to mandatory military service in place. It used to be harder to get out of military service (at least in Germany; you had to write a convincing text about how your conscience doesn't allow you to do armed service, and you had to get in front of a committee. These days [if we still had the draft] you can just write the text, nobody gives a shit since they actually want more people for civil service than for armed service).

Gee, I knew this board was full of state-loving faggots, but do all of you seriously not see forced military service as a serious infringement on one's freedom?

Ah, the what, 19 year old high school graduate demonstrates his supreme knowledge and life experience again.
Man, I just hope you get a REALLY shitty job that you're forced to do because you don't get anything else because you're a massive douchebag who doesn't listen to superiors (because MUH FREEDOM).

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Ah, the what, 19 year old high school graduate demonstrates his supreme knowledge and life experience again.
Man, I just hope you get a REALLY shitty job that you're forced to do because you don't get anything else because you're a massive douchebag who doesn't listen to superiors (because MUH FREEDOM).

Wait, you seriously think that this is an argument?

 

[Hassknecht]

Wait, you seriously think that this is an argument?

No, I just wanted to take the piss out of you.

 

[RangerBoo]

I don't really like getting involved in these political threads but this one is one that is close to home so, ehh... I live in the Pacific Northwest which is pretty much the anarchist capital of the US and from what I've seen in my 25 years of life these anarchist only want and care for is destruction. Every fucking May Day they come out of the woodwork and try to start a riot and destroy other peoples property. People who did them no wrong. I remember watching the WTO riots in 1999 and thought that these people were nothing but a bunch of animals. They love destruction which is why Seattle and Washington have been getting tougher on these kind of protest which is good as everyone on the left, right and between are sick of these protestors destroying other peoples property and businesses. Seriously, what does that accomplish? I don't care what your beliefs are. So long as you protest peaceful and don't destroy other property and businesses then protest away and make your voice heard. More power to you. However from what I've seen they love wrecking other peoples shit, which cost the city and residents thousands, and then act like this:

 

[Throatpunch]

I personally don't see why we (UK) actually need anything beyond a defense force ala Japan.

You say you are from the UK but dont spell defence with a C.

Spoiler

Anyway, the reason its important we spend a lot on defence for overseas is because it is a very important part of how we work, we are an island nation, therefore we rely on trade and ships, hence we need a powerful navy to protect the trade. Also just the fact we are an island.
As I said earlier, we own overseas territories that other countries wanna own, so we need to protect those.
We also need to be able to protect our interests abroad.
On a side note, the new Queen Elizabeth Aircraft carrier looks badass:

Spoiler

 

[Hassknecht]

Those "oversea territories that other want to own" are the Falklands, aren't they.
Limeys and gauchos really deserve each other...

 

[Throatpunch]

Those "oversea territories that other want to own" are the Falklands, aren't they.
Limeys and gauchos really deserve each other...

No, not just the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda and loads of little Islands. Mainly Gibraltar and the Falklands at the moment.

Spoiler

Flag Arms Name Location Motto Area Population Capital


Akrotiri and Dhekelia Cyprus, Mediterranean Sea 255 km2(98 sq mi)[12] 14,000 (about half British military and staff); Episkopi Cantonment


Anguilla Caribbean, NorthAtlantic Ocean Strength and Endurance 91 km2(35.1 sq mi)[13] 13,500[14] The Valley


Bermuda North Atlantic Ocean Quo fata ferunt (Latin: "Whither the Fates carry [us]") 54 km2(20.8 sq mi)[15] 64,000 (2007 estimate)[16] Hamilton


British Antarctic Territory Antarctica Research and discovery 1,709,400 km2(660,000 sq mi)[13] 50 in winter; over 400 in summer[17] Rothera (main base)


British Indian Ocean Territory Indian Ocean In tutela nostra Limuria (Latin: "Limuriais in our charge") 46 km2(18 sq mi)[18] About 3,000 UK and US military and staff.[19] Diego Garcia (base)


British Virgin Islands Caribbean, North Atlantic Ocean Vigilate (Latin: "Be watchful") 153 km2(59 sq mi)[20] 27,000 (2005 estimate)[20] Road Town


Cayman Islands Caribbean, North Atlantic Ocean He hath founded it upon the seas 264 km2(101.9 sq mi)[21] 54,878 [21] George Town


Falkland Islands South Atlantic Ocean Desire the right 12,173 km2(4,700 sq mi)[15] 2,955 (2006 census)[22] Stanley


Gibraltar Iberian Peninsula,Continental Europe Nulli expugnabilis hosti (Latin: "No enemy shall expel us") 6.5 km2(2.5 sq mi)[23] 28,800 (2005)[24] Gibraltar


Montserrat Caribbean, North Atlantic Ocean A people of excellence, moulded by nature, nurtured by God 101 km2(39 sq mi)[25] 4,655 (2006 estimate)[25] Plymouth (abandoned due tovolcano—de facto capital is Brades)


Pitcairn Islands Pacific Ocean 43 km2 (17 sq mi)
(all islands)[26] 56 (2013) Adamstown


Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha South Atlantic Ocean Loyal and Unshakeable 420 km2(162 sq mi) 5,530 Total
4,255 (Saint Helena only; 2008 census)[27]
1,275 (Ascension and Tristan da Cunha; estimates)[28] Jamestown




Our faith is our strength


South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands South Atlantic Ocean Leo terram propriam protegat (Latin: "Let the lion protect his own land") 4,066 km2(1,570 sq mi)[29] 99 (none permanent)[30] King Edward Point


Turks and Caicos Islands Lucayan Archipelago, North Atlantic Ocean "Beautiful by nature, clean by choice" 430 km2(166 sq mi)[31] 32,000 (2006 census estimate) Cockburn Town

 

[Izak]

Who wants Gibraltar? The only time I've ever heard of a foreign power considering an invasion of Gibraltar was Spain during World War 2.
EDIT Nevermind, Spain still wants it but I somehow doubt Spain will invade a British territory regardless of how large the UK's military is.

 

[zegh8578]

So long as you protest peaceful and don't destroy other property and businesses then protest away and make your voice heard.

The problem is that peaceful protest is usually a purely symbolic act with little-to-no follow up.
Symbolic acts are okay though, for lesser issues, like... whaling or such, people will often repeat these demonstrations, and over time they might cause a bit of change.

For radical change, a protest needs to "shut the city down" (basically hold society hostage. Compare it to even more radical change, where you get your guns out, and start shooting at state military (civil war)), and that's where it gets tricky. You got half a million protesters, and you tell them "Okay everyone - we need to decapacitate the city, but try not to - " and poof, ten percent of half a million run straight over to the nearest shoe-shop, smash the windows and loot the place.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Except that leaving your workplace isn't a crime, while leaving the army is. And breaking a contract you were coerced into and one you willingly signed is not the same.

Depends on the work you're doing mate. Hass pretty much covered most of your inexperienced claims. But just to add this. How often has a fireman decided to quit his job, while rescuing someone from a burning house. How often has a surgeon decided to leave his workplace, while performing a complex surgery. Or a paramedic stoping with his job, in the middle of cardiopulmonary resuscitation?
There are jobs where you can't just quit like that, just beacuse you feel like it, and not suffer from some very heavy consequences. Well maybe in that corporate dream state of yours ...

Wait, you seriously think that this is an argument?

In some sense ... it actually is. I guess that's not what Hass meant, but there is a reason why you don't make 18 year olds the head of a state, usually. There are certain knowledge that comes trough experience, life, interaction. And you can't just get those from "books" or schools. It is NOT a question of intelligence, you know. And even if we ignore all this fascist-corporate-loving racism that you display here so often, it just seems like you lack a lot of real life experience, at least that is the feeling I get from reading your stuff. Some of us here, have seen some real shit, that shaked up our views and gave us a chance to reconsider our views, in some cases you are even forced to, as there is no other alternative - believe me, you only try it once, to change an alcoholic family member who doesn't recognize his own problems.

 

[zegh8578]

Stop being against freedom Crni!

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Depends on the work you're doing mate. Hass pretty much covered most of your inexperienced claims. But just to add this. How often has a fireman decided to quit his job, while rescuing someone from a burning house. How often has a surgeon decided to leave his workplace, while performing a complex surgery. Or a paramedic stoping with his job, in the middle of cardiopulmonary resuscitation?
There are jobs where you can't just quit like that, just beacuse you feel like it, and not suffer from some very heavy consequences. Well maybe in that corporate dream state of yours ...

The key difference being that the fireman, paramedic and surgeon were not recruited under a threat of violence. If they were, they have every moral right to walk away.

In some sense ... it actually is. I guess that's not what Hass meant, but there is a reason why you don't make 18 year olds the head of a state, usually. There are certain knowledge that comes trough experience, life, interaction. And you can't just get those from "books" or schools. It is NOT a question of intelligence, you know. And even if we ignore all this fascist-corporate-loving racism that you display here so often, it just seems like you lack a lot of real life experience, at least that is the feeling I get from reading your stuff. Some of us here, have seen some real shit, that shaked up our views and gave us a chance to reconsider our views, in some cases you are even forced to, as there is no other alternative - believe me, you only try it once, to change an alcoholic family member who doesn't recognize his own problems.

The correct answer was that that was not an argument, and neither is this.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You think there isn't a certain experience that comes with age? Oh boy ... was I ever as green and naive like you? Probably. Didn't believe this "if you reach my age son, you will yada-yada" stuff either. I guess it is really true what they say. Certain things really come only when you grow up, to say it that way.

The key difference being that the fireman, paramedic and surgeon were not recruited under a threat of violence. If they were, they have every moral right to walk away.

And where are those forcefully conscripted soldiers you're talkingabout, which have been pressed into service under a threat of violence? The US?, Sweden? Germany? France maybe? Get real. The only REAL cases where this might happen, is when you have a really big war. And in such situations, it usually happens that ALL people have to do some service for their nation, one way or another. And those are really not cases that happen every day, so you could say those are some extreme situations. Males eventuelly had to serve overseas in WW2, while the females have spend 10-12 hour shifts literaly each day to build the ships and bombers for the men on the frontline. I am pretty sure those wifes would have rather staid at home in a time of peace, than building weapons, given the choice. But for most normal people, they understand the need for it, if the situation asks for it. I am not a friend of wars, the military and such. But I am not so naive to believe, that a world without wars and soldiers will happen tomorrow, just like that. But even those cases, become more and more a voluntary service, no one in the US or Germany is forced anymore or pressed in to service. The people which served in Iraq and Afghanistan are not forced in to it. ALL of the people serving in our military, here in Germany at least, decided for it, they chose this lifestyle for them self without any kind of preasure. With all the advantages AND disadvantages that come with it.

 

[Throatpunch]

In my opinion, conscription/drafts is only justifiable in total wartime
Its produces lower quality soldiers compared to a proffesional volunteer army, many conscripts don't want to be fighting so do not have the mindset or physical prowess to be effective soldiers, so it creates an ineffective fighting force.

 

[zegh8578]

In my opinion, conscription/drafts is only justifiable in total wartime
Its produces lower quality soldiers compared to a proffesional volunteer army, many conscripts don't want to be fighting so do not have the mindset or physical prowess to be effective soldiers, so it creates an ineffective fighting force.

You're right about those who indeed are inefficient individuals, but they would be side by side with those who would have been professional soldiers

Hypothetical example
Volunteer army: 1000 professional soldiers
Draft army: 1000 professional soldiers + 2500 draftees = 3500

In my own experience, the military structure does an impressive job at whipping the average Joe into shape. They will never be on par with a real warrior-type, but they will have warrior-types among them, further lifting morale.

On a slightly different note, another thing that impressed me was the bonding imposed on the troops. I say imposed, because it is very deliberate, from top down, we - the draftees - were quick to bond, and I myself witnessed a few failed attempts at bully-types looking for victims. There simply was no room for it. I've never seen that outside of the military

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, I guess it really helps when you realize that you're all in the same boat, and that guy that was bullied, might be actually the one to save your life. It doesn't surprise me to hear from you, that this is rare among troops.
However, on the flip side, it is very interesting what veterans say about the replacements, many later kinda regret how they treated them. But, can you really blame them? If you lost so many men in the last fight, why even bother geting to know the new ones. Like with a 50, 60 or even 80% chance that they might not survive the next days?

In my opinion, conscription/drafts is only justifiable in total wartime
Its produces lower quality soldiers compared to a proffesional volunteer army, many conscripts don't want to be fighting so do not have the mindset or physical prowess to be effective soldiers, so it creates an ineffective fighting force.

You have no other choice nor option in a large scale conflict. As far as military affairs goes, masses win wars. It has been always like that. Of course this is a gross simplification, but I hope you get the picture - but this is, definetly the number one reason when you have forces of more or less equal quality. I mean, if we take WW2 as example, then we are talking about millions of men here. All of whom have to be equiped, trained and shiped somewhere to fight. Not even the Germans, who have been known for their focus on technology and quality have been to different in that matter, when you think about what units would usually carry the fight. Like the medium tanks or simply the mass of the military machine, the bulk of the German army was as much about conscripts as the other nations. As impressive as that "quality" equipment is, like a Tiger I, but do people really think that a tank that saw some 1300 would really matter in the long run?

 

[Throatpunch]

You have no other choice nor option in a large scale conflict.

Thats why I said only justifiable in total wartime. Also depends on your definition of large scale conflict.

As far as military affairs goes, masses win wars. It has been always like that

No, It has not always been like that, you dont know what your talking about.

Of course this is a gross simplification

Its a gross fallacy. I am gonna go into detail and use an example to prove why that statement is erroneous.

It depends on where the war takes place, who is fighting, how effective the military is and the tactics/strategy used.
Allow me to go into more detail. The proxy war in Vietnam was won by the North Vietnamese, and they had considerably less troops, it was 461,000 compared with 1,830,000 Anti communist forces opposing them. Thats a difference of 1339000.
The Americans had a huge army, money and technology at their disposal while the Vietcong were an underground army, using underground tactics.

The Viet Cong

• The Viet Cong fought a guerilla war ambushing US patrols, setting booby traps and landmine's, and planting bombs in towns. They mingled in with the peasants, wearing ordinary clothes. The Americans couldn't identify who the enemy was.
• They were supplied with rockets and weapons by China and Russia. They used the Ho Chi Minh Trail - a jungle route through Laos and Cambodia - to supply their armies. The Americans couldn't attack their supply routes without escalating the war.
• Their tactic was "hanging onto the belts" of the Americans - staying so close to the Americans so they could not use air or artillery backup without killing their own men.

The Americans

• They fought a hi-tech war, using B52 bombers, artillery, helicopters, napalm and defoliants (Agent Orange). This killed many innocent civilians, and failed to stop the Vietcong guerrillas.
• They forced the peasants to leave Vietcong-controlled areas and made them live in defended strategic hamlets in loyal areas. This created immense opposition, and allowed Vietcong infiltrators into loyal areas.
• American troops were sent on patrols, then supported by air and artillery when attacked. This demoralised the soldiers, who realised they were being used just as bait.

In January 1968, the NVA launched the Tet Offensive, capturing a number of towns in South Vietnam.
It took the Americans a month to recover the towns. Their confidence was badly shaken. They won the Tet Offensive, but realised that they would never defeat the Vietcong.

Result
North Vietnamese victory

• Withdrawal of American-led forces from Indochina
• Communist governments take power in South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia
• South Vietnam is annexed by North Vietnam

So your statement was

As far as military affairs goes, masses win wars.

The Americans had massed troops, the North Vietnamese didn't. The North Vietnamese won the war. During the conflict, the Americans reinstated a draft.

 

[Izak]

I think you've misinterpreted Crni's post, guerrilla warfare and a World War 1/2 style war are two considerably different things; in a huge land war masses, equipment and, strategy are the only things that matter.

 

[Throatpunch]

I think you've misinterpreted Crni's post

I dont think I have, Crni said "military affairs" which is a blanket term.
He stated that massed troops always won a war, which is a fallacy, and is obviously disproved by historical wars, like Vietnam.

in a huge land war masses, equipment and, strategy are the only things that matter.

Nope.
In the beginning of the war on the eastern front, the Germans had considerably more troops and better equipment than the soviets, but lost partly due to lack of preparation for cold weather conditions and had an incompetent high command. So no, they are not the only things that matter. Many different things factor in, not just masses and tactics.
Also "huge land wars" went the way of the dodo over 300 years ago. Wars are now fought in air, and at sea, not just land, and in secret. "Huge land wars" also involve guerilla and more secret warfare too, not just massed confrontations. In WW2 a large part of the war being ended can be attributed to British secret services operating in France. You must understand that conflicts like WW2 are not just about events like the Battle of the Bulge and Operation Barbarossa etcetera. It shows a lack of understanding to say that masses, equipment and strategy are the only things that matter. Almost all of these wars involve guerilla warfare and secret agents (for want of a better term) operating under the veil.