What exactly is the point of slavery in Fallout 3?

J

J Marcus

First time out of the vault
I don't know if these was mentioned before, so apologies if I make another thread about it.

Nowhere have I seen anyone, in any town make use of slaves. No one seems to be buying or selling them. In Fallout 2 at least its apparent that Vault City was buying slaves from the Den.
There aren't even any slaver parties capturing poor oblivious travelers.

So what exactly is the point of all that? What exactly is driving Paradise Falls' economy? Apparently no one is buying their slaves. And I'm not sure where they get them either. It also seems uneconomical to even have slavery given that there's barely any people anywhere anyway, and the fact that raiders outnumber town residents (if we can call settlements populated by 2-10 people a town, and a town populated only by children!)

Did I miss anything, if only just a single slave owner?

There also seems to be too many radscorpions.

Where are the tribals? Surely it makes sense that following almost total devastation from nuclear war, any remnant of human civilization that barely survived will take the form or revert back to primitive tribes. I don't understand why Bethesda ignored that aspect.

Seems like a crude half-assed gesture to fans with regards to the first two games.

I would have respected them more if they introduced something new instead.


I'm also new here as you can see, so I just want to express how cool it is to be part of this online community. I've read some very interesting comments from some what it looks to be very smart group of people here, even if it's just a gaming community. It's amazing to see the deep level of appreciation you guys have for these great games, which is uncommon.
 
Great observation. You'd think that they'd be using slaves to farm crops or something like in FO2, but in FO3 people seem to eat just centuries old Salisbury steak and squirrel bits. Although I have never seen even one actual squirrel in the game.

The more I think about the inconsistencies in this game, the more infuriated I am with it. I'm about to abandon my completionist tendencies and just speed through to see the ending I already expect to be awful.

Griping online is only a small consolation to my many hours of wasted life playing this game.
 
Ozymandias said:
Griping online is only a small consolation to my many hours of wasted life playing this game.
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Hehe, I feel your pain man, I really do.

How about we start up a Fallout 3 support group, eh?
 
Gob is implied to be a slave to Moriarty... So that's one I guess.

Then again, this is another symptom of the Minimalist disease, where the Vault of 1000 people seems to be composed of about a dozen people and two levels, and agriculture consists of one or two domesticated Brahmin in the whole world.

I mean, Fallout, while obviously suffering from the same problem (can't exactly make hundreds of useless NPCs in Vault 13) was actually a little better about this, with sorry little victory garden-looking things in Shady Sands and the ability to pretend that terrain around a city was all agriculture.

In Fallout 3, the pretending is harder, thanks to their full, open-world system. But that's just one of the drawbacks of that kind of free-roam game design.
 
No it's clearly not.

Look back to TES:Daggerfall. That game was HUGE. Even if it was randomized it would have been so easy to put unqiue locations, NPCs, encounters and a big randomized wilderness.

But guess they had to stick to craptastic Gamebryo.

Also I happen to think the devs simply didnt think about that at all. They wanted first and foremost a successful console game without too much to invest. So the priorities are pretty well laid out after that decision:

- Easy, dumbed down gameplay without much thinking of consequences (concerning the player or the gameworld)

- Lot's of spiffy gore (Blood seems to be more appropriate than Sex)

- Recycling of a dated engine with HUGE limits.

list goes on.

In comparison take a look at NWN2: storm of zephir. It's so obvioues that Obsidian listened to the fans and really tried to create something with depth.
 
farmface said:
They use slaves to power the wasteland's massive clipboard factories
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The slaves are utilized to put those red tricycles in random locations!

Profit said:
In Fallout 3, the pretending is harder, thanks to their full, open-world system. But that's just one of the drawbacks of that kind of free-roam game design.
Click to expand...

No, not really. It's a drawback of wanting to have a fully realised world and then just not realising it. The burden of that lies with Bethesda. I can't think of another RPG that fails so epically to make its world come alive - not in the sense that people move around and do stuff and there's a feeling that stuff happens even if you're not there, Fallout 3 actually does that pretty well, but in the sense that the world can still convince you it could exist if you stop for a minute and think.

Fallout 3's world has:
- Settlements that are significantly too defenseless for their location amongst super mutants or raiders. Rivet City, the Citadel and Raven Rock are the only locations for which it makes sense that they have yet to be looted.

- Settlements that have no apparent means of survival. What do Rivet City, Megaton or Tenpenny Tower survive on? There's not a bit of agriculture in the entire wasteland except for the Brahmin pen at Arefu.

- Old technical facilities that are not closed off in any way yet have not been looted in 200 years. This just doesn't make any sense.

- Slaves that no one buys. Scavengers that survive in unlikely points (and what is there even to scavenge?) In other words: an unlikely economy.

Bethesda simply did not make the effort to create a plausible game world. We can all make up shit to make it sound plausible, but in the game itself, it simply is not.
 
J Marcus said:
I don't know if these was mentioned before, so apologies if I make another thread about it.

Nowhere have I seen anyone, in any town make use of slaves. No one seems to be buying or selling them. In Fallout 2 at least its apparent that Vault City was buying slaves from the Den.
There aren't even any slaver parties capturing poor oblivious travelers.

So what exactly is the point of all that? What exactly is driving Paradise Falls' economy? Apparently no one is buying their slaves. And I'm not sure where they get them either. It also seems uneconomical to even have slavery given that there's barely any people anywhere anyway, and the fact that raiders outnumber town residents (if we can call settlements populated by 2-10 people a town, and a town populated only by children!)

Did I miss anything, if only just a single slave owner?

There also seems to be too many radscorpions.

Where are the tribals? Surely it makes sense that following almost total devastation from nuclear war, any remnant of human civilization that barely survived will take the form or revert back to primitive tribes. I don't understand why Bethesda ignored that aspect.

Seems like a crude half-assed gesture to fans with regards to the first two games.

I would have respected them more if they introduced something new instead.


I'm also new here as you can see, so I just want to express how cool it is to be part of this online community. I've read some very interesting comments from some what it looks to be very smart group of people here, even if it's just a gaming community. It's amazing to see the deep level of appreciation you guys have for these great games, which is uncommon.
Click to expand...

What we have here, my friend, is a marked inability to suspend disbelief. Why is it that you are incredulous in regards to the Wasteland economy, but not to the fact that every bovine born after the bombs fell developed the exact same mutation, which manifests itself in the exact same way amongst all members of the species? Surely, this is beyond belief!

Learn to accept the unreal as real...it's part of the enjoyment. You'll have alot more fun if you stop meticulously examing every little facet about the game's world.

I'm new, too, though I've read the forums unregistered for quite a while. Welcome.

(Slave owners in the Capital Wasteland include, but are not limited to: Moriarty (who posibly owns Gob), Eurlogy Jones (owner of numerous slaves, most notably Clover), and Mr. Azrukahl (owner of Charon)...FYI)
 
Shattering Fast said:
What we have here, my friend, is a marked inability to suspend disbelief.
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Not really.

Suspending disbelief is only valid if the thing you have to suspend disbelief on fits the setting - if it has verisimilitude. Brahmin fit the idea of the whole retro-50's going on, the world not being plausible has no such excuse.
 
Brother None said:
Shattering Fast said:
What we have here, my friend, is a marked inability to suspend disbelief.
Click to expand...

Not really.

Suspending disbelief is only valid if the thing you have to suspend disbelief on fits the setting - if it has verisimilitude. Brahmin fit the idea of the whole retro-50's going on, the world not being plausible has no such excuse.
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I suppose I didn't communicate my thoughts on Brahmin as well as I should have. It is not the mutated bovine that was unbelievable to me, but the fact that they all mutated identically in an environment with varying levels of radioactivity. Now, this is not an issue to me, personally. I happen to find Brahmin quite charming.

However, to some one lacking an ability to suspend their disbelief, they will see these creatures and ask: "Why do all of these cows look the same?" They look the same because the developers cannot be bothered to create every Brahmin as an individual, despite the fact that it would certainly lend a bit towards the believability of the gaming environment.

And now, the issue of slavery. We know it exists within the game, and we know why it exists in the game (because the strong dominate the weak, an whatnot)...it is submitted to the player as something to be accepted as part of the game world. Is it not enough to simply accept that slavery is an important aspect of the Capital Wasteland? Just as it is easy to accept that brahmin exist, even though they all look the same and aren't clones (presumably)?

If the various economic mechanisms of slavery were evident in the Wasteland, it would certainly lend towards the game's overall environment. It would make the game better, certainly. But its absence, in and of itself, is not game breaking (not that I'm implying the OP thought it was game breaking). The fact that I don't see slaves and slavers doing their thing in a believable way does not ruin my experienc eof the game, just as seeing Brahmin mutate in an unrealistic way does not ruin my experience of the game.

Then again, this post isn't about Brahmin. It's about immersing oneself in something that is more or less a fantasy world that doesn't always have to make sense to be amusing.
 
See, this is the difference between an RPG and many other genres. An RPG needs to be internally consistent and make sense, because you're expected to live through an alter ego in this world, and if the world doesn't make sense, that's simply not feasible.
 
Shattering Fast said:
It is not the mutated bovine that was unbelievable to me, but the fact that they all mutated identically in an environment with varying levels of radioactivity. Now, this is not an issue to me, personally.
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That ties in to the Golden Era sci fi roots - a tendency for "mutations" to produce exactly the same results despite the fact that this is kind of counterintuitive for mutations is kind of a staple of the sci fi roots Fallout has - the same goes for giant animals. And hell, even if that wasn't the case, you could explain it as Brahmin becoming the dominant mutated cow species and the rest dying off (Brahmin are remarkably well suited for post-apocalyptic life).

A more valid example would be the centaurs - supposedly random mutations of animals and humans thrown into the vats, they somehow all look the same, both in Fallout 1/2 and in Fallout 3. That doesn't make any sense, and especially for a 3D game like Fallout 3 it reeks of laziness.

Regardless, you're comparing apples to pears. The issue of brahmins is one of the implausibility of such a creature being a single mutation biologically. Such a thing is explained by the approach Fallout takes to science (that is: by the Science!) approach, it does actually fit with the idea of the world and thus doesn't break verisimilitude. You can suspend disbelief because while this element breaks your concept of reality it does not break the game's own concept of reality. This is not the case for implausible ways of survival, or slaves existing without anyone utilizing them.

Your arguments sounds like the old "you're complaining about (...) in a fantasy world with laser guns!?" Apples and pears, Johnny, just because something is a fantasy world with fantasy items doesn't mean that a) the setting shouldn't be consistent and b) the world shouldn't be plausible. Fallout 3, like Fallout 2, fails at both to one level or another (Fallout 2 fails more at the former, Fallout 3 more at the latter).
 
Shattering Fast said:
It's about immersing oneself in something ... that doesn't always have to make sense to be amusing.
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Which is why reading a thesaurus is on par with reading actual literature.

But seriously, the ability to immerse oneself into something should not be mutually exclusive with having a critical mind. Hundreds of WTFs that arise when a person with a developed ability to think critically tries to immerse him/herself into a particular piece of fiction are not indicative of that persons inability to be immersed, but rather of the poor quality of said work of fiction.
 
Well, I said my bit.

My point being, if you gentlemen want to allow this issue to further dampen your enjoyment of Fallout 3, then be my guest. My guess is that most of you don't need another reason to begin with.

As for me, I'm going to keep playing. There are still a few character archetypes I have not explored, and about 60% of the entire DC Wastes. I do believe I'll go have fun, instead of griping about things I find ludicrous. I think I come out the winner in that department.
 
Good for you. I hope that next time you visit a settlement in Fallout 3 the curious absence of any slaves anywhere does not return to your mind and start gnawing at it.

Or the fact that lightly armed people live in a settlement that's not fortified and let their children play outside alone while all manner of mutated molerats, deathclaws, bears, etc and raiders roam the nearby countryside.

Or... Nah, just have FUN dude!
 
Shattering Fast said:
My point being, if you gentlemen want to allow this issue to further dampen your enjoyment of Fallout 3, then be my guest. My guess is that most of you don't need another reason to begin with.
Click to expand...

'k. Here's a thought: don't rudely dismiss other people's opinions as invalid instead of providing counter-arguments. If you can't provide counter-arguments, then just drop the issue. Don't pretend it is somehow our task to ignore flaws in the game and if we don't it's our fault that the game is less enjoyable. A flaw is a flaw unless you can argue it isn't.

Don't pull this one again, it's as close to trolling as you can get without actually trolling.
 
Shattering Fast said:
Well, I said my bit.

My point being, if you gentlemen want to allow this issue to further dampen your enjoyment of Fallout 3, then be my guest. My guess is that most of you don't need another reason to begin with.

As for me, I'm going to keep playing. There are still a few character archetypes I have not explored, and about 60% of the entire DC Wastes. I do believe I'll go have fun, instead of griping about things I find ludicrous. I think I come out the winner in that department.
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I find it hard to enjoy mediocre game. I cant think of any other word for this game: mediocre.

Easy combat, no tactical elements at all. And stupid AI, with OP VATS, in which you take 10 % dmg.

Dialogue is bad , short and has very few skill and stat checks compared to previous titles of the series.

Non combat route is broken, you have to kill humans to get through this game. SPECIAL is implemented in a way that makes it pointless, as i can play with END 2-3 chars relatively easily.

NPCs have same voices, and looks at some new games, they have all different voice actors. And they tend to be unforgettable.

Animation is bad if you try to use 3RD person, as you "glide" sometimes.

And worst its replay value is nil. 2 endings and thats it ? Feels stupid that my actions have no effects on the towns, i don't get to know what happens after the game. And the way the ending is done , it simply is not acceptable.

And not to mention that the game world makes no sense, working computers middle of nowhere ? Electricity from non excistant generators and there are no farms to produce food.

Look at Fallout hub had farms, and this is 2008 and they are too lazy to make some farms and copy paste ?

The game is bad sequel, its storyline makes Fallout 2s ending pointless: "you destroyed the enclave in the previous game, but oops you missed some and they regroup on the other side of the country to destroy wasteland"

It lacks everything that a great game should have.

As a Fallout sequel 4-5.
As a game 7. Or 8 if you like easy FPS.

If those aren't good reasons, i dare you to find better ones.
 
Brother None said:
A more valid example would be the centaurs - supposedly random mutations of animals and humans thrown into the vats, they somehow all look the same, both in Fallout 1/2 and in Fallout 3. That doesn't make any sense, and especially for a 3D game like Fallout 3 it reeks of laziness.
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Why does it reek of laziness in only Fallout 3? Why doesn't it do so in the original Fallouts? And why would they randomly generate different models of a centaur to fix such a minute detail?
 
CrazyLegs said:
Why does it reek of laziness in only Fallout 3? Why doesn't it do so in the original Fallouts? And why would they randomly generate different models of a centaur to fix such a minute detail?
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Sprites are sprites, you really don't see the details, not as much as in 3D. And youd think they would have enough time in f3, as they made it for 4 years. Fallout 2 was done in 1.
And it really doesn't bother me that much, not a big deal to me.
 
CrazyLegs said:
Why does it reek of laziness in only Fallout 3? Why doesn't it do so in the original Fallouts? And why would they randomly generate different models of a centaur to fix such a minute detail?
Click to expand...
He said that it was bad period and then went on to say that it's worse in Fallout 3. That's perfectly fair given the comparative budgets of the games but I agree that Fallout 1&2 should have a few different sprites for them as well.
 
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