What is the proper solution to Tenpenny Tower

[Risewild]

Also, if you kill Roy before he kills every human in Tenpenny Tower will give you negative karma. As my video also shows.
Roy Phillips is set in the game as a good karma character. A goody two shoes. Not a neutral karma, but a good karma . Only changes after he kills the human residents.
So there was this intention from the Devs that Roy is a good person until he kills the residents.

 

[NMLevesque]

if you think about it the whole location of the Tower in the middle of nowhere makes no fucking sense

None of their settlements do. It's entirely unclear how any of their residents are even alive. No water sources are evident, except for Arefu and Rivet City...kind of. All of the farms are abandoned except for one used as a hideout by raiders.

They just add brahmin to some, but not enough, or any pasture for that matter. I guess we're just supposed to assume that there's a fuck tonne of hunting going on just out of sight, despite the fact that no one ever seems to leave their settlements. Maybe they buy meat from the raiders that always attack them.

 

[CT Phipps]

Except it does happen and it happens everytime you pick that choice.

I shot Roy in the head which is what I thought u were referring to.

But yes, as usual a lot of the complaints here make no damn sense.

1. The quest shows that being the Wasteland Messiah and doing good for good sake doesn't always turn out alright. Ooooo, good intentions doesn't always end up having good consequences! God, you can't whine about how unrealistic and happy Fallout 3 is then say that it not showing good actions always results in good consequences is bad.

2. Tenpenny Tower is part of how the game shows all of the settlements are interlinked. You get to Tenpenny Tower if you nuke Megaton and if you don't then you have still killed Mister Burke. It's linked to the quest "You have to shoot em in the Head", Daring Dashwood, and many other quests. It's about illustrating the "Rich" in the game.

All of the settlements are interlinked and all of the quests have consequences that are often commented on by Three Dog. Good and Evil Karma at the very least are a consequnece for how locals think about you.

3. The complaints the game doesn't show vast amounts of food and pasture is one of the dumbst ones in the game because there's never enough resources in the game for that. Besides, the whole point is that the game is showing an oppressive and barely functioning society just struggling to hold on.

4. Good Karma and Bad Karma is your reputatiion. Roy is not known as a bad guy so people think killing him is unjustified even if you kill him knowing that he's planning on assaulting the Tower's residents...who are known to be assholes.

 

[CerberusGate]

But yes, as usual a lot of the complaints here make no damn sense.

Phipps, it's not hard to comprehend that people can have different opinions to you. I imagine you've known this throughout your time here.

1. The quest shows that being the Wasteland Messiah and doing good for good sake doesn't always turn out alright. Ooooo, good intentions doesn't always end up having good consequences! God, you can't whine about how unrealistic and happy Fallout 3 is then say that it not showing good actions always results in good consequences is bad.

It would be good if the mechanics actually intended to portray such a message. @Risewild showed that it was meant to be played straight up to the twist with no way around it outside mods.

2. Tenpenny Tower is part of how the game shows all of the settlements are interlinked. You get to Tenpenny Tower if you nuke Megaton and if you don't then you have still killed Mister Burke. It's linked to the quest "You have to shoot em in the Head", Daring Dashwood, and many other quests. It's about illustrating the "Rich" in the game.

All of the settlements are interlinked and all of the quests have consequences that are often commented on by Three Dog. Good and Evil Karma at the very least are a consequnece for how locals think about you.

Tenpenny Tower is an isolated place though so it's not properly linked to other settlements outside a nebulous radio DJ who they probably don't care about. It isn't even on the caravan trade route and I don't think there is even any agriculture or animal-rearing to justify what do they eat. Plus you could leave Mr Burke alive even if you reject his option in The Power of Atom. Also, Dashwood isn't an actual quest and per the wiki, there is only 4 quests linked to Tenpenny Tower.

3. The complaints the game doesn't show vast amounts of food and pasture is one of the dumbst ones in the game because there's never enough resources in the game for that. Besides, the whole point is that the game is showing an oppressive and barely functioning society just struggling to hold on.

But New Vegas showed that it is possible to depict that, Goodsprings had a spring, crops and Bighorners. Again, Tenpenny Tower comes across as a place that ought to have fallen apart within a couple of months due to the lack of food and water. All they have is fortifications and that becomes useless if the guards manning said fortifications are thirsty and starving:

4. Good Karma and Bad Karma is your reputatiion. Roy is not known as a bad guy so people think killing him is unjustified even if you kill him knowing that he's planning on assaulting the Tower's residents...who are known to be assholes.

It does highlight the downside of the binary moral system of the game. The quest has morally grey issues going about but it's filtered via the binary morality of the game.

 

[Norzan]

Besides, the whole point is that the game is showing an oppressive and barely functioning society just struggling to hold on.

200 years, i repeat 200 years. How they are still alive if they are still struggling? Fucking Fallout 1 wasteland looks better and it was 84 years after the bombs fell. That's 116 years prior to Fallout 3.

CerberusGate mentioned New Vegas showing where people get their food and want to know another game that did the same? Fallout 4. Fucking Fallout 4 did this, it showed where people get their food. It showed animals being herd, it showed crops. Fallout 3 barely shows any, if at all, reliable sources of food.

And for the last time: consequences need to be made aware to the player. Consequences that out of hand that weren't properly shown that could happen, like the Tenpenny Tower quest, are terrible design. You need to tell the player that this could happen, not blindside them. Not to mention it's get worse in repeated playthroughs because you know now it will happen and the entire quest premise falls apart even harder.

 

[CT Phipps]

200 years, i repeat 200 years. How they are still alive if they are still struggling? Fucking Fallout 1 wasteland looks better and it was 84 years after the bombs fell. That's 116 years prior to Fallout 3.

This is a strangequestion because there's suffering societies today that have been in existence since....well, forever because we're all the descendants of previous citizens.

Tell me, why do people live at the subsistence level in real life?

Also, what idiot thinks societies always get better and happier? It's not much of a post-apocalypse if the possibility of rebuilding not happening isn't a danger. Humanity might go extinct rather than recover.

CerberusGate mentioned New Vegas showing where people get their food and want to know another game that did the same? Fallout 4. Fucking Fallout 4 did this, it showed where people get their food. It showed animals being herd, it showed crops. Fallout 3 barely shows any, if at all, reliable sources of food.

And? The gameworlds can't show everything.

And for the last time: consequences need to be made aware to the player. Consequences that out of hand that weren't properly shown that could happen, like the Tenpenny Tower quest, are terrible design. You need to tell the player that this could happen, not blindside them. Not to mention it's get worse in repeated playthroughs because you know now it will happen and the entire quest premise falls apart even harder.

You know what the original best Fallout quest resulted in? If you sided with the sheriff against Gizmo, the entirety of the town became a murderous fascist WIld West Hellhole.

Most Mods restore that because it's truer to the original Fallout 1 writers' vision that sometimes there's unexpected consequences for what you do.

 

[CT Phipps]

Phipps, it's not hard to comprehend that people can have different opinions to you. I imagine you've known this throughout your time here.

Yes, I have become colder and more ruthless. More like No Mutants Allowed.

It would be good if the mechanics actually intended to portray such a message. @Risewild showed that it was meant to be played straight up to the twist with no way around it outside mods.

In the original Fallout, the Junktown ending similarly blindsided players before they were forced to change it. This is one of the areas where Fallout 3 acted like the original developers. Instead, people complain about it. The simple fact is that you should never be absolutely perfect in the results from your actions.

Tenpenny Tower is an isolated place though so it's not properly linked to other settlements outside a nebulous radio DJ who they probably don't care about. It isn't even on the caravan trade route and I don't think there is even any agriculture or animal-rearing to justify what do they eat. Plus you could leave Mr Burke alive even if you reject his option in The Power of Atom. Also, Dashwood isn't an actual quest and per the wiki, there is only 4 quests linked to Tenpenny Tower.

Tenpenny Tower is a settlement that exists as a retreat for the richest Wastelanders. Tenpenny took the place, rebuilt it, and turned it into a fortress for those prosperous enough to live there. It's basically the closest thing to luxury in the setting. It's not a farming community but a place where people retire with their fortunes.

But New Vegas showed that it is possible to depict that, Goodsprings had a spring, crops and Bighorners. Again, Tenpenny Tower comes across as a place that ought to have fallen apart within a couple of months due to the lack of food and water. All they have is fortifications and that becomes useless if the guards manning said fortifications are thirsty and starving:

I acknowledge that they don't show farms, cattle, and so on in Fallout 3. I just don't think it matters because I don't think there's only a few dozen settlers and 10,000 Raiders in the Capital Wasteland. When making an open world, you have to sacrifice some realism for gameplay.

It does highlight the downside of the binary moral system of the game. The quest has morally grey issues going about but it's filtered via the binary morality of the game.

I think it's aesop works well for the Wasteland with, "Sometimes people who are discriminated against aren't grateful to be treated better or nice people."

However, I should point out that in the game if you go down to Roy and listen in before you talk to him, you'll find him talking about murdering everyone in the tower with his gang. In short, giving reason to kill him beyond metagaming.

 

[Risewild]

I don't like to argument against other people's opinions. So I will just address this:

Good Karma and Bad Karma is your reputatiion. Roy is not known as a bad guy so people think killing him is unjustified even if you kill him knowing that he's planning on assaulting the Tower's residents...who are known to be assholes.

You are misunderstanding what karma is. Karma is not a reputation in Fallout 3, karma is a universal force about your actions, pre-planned depending on what the devs morality were when they made the game.
What you do affects the world, if you do "good" things, the world supposedly becomes a better place, you get good karma, but if you do "bad" things, the world becomes a worst place, you get negative karma.
If karma was a reputation, why would it change when you steal something or kill someone "good" when there is no one else around to see you do it? You can't get a reputation unless someone sees what you're doing.

Another proof of this is when you get out of Vault 101 and go straight to Megaton. When you meet Lucas Simms for the first time, he says that he doesn't know why, but he thinks you're alright (good karma) or that you have a weird look, the kind that means trouble, and that if you misbehave, he will kill you (negative karma). He says it's the feeling he gets from looking at you, it is not a reputation.

Tenpenny Tower comes across as a place that ought to have fallen apart within a couple of months due to the lack of food and water.

Also, Tenpenny Tower is the only settlement in the wasteland that has non-irradiated water through it's pipes. Not even Raven Rock has non-irradiated water.

Tenpenny Tower is a settlement that exists as a retreat for the richest Wastelanders. Tenpenny took the place, rebuilt it, and turned it into a fortress for those prosperous enough to live there. It's basically the closest thing to luxury in the setting. It's not a farming community but a place where people retire with their fortunes.

This causes some issues. They have as many heavy armored and armed guards as residents, and yet, Roy manages to kill them all by himself in the blink of an eye and without making a mess of the tower?

 

[CT Phipps]

I don't like to argument against other people's opinions. So I will just address this:

You are misunderstanding what karma is. Karma is not a reputation in Fallout 3, karma is a universal force about your actions, pre-planned depending on what the devs morality were when they made the game.
What you do affects the world, if you do "good" things, the world supposedly becomes a better place, you get good karma, but if you do "bad" things, the world becomes a worst place, you get negative karma.
If karma was a reputation, why would it change when you steal something or kill someone "good" when there is no one else around to see you do it? You can't get a reputation unless someone sees what you're doing.

Eh, fair enough.

Also, Tenpenny Tower is the only settlement in the wasteland that has non-irradiated water through it's pipes. Not even Raven Rock has non-irradiated water.

Why blow up Megaton? Because that pad is SWEET.

This causes some issues. They have as many heavy armored and armed guards as residents, and yet, Roy manages to kill them all by himself in the blink of an eye and without making a mess of the tower?

Provided Roy gets invited in, he's going to be able to ambush and murder everyone. Besides, he has an unlimited number of ghouls which won't attack him and his friends.

We also know his plan is to get into the tower through the basement if we listen to his plan like I described above.

 

[Risewild]

Provided Roy gets invited in, he's going to be able to ambush and murder everyone. Besides, he has an unlimited number of ghouls which won't attack him and his friends.

We also know his plan is to get into the tower through the basement if we listen to his plan like I described above.

He can't ambush everyone. There are usually 3 or 4 guards just in the lobby and 5 or so outside of the tower. He can't ambush people with so many guards around.

Also Gustavo would be keeping a close eye on Roy, since he doesn't trust Roy and even hates him. I doubt Roy's actions wouldn't be monitored at all times.

And Roy would have to get the key, and then go and unlock the door. And all of that, again, it would be very suspicious for him to wander around in "restricted areas" (Tenpenny tells you no one is allowed to go to those areas) without the guards stopping him. Specially because Gustavo does not trust him.

 

[CT Phipps]

He can't ambush everyone. There are usually 3 or 4 guards just in the lobby and 5 or so outside of the tower. He can't ambush people with so many guards around.

Also Gustavo would be keeping a close eye on Roy, since he doesn't trust Roy and even hates him. I doubt Roy's actions wouldn't be monitored at all times.

And Roy would have to get the key, and then go and unlock the door. And all of that, again, it would be very suspicious for him to wander around in "restricted areas" (Tenpenny tells you no one is allowed to go to those areas) without the guards stopping him. Specially because Gustavo does not trust him.

I think that's giving a lot of credit to the people you can massacre on both sides. At the end of the day, there's 9 guards and Roy has however many Feral Ghouls he wants as well as free access to the place once you convince the people in the Tower that Roy is harmless.

He's also a hardened mercenary.

Either way, this is game vs. lore. In lore, killing a person is no harder than in our world.

 

[Risewild]

He's also a hardened mercenary.

So is Gustavo.

Either way, this is game vs. lore. In lore, killing a person is no harder than in our world.

It is harder if they have combat armor and all you have is a leather armor, since both sides use the same type of weapons (assault rifle).

Again, Roy wouldn't be allowed to go even close to the generator room.

You mean the generator room? What the hell do you need to know about that for? That area is strictly off limits. {threatening}
You stay away from the generator room! {angry he has to keep repeating himself}

Gustavo hates ghouls and thinks they will turn feral at any minute, he would have Roy under a close eye at all times:

Your bleeding heart is liable to get you in a lot of trouble one day. {bitter mercenary telling it like it is}
Look kid, eventually all Ghouls go zombie on your ass. It's only a matter of time. {bitter mercenary telling it like it is}

A goddamn disaster waiting to happen that's what they are.
Sure, maybe you can get over the fact they look like someone took a cheese grater to their face. But it's what you don't see that's the problem. {talking about loathsome creature}
The radiation slowly eats away their brain, then they go zombie on you. It's better for everyone to kill them before all that, if you ask me. {angrily talking about killing a disgusting creature before it gets even more dangerous}

If Tenpenny is dead:

After Tenpenny died, I assumed full command. And since I hate Ghouls, I guess the answer to that question is pretty damn clear. {angry mercenary}
Those Ghouls can live here over my goddamn body! {angry mercenary putting a nosey civilian in place.}

Someone like Gustavo would probably kill Roy if he even just walks by the generator room door. Then he would just say that Roy was trying to break in, as an excuse and be done with. I doubt Tenpenny or any other residents (with the exception of the two ghouls) would even give it a second thought.

 

[CT Phipps]

And yet WE are able to do a lot of things that get by Gustavo.

I think you overestimate his abilities.

Mind you, I actually wrote a brief scene of how it would happen.

Roy: Hey, Daring, would you leave the generator room door open for me?

Daring: Why's that?

Roy: I want to have a tryst with a girl in private.

Daring: Oh sure.

But Daring is an idiot.

Which is to say once Roy is in, he can figure a way to do it.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Wait....

the tap water of the main base of the Enclave is radioactive?

Well, that's fucking stupid, it is not?

Do the game have any explain if they purify the water?

So, you kill EVERYONE if you allied with Eden?

 

[CT Phipps]

Wait....

the tap water of the main base of the Enclave is radioactive?

Well, that's fucking stupid, it is not?

Do the game have any explain if they purify the water?

So, you kill EVERYONE if you allied with Eden?

It's always hard to tell whether a work is a bug or a storytelling feature in Bethesda but I'm inclined to think that is more likely a bug than a sign the Enclave's own technology is breaking down and they need Project: Purity for reasons other than to dominate the Wasteland.

 

[Risewild]

And yet WE are able to do a lot of things that get by Gustavo.

WE are not ghouls. Gustavo HATES ghouls and thinks they can turn feral at any minute. He sees Roy as a walking time bomb.
Do you think he wouldn't notice Roy walking around in a restricted area? He is the chief of security for a reason.

Not to mention that if Roy managed to release the ghouls, the tower would be a mess, but it's clean and there is no feral inside the walls or the tower. How did they managed to cleanly kill everyone.

Here is a video showing how the tower looks like when we let the ghouls attack the tower:

Notice how the interior is totally destroyed. But when Roy kills everyone, the tower is in it's pristine form...

 

[CT Phipps]

The argument you're making is, "Racism will save them."

Really?

And maybe Roy killed them other way, Stealth Boy and slitting throats. Again, once Roy is inside the tower I don't see how it'll be that difficult to kill him just because one merc doesn't trust him. But that's just me.

Roy could also have cleaned up after the massacre.

 

[NMLevesque]

After a certain point, you have to admit that the amount of effort that goes into 'explaining' this is emblematic of how bad it is. If, as a work of art, it fails to communicate its message then it has failed. At a minimum that much is certain.

 

[CT Phipps]

After a certain point, you have to admit that the amount of effort that goes into 'explaining' this is emblematic of how bad it is. If, as a work of art, it fails to communicate its message then it has failed. At a minimum that much is certain.

Honestly, no one has explained to me what's wrong with it.

All they've said is, "We don't like the results of a good karma action having bad consequences"

and "I don't believe Roy could pull it off."

Which I find neither really holds up under scrutiny.

I feel it's extra weird because people complain constantly that the plots are shallow but when they color out of the lines, they get criticized.

 

[CerberusGate]

Also, Tenpenny Tower is the only settlement in the wasteland that has non-irradiated water through it's pipes. Not even Raven Rock has non-irradiated water.

Wow... I totally forgot about that.

So what was the point of Project Purity when all you needed was a tower in the middle of nowhere then?