What Remains: A Singleplayermod Basing on the FOnline Engine

[Surf Solar]

Yes, there are new ones for the new weapons, levelup, your turn, AP refreshed, clicking on arrows in character screen etc.

 

[x'il]

-Small Guns/Big Guns/Energy Guns have been merged to the "Firearms" Skill.
(...)Every Weapon can be used (with SPECIAL requirements ofcourse), so take your pick!(...)

-The Unarmed and Melee Skills are now merged into the "Close Quarter Combats" Skill.

Surf, i am dissapoint.

 

[Surf Solar]

Heh, why? There are 1-2 energy weapons for example, only reachable at the endgame. Would you put points into a skill which is useless throughout the major part of the game?

 

[Lexx]

But this argument doesn't work with melee / unarmed.

 

[Surf Solar]

Yes, in my book, Unarmed/Melee doesn't make much sense to be seperated... This always puzzled me, why do I have to invest in two seperate skills when I want to play a CQC character?

Also, if you are concerned about Jack of all Trades Characters, as written in the blog due to merging some skills together, the number of skillpoints one can earn has been lowered aswell, to compensate that.

 

[x'il]

Heh, why? There are 1-2 energy weapons for example, only reachable at the endgame. Would you put points into a skill which is useless throughout the major part of the game?

As i see it (and i've seen it before), that's not really a valid argument, it's just merely an excuse to both simplify things for the mod or game makers (lazy, lazy ), and allow the player to use any weapon without any specialization sacrifice or penalty: a.k.a "dumbing down". And that's the only real reason to merge those skills.

See, what you say about energy weapons may have happened in FO1/2, but we aren't talking about FO1/2, right? nothing's stopping you from making the skills more useful throughout the whole mod/game; from adding low tier energy weapons for instance (things like home-made stuff, broken down/damaged stuff, old weaker protoypes, etc, etc, up to the bigger, better and shinnier ones). It just needs a bit more work, imagining and dedication that's all.

Yes, in my book, Unarmed/Melee doesn't make much sense to be seperated... This always puzzled me, why do I have to invest in two seperate skills when I want to play a CQC character?

Why stop there? why not merge all firearms, melee, hand to hand, whatever into one big skill called "Combat Skill"?. Likewise, all speech, barter, whatever could be merged into "Personality Skill", all science/knowledge-based skills into "Adquired Knowledge Skill"... reducing it to all but 3 major skills that would cover everything, the amount and frequency of skill points the player would get per level would then be adjusted accordingly and that's it!: no more having to keep track of more than dozen, specialized, pesky skills, no more having to choose what my character would be an expert in, because with points in "Combat Skill" he gets to be an ultimate fighter/samurai/sniper/demolitions expert/flash gordon/rambo, or with points into "Knowledge" he gets to be skynet or God or something... See my point?, yes, it's hyperbole, but that's where that road leads, that's the road of the more current 'rpg's': simpler systems (less work), more insta-gratification, less dificulty for the player (win!).

 

[Bableves]

I can see the point x'il is making and I have to add that fighting with your fists (and feet for that matter) is significantly different than fighting with a knife (or a sword), so making it two different skills is perfectly valid in my book.

 

[Surf Solar]

a.k.a "dumbing down". And that's the only real reason to merge those skills.

But that's just not true. As I said, I consider heavy military weaponry (miniguns, rocket launchers etc) aswell as energy weaponry as, well, highly advanced military stuff. The mod plays shortly after 2077, not in the far too long feature, some old military organisations are still around and there is no chance for the player to get this equipment, as (s)he is a "civilian", no chosen one, no vault dweller. It focuses on selfmade weaponry, not high tech stuff. But I don't want to remove it completely, stuff like miniguns etc can be obtained in the very endgame. That's why the skills are merged to Firearms, to not have Big Guns or Energy Guns useless through 95% of the game and/or destroy the early image of a fucked up world without high tech stuff everywhere. That's why it got merged, not because out of laziness. If I'd be lazy, I could have just let these skills ingame and let people play a broken game where a skill is completely useless through most of the game. Now, with changed STR Requirements and other stuff I added, they are balanced within the Firearms skill.

from adding low tier energy weapons for instance (things like home-made stuff, broken down/damaged stuff, old weaker protoypes, etc, etc, up to the bigger, better and shinnier ones). It just needs a bit more work, imagining and dedication that's all.

When imaging things where lasers and/or even plasma rays come out, my mind just screams "no!" - I consider it as something only the military uses, not something which can be easily scrapped together with some spare junk parts at home.


I know what you mean with "dumbing down" stuff, but here I can't really see some dumbing down. As for melee/unarmed it is debatable and I agree on some of your points. The merge will stay, but I'll do a bit tweaking around some new skills.

 

[x'il]

a.k.a "dumbing down". And that's the only real reason to merge those skills.

But that's just not true. As I said, I consider heavy military weaponry (miniguns, rocket launchers etc) aswell as energy weaponry as, well, highly advanced military stuff.

It's not. You might consider it like it, but it's not so in the FO1/2 universe. Just look at the text descriptions of the laser, plasma and pulse pistols; they're simple handguns manufactured by private companies and sold on the market, the laser pistol description even states that it's a civilian model.

The mod plays shortly after 2077, not in the far too long feature, some old military organisations are still around and there is no chance for the player to get this equipment, as (s)he is a "civilian", no chosen one, no vault dweller.

There being a chance or not for the player to get equipment 'x' or 'y' and therefore according to your interpretation excusing the merging of those skills into one is entirely up to you, the mod maker, and not the universe/setting (as shown in my above paragraph) nor the disposition of the player character (irrelevant).

It focuses on selfmade weaponry, not high tech stuff. But I don't want to remove it completely, stuff like miniguns etc can be obtained in the very endgame.

Why is it so hard to imagine home-made energy weapons? the FO universe had hovering servant robots being sold on tv commercials, remember the FO1 intro part about mr. handy ("it walks the dog!", heh)? and in any case home-made doesn't necesarily mean 'made from scratch', it could be stuff made from old broken down parts, scavanged old stuff, repaired, etc. Same for big guns. And besides, we're not talking about an mmo, item distribution as it relates to skills doesn't have to be 'balanced': if properly done, at any given point in the game there could still be a greater number of lesser small gun types than there is of 'home-made' stuff from the other two categories, it is not only reasonable within the setting but it also gives the player a gameplay choice with potencially plenty of prons and cons.

That's why the skills are merged to Firearms, to not have Big Guns or Energy Guns useless through 95% of the game (...)

Like i said, that may have happened in FO1/2 but that is by no means an absolute; It is completely up to the mod/game maker.

(...)and/or destroy the early image of a fucked up world without high tech stuff everywhere.

'Lower tier' or 'home-made' stuff here and there doesn't mean it has to be everywhere as you put it. As i mentioned above, this isn't an mmo, things doesn't have to be balanced out like; '10 small guns for 10 big guns for 10 ray guns'. Also, the FO universe is not our universe, what lies in the ruins, what gets scanvaged, what survives the destruction in the hands of survivors is not necesarily the same things that would in our reality if it were destroyed right now, remember, there were hovering servant robots, nuclear powered vehicles, etc, and the energy pistols were sold to people like any other handgun (they were not military hardware).

That's why it got merged, not because out of laziness. If I'd be lazy, I could have just let these skills ingame and let people play a broken game where a skill is completely useless through most of the game. Now, with changed STR Requirements and other stuff I added, they are balanced within the Firearms skill.

So, having realized and recognized what was broken with the game(s) (FO1/2) in regard to those skills you, instead of avoiding it with a bit of imagining and work, chose to cut, reduce, simplify, 'dumb-down' the skill system itself.

from adding low tier energy weapons for instance (things like home-made stuff, broken down/damaged stuff, old weaker protoypes, etc, etc, up to the bigger, better and shinnier ones). It just needs a bit more work, imagining and dedication that's all.

When imaging things where lasers and/or even plasma rays come out, my mind just screams "no!" - I consider it as something only the military uses, not something which can be easily scrapped together with some spare junk parts at home.

You're of course completely in your right to consider it as such, but you're nonetheless wrong, or better put 'at odds', with what the FO universe says.

I know what you mean with "dumbing down" stuff, but here I can't really see some dumbing down. As for melee/unarmed it is debatable and I agree on some of your points.

Of course there is dumbing down, there is a white, hot, blinding dumbing down light, you must wear dark shades all the time to not notice it.

The merge will stay.

::sigh::

but I'll do a bit tweaking around some new skills.

Fingers crossed and all that.

 

[Surf Solar]

Some small update.. After replaying Icewind Dale (not related to What Remains ;D ) I was impressed by the sounddesign in there and wanted similar stuff for my mod. So I completely removed all the music and sfx, and added "hotspots" to the maps, depending if player walks over hex xy, an fx from the maps pool is played, to make the enviroment appear more natural and dynamic. I've broken all music tracks down to dynamically playable patterns aswell, so now you have drones played where it's appropriate, synthesizer/ambient pads etc. The game also watches if it's night or day and plays different fx/music depending on other variables too (is town destroyed/not destroyed, etc). No more static sound on the maps.

 

[vanzizzle]

I like where this is going

I agree with you on merging the guns. It's no big deal. IMO. Just because you CAN do jack of all trades doesn't mean you have to.. Just tag useless skills.

Keep going man!

 

[Aqui]

Some small update.. After replaying Icewind Dale (not related to What Remains ;D ) I was impressed by the sounddesign in there and wanted similar stuff for my mod. So I completely removed all the music and sfx, and added "hotspots" to the maps, depending if player walks over hex xy, an fx from the maps pool is played, to make the enviroment appear more natural and dynamic. I've broken all music tracks down to dynamically playable patterns aswell, so now you have drones played where it's appropriate, synthesizer/ambient pads etc. The game also watches if it's night or day and plays different fx/music depending on other variables too (is town destroyed/not destroyed, etc). No more static sound on the maps.

Good luck in not making it fallout 3'ish, heh
Gotta hoard up a mighty large sound database for that so it doesn't sound like a record gone on the loop.

 

[Surf Solar]

Good luck in not making it fallout 3'ish, heh
Gotta hoard up a mighty large sound database for that so it doesn't sound like a record gone on the loop.

Not sure what you mean with fallout3'ish - no, there won't be any "epic-wardrum-violin-orchestra" songs. I am an huge fan of Mark Morgan, so this is a no - brainer - there are rather creepy/melancholic tunes in. As for the broken record - no - I am quite an audiophile, I'd hate that personally to have very few sfx - so don't worry.

On another track, I've told myself the question wether I should release the game in chapters, as I am pretty much done with the fist two, or I should release it all in one full game. On a game-makers side, I ofcourse can't wait till I can see your reactions to the game. On a gamers side of view, I'd want to play the game in one, finished and polished piece. What would you say? I'd be glad if you could post that here, or even better, here: http://whatremains.forum-aktiv.com/...o-be-released-into-chapters-or-as-a-full-game (I'd be glad to find a few new users there, not only for What Remains related talk, just to collect a few good souls for a nice talk )

As you can read there, I had another idea, to do some kind of "chapter 0" - working as a demo of some sort. It would only introduce you into the setting slow and steady, you'd play one or two predefined characters you can later meet in the maingame. This is not even so hard, it demands only a bit more time for development. I might really consider doing that, but I am not sure...

 

[Soda_fr]

I really dig the idea of a chapter 0!

So I would say chapter 0 then the whole game, but on the other hand don't forget to tease us from time to time

As I'm not a fonline player, I'm very curious to see what the fonline engine could bring to a solo game (the future of modding maybe?)

--
Aguirre

 

[Surf Solar]

I really dig the idea of a chapter 0!

So I would say chapter 0 then the whole game, but on the other hand don't forget to tease us from time to time

Yes, I think I'll go that route.

As I'm not a fonline player, I'm very curious to see what the fonline engine could bring to a solo game (the future of modding maybe?)

It's really easy and comfortable to use (it must, when even I, as a "technical noob" can get it ;D ) - but there's lots of stuff from the original engine missing (although mostly cosmetical, or audio stuff e.g missing sfx for certain occassions). Doesn't mean it can't get fixed though. Also, I kinda miss the pixelated look of FO1/2, FOnline looks a bit cleaner.


Anyway, I've created the first part of a characters story you will later find ingame. Also, some other minor stuff. You can read about it here: http://whatremains.forum-aktiv.com/t15-update-090511

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

As i see it (and i've seen it before), that's not really a valid argument, it's just merely an excuse to both simplify things for the mod or game makers (lazy, lazy ), and allow the player to use any weapon without any specialization sacrifice or penalty: a.k.a "dumbing down". And that's the only real reason to merge those skills.

Bullshit. Jagged Alliance 2 has only leadership, marksmanship, explosives, mechanics and first aid as trainable skills. Everything else is handled by the equivalent of traits. And I dare you to say JA2 is dumbed down compared to Fallout well in terms of combat anyway.

Likewise, all speech, barter, whatever could be merged into "Personality Skill"|

Actually that's a good idea, though I'd call it the communication skill, I mean how are you meant to be good at bartering if you are not very good at communicating? As you point out yourself energy weapons are so common place they make civilian models, they can't be that difficult to operate in that case. Certainly not so much that they would need a separate skill.

I can see the point x'il is making and I have to add that fighting with your fists (and feet for that matter) is significantly different than fighting with a knife (or a sword), so making it two different skills is perfectly valid in my book.

But you see unarmed combat is not a fancy martial art in Fallout (FO2 being the exception) and melee combat isn't fencing it's pugilism, it's brawling. In that sense holding a pistol is significantly different than holding a rifle but combined into one skill.

It becomes really gamey when you start splitting skills, you end up with situations like in D&D 3.5 where a Paladin can't use a tower shield or a bastard sword without the right feats. I mean is there really that big a difference between using a heavy shield and a tower shield or and bastard sword and a long/great sword. Or why does taking the exotic feat to use that bastard sword suddenly give you use of throwing stars.

All you really need in SPECIAL is, marksmanship, hand 2 hand, repair, explosives, science, communications, gambling and outdoorsmanship. You can always have adaptive formulas depending on the type of weapon equipped. Chance to hit = marksmanship x (PE + AG) + Z. Where Z equals either science, explosives, or repair etc depending on whether the character has an energy weapon, rocket launcher, regular gun, throwing weapon etc equipped.

The mod plays shortly after 2077, not in the far too long feature, some old military organisations are still around and there is no chance for the player to get this equipment, as (s)he is a "civilian", no chosen one, no vault dweller.

This is where I agree with x'il the closer to 2077 the more likely there are working energy weapons, powerful prewar military regular weapons and combat/power armour to be salvaged. And far less low powered antique replicas or makeshift weapons, since most of them were manufactured by the Gun Runners and Brotherhood post war and most vaults are still sealed shut.

As a result to the removal and merging of skills, ofcourse the maximum amount of skillpoints would be too high, only leading to Jack-of-all-Trades Characters. So the amount of skillpoints to raise your skill per level has been reduced. This will need some finetuning later to not make it too harsh, ofcourse.

The other way to go with this is to raise the maximum skill level and rebalance the formulas, for instance the skill limit is over three hundred in Fallout iirc so a small guns skill of one hundred is equivalent to thirty percent in FNV. Raising the maximum limit also makes it easier to balance if you decide to raise or not have a level cap.

 

[x'il]

Bullshit. Jagged Alliance 2 has only leadership, marksmanship, explosives, mechanics and first aid as trainable skills. Everything else is handled by the equivalent of traits. And I dare you to say JA2 is dumbed down compared to Fallout well in terms of combat anyway.

JA2's system is not Fallout's system, not to mention the fact that FO has next to zero tactics compared to JA2 and i seriously doubt this mod in question is going to rework the whole of FO to a more tactical one.

If you had understood what i was coming from with my posts on this subject you would see that what i was talking about is the fact that this is an FO mod, a mod of the old Fallouts (despite the new FOnline engine being used), so changing the skill system by reduction when it could be left well enough alone as it is and be actually improved by seizing the opportunity to make proper use of those neglected skills through a bit of careful work and imagination, is well, lazy, and given the reasons for merging the skills Surf Solar wrote above; 1) broken and/or unbalanced in the originals, to which i said we're not talking about the originals but of his mod and commented on ways to easily fix that without reduction, 2) story-related, to which i commented that it can also be easily explained in the case of low tier energy weapons by staying close to the source material, and you actually agree with me on this point, and 3) 'why can't i have a close quarters ninja without having to invest in two skills?' (or something like that)... well, given those reasons it's also dumbing down.

Actually that's a good idea, though I'd call it the communication skill, I mean how are you meant to be good at bartering if you are not very good at communicating?

Indeed, and it also would be good to merge that communications skill with all things knowledge-related; science, repair, doctor, etc, after all, they're all mental stuff right? it would be called "Mental (or Mind) Skill", as opposed to "Physical Skill" which would include, you know, all things physical. A 2-skill FO, how awesome is that? Simplification can explain everything away...

As you point out yourself energy weapons are so common place they make civilian models, they can't be that difficult to operate in that case. Certainly not so much that they would need a separate skill.

Energy weapons do not exist in RL, how would you know they don't have for instance a sideways kick or somesuch due to some gas discharges when fired that makes firing them accurately a different beast than firing a regular firearm? or the necesary requirements to keep them working? after all, FO skills do not acount for weapon maintenance...

Anyway, Surf Solar already stated his changes will stick, so

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

JA2's system is not Fallout's system, not to mention the fact that FO has next to zero tactics compared to JA2 and i seriously doubt this mod in question is going to rework the whole of FO to a more tactical one.

JA2 is though a great example of it's not the amount but what you do with them. The mod doesn't need to rework Fallout to be more tactical but with a reduced skill set it can concentrate on getting the best out of those skills used.

If you had understood what i was coming from with my posts on this subject you would see that what i was talking about is the fact that this is an FO mod, a mod of the old Fallouts (despite the new FOnline engine being used), so changing the skill system by reduction when it could be left well enough alone as it is and be actually improved by seizing the opportunity to make proper use of those neglected skills through a bit of careful work and imagination, is well, lazy,

You're expecting a bit much from a single person aren't you? I don't see Surf Solar's reasoning as lazy but realistic in not biting off more than they can chew.
Given that four professional development teams have failed to fully utilize every skill in SPECIAL, whether due to time constraints, budget or lack of vision. Or may SPECIAL is just broken and needs reworking from the ground up.

Indeed, and it also would be good to merge that communications skill with all things knowledge-related; science, repair, doctor, etc, after all, they're all mental stuff right? it would be called "Mental (or Mind) Skill", as opposed to "Physical Skill" which would include, you know, all things physical. A 2-skill FO, how awesome is that? Rolling Eyes Simplification can explain everything away...

Now you're being facetious barter and speech are closely related skills, speech and science aren't. If you are no good at speech "The ability to communicate in a practical and efficient manner." then how are you good at bartering? That's one of the main problems with the skills in SPECIAL, there are either not enough or too many, you'd expect a Doctor to be knowledgeable about first aid. But would someone trained with pistols be as good a shot with a rifle? You either need to split all the skills up, a pistol skill, an smg skill, bolt-action rifle, semi-automatic rifle, poker, craps, tracking, water conservation, camouflage etc. Or you merge them. Merging isn't automatically dumbing down just because you give the player less choices to spend skill points on doesn't mean that under the hood it still can't be complex. As I gave in my example you use science to maintain energy weapons but marksmanship to aim. This both gets rid of redundant skills and also boosts the usefulness of secondary skills.

 

[Surf Solar]

Since no one on the other board criticised it, I thought I ask here for some honest opinions.

I've always liked games where some random game hints, or NPC quotes, or even small descriptions of ingame places pop up on the loading screen.. So I did some too:

http://www.abload.de/img/test3tkcg.gif
http://www.abload.de/img/testem1e.gif
http://www.abload.de/img/test2ngzq.gif

Now, do you find this kind of thing bad, unfitting etc (as this wasn't in the original Fallouts...)?

 

[Lexx]

If it really needs to be there, I like this much more with background information about the game world. Else I feel like the game thinks I am stupid, because it tells me the most obvious shit all the time.

But the FOnline engine loading times are so super short, I doubt that it's worth to spend any worktime on that.