What the fuck happened to Fallout 4's weapons?

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by ThatZenoGuy, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    The amount of crap you accrue is staggering. I always had to throw away items and pipe guns.
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    It's mindboggling that they got rid of weapon condition when they introduced the "Rickety piece of trash tied together" weapon type, and then proceeded to have them everywhere on everyone.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    I have no hatred of tribals. Tribals make sense in areas like like the Four States Commonwealth area, the states of Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico, states that are traditionally mostly wilderness or desert, with few natural resources. But even in those areas we see civilized groups coming out of the ruins of Tuscon, Ogden, and Phoenix. Vegas is just this magical exception to the entire rest of the series where no civilization rose ever.... for reasons. And rioting happened in every other major city as well, and they still did something in 200 years time.

    That's exactly what I said.

    So headcanon?

    What you just said literally amounts to "well if you ignore the game's plot, and your character's motivations, you can avoid talking about Benny!" Which is literally the epitome of bad writing.

    What you just described is basic level locking. Making it to where its effectively impossible to beat an area without being X level first. Like MMORPGs do. You can still walk into higher level areas, and get higher level quests, but you wont be able to do them becuase its all level locked to require you to be X level and have Y gear score to beat it.

    There are actually several places where even normal hills have invisible walls.

    -What you do in Helios never get credited to you. The credit either goes to Fantastic, or no one really knows who activated the laser and killed the NCR... since no one was left alive to report you doing it.
    -Reporting what the Legion did in Nipton wouldn't make you famous. It was a minor job literally anyone could have done, and would have done if they were facing down Wolfman, and he told them to do it.
    -What you do in Primm never gets accredited to you either. Most of the actual praise either goes to the NCR, or just the town.
    -What happened to your whole "but you don't have to go after Benny!" spiel? So do you or don't you?

    What you just described in regards to Caesar's "test" is exactly everything wrong with New Vegas's writing. Caesar sends you on a task, but doesn't bother to send anyone he already trusts to watch you do it, and then just blindly takes your word on it, even though you offer zero proof that it got done. A similar problem happens when recruiting the Boomers. Each of the factions tell you to get the Boomers on your side, and then after you do, you just go up to them saying you did it, without any sort of proof you did. Literally, the only thing preventing you from just goofing off for three days, and coming back and saying you did it, is the fact the dialogue option doesn't trigger until you do.

    Actually, no. The only forces of the NCR stated to not be in the mojave at the time are the elite rangers, who are chasing ghosts down in Baja, and the heavy armored troops, that the brahmin barons are making guard thier ranches. All the normal forces of the NCR are in the mojave, and fighting the Legion on other parts of the Colorado river.

    The NCR isn't doing great back home. We are told they are suffering from water shortages, they have an imbalance of food production that is going ot lead to mass starvation in a decade unless they find a new source of food ASAP, the corruption of the NCR government is making them unable to get anything done, their trade routes aren't safe, they have high taxes that are choking the life out of many settlements, and thier constant habit of rolling over people and taking their land is causing civil unrest. Everything you said is literally fictitious, and the game spends long periods of itme telling you the NCR is in dire straights, even back home.

    Except the Legion doesn't care about these petty people, and are just going to enslave them all anyways. They don't need them to beat the NCR, at the start of the game, the Legion is poised to win the next battle at the dam even without those faction's help.

    A. What House should have done is the logical thing. Send out his Securotrons, meet with the people living in the Vegas area, and use his robots to help them fix up buildings to the point they are livable, and help them start a town. If they didn't have currency he wouldn't it, since nothing would have cost money at that point, since there was no one to buy from. Fuck, even The Institute at least tried to do this shit.
    B. His plan is failing because it relies on the plat chip, and the three families, and he lacks both the plat chip, and all of his three families have betrayed him.
    C. Because he was facing down the largest nation of the post-war world. And then threw out tons of people that could have helped support his cause simply becuase they wouldn't play dress up when it wasn't necessary for everyone to play dress up.
    D. BY ALL DEFINITIONS House has a weak hold on the city. House himself admits the ONLY reason he still have the city is because the NCR doesn't want to waste thetroops to take it when they still have The Legion to deal with. House himself admits the only reason why he is in charge is because the NCR can't be bothered at the moment to remove him. That is literally the weakest position one could have!
    E. Actually no. The White Gloves have already kidnapped a person, and are about to make him into dinner, before you even arrive. And The Omertas being that way is exactly why House is an idiot. He refuses to take the step needed to make sure that wouldn't happen in the first place.
    F. Which is really only a failure on Benny's fault. Victor, the sole securotron outside Vegas, should be piss easy to track. And the moment it went to Primm and placed the orders it should have alerted Benny that something was up. All of the people carrying the packages were basically unarmed, and unguarded, Benny could have hired a few more khans and taken all of them, and eventually worked out the importance of them without Yes Man.
    G. Uhh yes, everyone hates House. The people in Freeside, North Vegas, and Westside hate House for making them live in slums. The Omertas hate House for being an absent ruler. And a large portion of the White Gloves hate House's rules, which is why they have reverted to cannibalism. The only people who "like" House are the Chairmen, and even they would prefer Hoyus be gone so they could rle themselves.
    H. Literally everyone knows the Omertas are planning something because they are terrible at hiding it. that isn't due to House's great powers of prediction.
    I. Because House failed to do all the common sense things that would have given him a far better seating then he had currently, and doesn't have the ability to see it becuase he is so blinded by his own egotism.

    A. The Khans come from Vault 15, the same Vault as the people from Shady Sands, and lived in the NCR territory for years
    B. All the Super Mutants also come from the NCR's lands
    C. http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Goodsprings
    "Goodsprings is a small, barely active town that has been a mining community since the early days of Nevada. Most recently, it was settled under a grant from NCR to develop a low-risk mining environment near a reliable source of potable water."

    Revenge is not a good reason to go after Benny. Revenge is the singular worst, and most petty, motivation one can use for a narrative, and any author can tell you that petty revenge need to be tempered with a grater purpose for it to be good writing. Also, its not your job to get the package back. At the point in which Benny shot you and stole it, you, an unarmed courier of little skill, only has the duty of going back to the Mojave express, tell Nash what happened, and let him hire mercs to get it back.

    Because Black Mountain is swarming with super mutants. But thats regardless of the point. The point is no well designed game world has some an obviously created monster wall blocking your path. That you can get around it doesn't negate the fact it shouldn't be there.

    Except, again, you have the whole order of events backwards. You don't prove yourself to the Legion by doing the MQ. You do the MQ because you have already proven yourself to the Legion by doing basically nothing. Which is why the story falls apart.

    A. Except if the NCR loses the Mojave they will collapse due to a lack of resources since the Mojave is their only way out. That was the whole point of Caesar destroying New Canaan, and being glad the Divide was ruined. They were cutting off the NCR's trade routes so the NCR was boxed in and couldn't survive. If the NCR loses the Mojave, they will cease to be a faction.
    {Scoffs}No need to destroy the Bear, just cut its throat. You taught me that at the Divide - only need to cut off the supply line, the road, to watch something greater die.

    B. House is an idiot whose every plan has been self defeating, and has only gotten as far as he did due to sheer blind luck.
    C. Except you don't do what you do wth Vegas, yes man does. and its literally a police state enforced by heavily armed robots

    A. Except the BoS's whole goal is to purge feral ghouls, super mutants, and raiders, specifically so the people of the Wasteland can rebuild. They use their vertibirds to protect caravans, and make deals with settlements to exchange food for protection, and made Washington D.C. and the surrounding areas their own nation, and have been spreading out across the east coast and helping wasteland communities since then.
    B. The Institute turning people into super mutants is actually a classified program only known to the Director, the head of the SRB, and the scientists working on the project. The normal people of The Institute have no involvement in the FEV thing. Also, The Institute has done nothing to make sure life doesn't reform on the surface, what are you even talking about?
    C. And The Railroad removing The Institute means The Commonwealth can reorganize and make something new with itself since they would then no longer have the group keeping everyone apart to deal with.
    D. Preston Garvey =/= the rest of the Minutemen. And The Minutemen do have a pretty good chance out in the wastes. The Minutemen existed for over 100 years by the time the SS comes along, and in that time they killed off such large scores of raiders, super mutants, and feral ghouls, that people could actually make farms and small settlements out in the wasteland, when previously it had been impossible. The only reason places like The Slog, and the abernathy/Finch farms can exist is becuase of what The Minutemen have done over the years.

    The factions in New Vegas are blind idiots, heading on a course of self destruction by mindlessly following failed social systems of the past, making everything they are doing pointless. While the factions of the Commonwealth area actually get things done, and avoid the problems of past government by not idiotically trying to form another carbon copy of them when its only doomed to fail, ensuring they will survive far longer into the future.
  4. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Except that the reason there weren't both civilizations and tribals in The Mojave, is because the desert is relatively small, and they would have eventually came in to contact with one another.

    Giving the example of Utah, we know that there is a small patch of civilization in New Canaan, as well as a few shanty towns up north on the I80(Before they were destroyed by the 80s), but it's heavily suggested that most of Utah is filled with various Tribals, scattered around former national parks. This makes sense, as it is a huge state, and it's plausible for the tribes to have lived in relative peace.

    The Mojave on the other hand, is a tiny desert. You could easily trek the entire thing in a day or two. If they had a mish-mash of tribals and towns, it would make little sense for them not to interact with each other, and not to have began learning from the folks over in the town.
    A. Benny is a relatively minor subplot. He's just supposed to give you a slight push towards vegas. The whole thing with Benny isn't the game's plot, it's the game's macguffin device, and much like The Water Chip or the G.E.C.K, the game isn't about finding him, the game is about your adventures on your way to finding him.

    B. Benny doesn't have to be your character's motivation(It is your character after all, what motivates him/her is up to you), it's just there for those who can't think of there own and need a push to move the game forwards. You could be trying to finish the delivery, you could just want to get to Vegas, you could be interested in securing a future for the NCR, ect, so long as you get to New Vegas eventually, you will be recruited by the factions, and be given reason to go after Benny.
    There are high-level creatures in high-level areas?, SHOCKER!

    No actual shit. This is an inevitable fact of gaming. Either you make certain high-level areas, or you do level-scaling. Having level-locking is the lesser of two evils tbh.
    Water and food shortages? Where did you get that impression?

    It's funny, I got the exact opposite impression from the game. I thought that NCR had plentiful amounts of food, but the Cattle Barons and Farmer's Commitee had achieved a monopoly on it, and were using this to there advantage.
    Caesar explicitly mentions that he doesn't want his legionaries to see House's technology, because it may demoralize them. Did you miss that part of the dialogue?
    He heard a rumbling underground, and assumed it was the base blowing up.
    At the start of the game, it could go either way. Legion has the upper hand, but that doesn't mean victory is certain.

    And don't forget, the reason that the Legion is doing so well is because of all these plots. If they hadn't sent spies to Camp McCaran, or allied with The Khans, or blown up an entire NCR camp, or attempted to make trade deals with the VanGraffs, they may not be doing so well. It's not a matter of them getting involved in plots despite them being the winning team, it's a matter of them being the winning team because they engage in all these plots to destabilize the NCR military.

    Besides; if your fighting the most powerful nation in the world, you aren't going to stop fucking over there army just because you are winning. You are going to take every advantage you can get, to make the victory even more outstanding.
    But that's the point. Mr House isn't a super-powerful leader at the moment, which is why he's still being civil with the NCR. Once you get him the Platinum Chip, and release his Securitron Army, that's when he starts becoming powerful.
    The Three Families?

    And yeah, not every single inch of land is going to have been inhabited for hundreds of years. The Mojave, being a literal desert, seems to have not had a civilized population for long, so naturally it wouldn't have as much history as most other parts of the world. Why is this bad writing?
    Well, let's analyse this for a minute.

    The reason the Roman Empire fell wasn't because the culture or style of it was inherently flawed, it was because they had built an over-reliance on hiring mercenaries from Germanic Tribes to make up there military, and when these tribes turned on them they were unprepared. Given that every Legionary in the games tribal identity has already been erased, I think it's safe to assume Legion doesn't suffer that problem.

    The reason pre-war America fell was because both them and China were ready to fire nukes at each other. Given that neither the NCR, nor any of there opponents have a vast nuclear arsenal, the NCR doesn't suffer from that problem.

    Just because a few empires that happened to follow a certain ideology failed, doesn't mean that it's inevitably going to happen with every single instance of it.
    You mean like the Institute, who somehow hasn't found the Railroad's top secret base, with a super-hard to guess password, and makes lots of robots that are identical to humans for dumb reasons?

    Or the Railroad, who somehow have an incredibly limited knowledge of the Institute, despite having have freed several Synths that have literally been inside the Institute?

    Or the Minutemen, who literally rely on you to do everything for them, and have no proper forms of leadership, apart from "General" which given that he has no power is basically an honorary title.

    Or the Brotherhood, who are pretty much only on the East Coast in the first place so that Bethesda can rehash tropes?

    Or...Wait that's literally it. Those are the entire 4 factions in the game, who don't shoot everyone on sight.
    • [Like] [Like] x 5
  5. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    I don't think anyone's mentioned legendary weapons yet. Should they be in a Fallout game? I say no, at least in their current manifestation.

    There's nothing wrong with unique weapons. Or if you're going to have legendary weapons don't actually name them "Legendary". Make it the gun of an actual legend, like the Lone Wanderer's 10mm pistol or something, don't add some silly magical power to it like an Elder Scrolls game.

    I don't dislike all the weapons though, I like the hunting rifle with the Marksman's upgrades (though like many others I don't like how the reloading bolt is on the left-hand side instead of the right).
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  6. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I thought it was a good idea, but was poorly implemented.

    Making variants of standard weapons, which have unique effects, such as being better at crippling, or being good against certain creatures was a nice idea, but the fact that there are too many psuedo-magical effects(Dealing Fire Damage, setting enemies on fire while blocking, freezing enemies, dealing radiation damage, healing people, exploding, slowing down time, ect.) kinda ruins it.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  7. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    Which is part of the reason why I find it dumb there are tribal groups in the mojave in the first place. Tribals make sense in the vast wilderness/countryside, but large cities, especially ones that were untouched by the war, shouldn't have tribals.
    The difference is that hes a bad mcguffin. Fallout 1, 2, 3, and 4 all worked because they gave you the moral and ethical imperative of others needing your help, or else they would die.

    Finishing the delivery isn't you job at that point, your character has no reason to reach Vegas given what he/she was going there for is no longer a reason, and wanting to help build a better future for the NCR can't be your motivation either, because the Courier express a clear lack of knowledge about the NCR.
    I would disagree

    The problem with no having level scaling is three fold
    1. Having set loot just creates an environment were people are encouraged to go online, and look up the locations of "the best gear", and then sneak/exploit their way too it, which not only ruins any sort of difficulty in the game, but also makes further exploration pointless because you already have the best gear.
    2. When everything has a preset level, especially in large open world games like TES, where you can basically go to any major city easily, it forces the devs to make the majority of locations in-game be set to a very low level, since they have to account for any possible place you might go at level 1. This in turn makes the game like Morrowind, where like 80% of the dungeons were set for a level 1-10 character, and makes exploring places past those level ranges pointless, since loot will always be pre-set really low.
    3. The only way to solve problem 2 without having to resort to level scaling is by turning the world into basically an MMO, with a preset leveling path, which only ruins replayabiltiy since you are forced to play the same content in the same order, every time.

    Level scaling solves all these problems by
    1. Keeping the beast gear out of player's hands until they are leveled for it, making it far harder to cheese the game
    2. Makes it to where every dungeon always gives level appropriate loot, so you have some reason to explore every place, since you know you wont be stuck getting level 1-10 loot in most dungeons in the game like Morrowind
    3. It allows the devs to make the game world open, allowing for are more replayability, as you can tackle content in basically any order you want.

    There is literally no reason to not have level scaling.
    >Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean. Natural or man-made. Any kind, really. We neglected the dams or pumped all the water out a long time ago. Owens, Isabella, the San Luis. Drained the aquifers of everything they had. Just a lot of mud and dust now. It's a different feeling, watching the sun come up over the water. Takes some getting used to.
    >Not yet. But our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between production and consumption. Or, for a layman such as yourself - not enough food, too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation. In a decade or so.

    Its one of the main reasons the NCR are in the Mojave in the first place, they need the lake, because they need the water, and the NCR is so utterly desperate for a new source of food that they are letting people like Hildern send people off to get highly dangerous stuff like Vault technology that could possible kill them.
    No, its just a really dumb argument that amounts to nothing more then "well, we couldn't program a temporary follow for this quest" Only an idiot assumes, especially when it comes to something so major as House's trump card.
    No, the Legion has a very clear victory in hand at the start of the game. If the player does nothing to help the NCR as places like Camp Golf, and Camp Forlorn Hope, they both fall in the game endings. The Legion already nuked Searchlight, massacred Nipton, and set up a base at Cottonwood Cove, and due to Oliver placing all the rangers on the Dam, the Legion will easily clear out the NCR's elite troops. Not to mention the supply shortages at Bitter Springs means it cant defend itself, and Camp Guardian fell due to lakelurks. The soliders at Halios one also contantly mention how they are basically in a deathtrap due to the fence around the base. The NCR has no stable base anywhere in the Mojave except at Mccaren.

    Except they aren't. All the Legion's major victories have nothing to do with their alliances. the Khans and Fiends have been utterly minor tricks on the NCR's ass. Searhlight, Nipton, the Camp Forlorn Hope/Nelson situation, are all either purely Legion victories, or the result of the NCR's incompetence.
    But THAT is the point I am trying to make. He wouldn't BE in that kind of a situation in the first lace had he done the obviously helpful things for the last 100 years. House is only in the weak position he is in because he is and was too stupid to do the things that would have made him powerful over a century ago.
    Who have no origin or real backstory beyond that they removed around the Vegas area for years doing nothing of note. Because literally EVERYONE else in or near a major city achieved something. The Mojave is just this big magic ball of exceptions to the entire rest of the series.
    Have you played the Fallout games?(obviously sarcasm)

    The entire point of the introduction of every single game has been to point out human kinds endlessly self destructive nature. No civilization has ever lasted because civilization can't last because mankind is hellbent on fighting over petty things like resources and ideologies. They even hammer this fact in during Lonesome Road.
    -Actually they did find The Railroad's top secret base, and they killed nearly everyone in it. Did you forget Switchboard? The Railroad only moved to the base they have now in the last month or two. And by the time you reach the part of the main quest where you attack them, The Institute has already figured out where it is, and were planning to attack it.
    -You are explicitly told by several synths including Nick Valentine, Glory, DiMA, H2-22, and others, that any synth who exists The Institute automatically has basically all their knowledge of The Institute's layout/location/operations wiped from their minds as part of a failsafe to keep The Institute safe. Even Glory and H2 only remember vague things about spending most of their time working in backrooms.
    -I see the Minutemen constantly fighting super mutants, Gunners, rouge robots, and others as part of random encounters, as well as Minutemen patrols walking between settlements and stuff. They do stuff all the time without you.
    -Actually the BoS are on the east coast to collect technology, and fight super mutants. You know, several of the same reasons they sent a large contingent of BoS soliders into the Midwest as part of Tactics?
  8. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    Legendary weapons are Borderlands tier garbage.

    Some of the effects are ok, but they should have been made as unique weapons or something. Not a randomized legendary system.

    Though I will say Bethesda got better with unique weapons in Far Harbor compared to the base game.
  9. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Let's not forget it's a big commercial city, with likely very little farmable land. Naturally the Tribals are going to move out of the city so that they can find a source of food as soon as possible.
    "My dad escaped from the Vault. I'm going to go find him and make sure he's ok, despite the fact that everyone I come across is suggesting that he's a capable guy, and there's no reason to suggest he even needs my help."
    -Moral and ethical imperative of others needing your help
    Your character has no reason to visit a major tourist location, with various casinos.
    No you express a clear lack of knowledge about the NCR.

    It's you whose choosing to ask those questions, not the Courier. The Courier could very well know everything about the NCR if you chose dialogue options which suggest he did, or if you didn't ask questions about it.

    Optional dialogue options do not dictate what kind of knowledge your character does/doesn't have.
    A. If people want to go online and look up "Best Gear" then that's entirely there choice, but most people choose not to do that sort of thing, for the sake of immersion.

    For the majority of people, it will just mean that they are constantly on the lookout for good loot, and will be able to have the satisfaction of getting great stuff.

    B. Having set loot makes the world seem more real, because everything is placed logically and consistently. With leveled-loot systems, 9/10
    Or alternatively, they could have just lots of different dungeons with different challenge levels scattered all over the place. Like naturally it's not going to be equally easy to break in to different place, it makes sense that different dungeons would have different level monsters, because naturally not all monsters are going to be perfectly aligned to your level.
    1. Again, if people want to cheese the game, that's there choice, if people want to play the game properly, and not cheatingly find out the locations of all the good items, that's there choice too. Handplaced loot means that players who play the game genuinely can be surprised with the loot they get, and will have motive to actually look for loot, rather than just assuming everything's going to be average for there level. I don't see why we should drag down players who genuinely want the experience of adventuring, and coming across cool loot, for the sake of stopping a few people from abusing the dev's trust.

    2. Again, make different dungeons have different challenge ratings. If they made a huge variety of dungeons for both low-level and high-level players, it wouldn't feel like you have to go down one specific path, as there'd be tons of stuff to explore either way.

    3. It's not impossible to tackle late-game content. If your skilled, and know how the game works, you can easily do it. And besides, doesn't it make sense that it will be much harder for someone inexperienced to fight monsters than someone whose been in the wasteland for a while?
    Neither of the examples you gave imply that there is a current shortage, they simply imply that one is going to come soon.

    At the moment, the NCR has enough resources to get by from what I can tell. It doesn't sound like a nation with mass-thirst and starvation, however it will possibly go downhill in future.
    If someone went to blow up a base, and you heard a rumbling and the ground shaking, wouldn't that kind of imply that they had blown up the base?
    Why wouldn't they send spies to infiltrate the NCR, or blow up generators, or make alliances though?

    You were complaining about them being responsible for all this harm that came to the NCR, but doesn't it make sense in an open-war to take every advantage you can get, even if you know your going to win?
    They were being tribals, having there own communities, traveling the wastes before House adopted them.
    Fallout 3? Nobody in the Capital Wasteland achieved anything

    Fallout 4?, There's no signs of rebuilding there, as it's still a raider hell-hole.
    But how could the NCR or Legion know that every civilization is bound to collapse in this universe?

    Like they can't, they have no reason to assume that there rebuilding efforts will go badly.
    So, the Railroad has been in that base for an entire month and the Institute still hasn't found it?

    Given that there is a trail leading right to them, and the Password is quite likely the first thing you'd guess, there is no logical reason why it took that long.

    And "Planning to attack"?, The Railroad is already weakened. They could literally send half a dozen Coursers or Gen 1/2 synths in, and be done with it. Why are they waiting for you to kill the Railroad for them?
    But if the Minutemen can handle all those jobs on there own, why are you constantly sent on mook work. And why isn't the General ordering them to go help settlements?
    Like in tactics?, That makes it ok then. It's not like pretty much everyone dismissed tactics, claiming it wasn't a real Fallout game the moment it came out.

    And in Tactics it made sense, as the Brotherhood had mass-conscripted tribes to be part of there force, which explained there huge numbers. In 3 and 4, the Brotherhood seem to have huge armies supposing that they could barely fill a bunker a few decades ago. There is no explanation as to how they got the numbers to even send that many people to the East Coast, yet alone to explain how they kept them despite almost all of them defecting to the Outcasts.

    By the way, how did Arthur Maxson ever get the approval of the West Coast BOS when he pretty much goes against everything the Brotherhood was originally about?
  10. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    And yet we heard in New Vegas that the tribals remained in the city, wandering around its ruins and occasionally squatting in some building or another as a temporary base. In fact, we hear from people like Raul, as well as see in games like Fo3, NV, and 4, most people moved INTO the big cities following the war, as big cities were the only places with a lot of supplies, as most small towns in America aren't self sufficient, and wouldn't have had resources for more then a few weeks.

    Besides the fact your father left mysteriously and without any warning, suggesting some kind of danger, and no one knows where he is, and the few places people thinks he is are overrun by super mutants and other horrors.

    Your character does not have a reason to travel through over 100 miles of war torn desert wasteland, full of giant monsters, and a massive slaver army, just to gamble a few caps. Especially when the main road is blocked and overrun by deathclaws on one side, and crazy super mutants on the other. Only the insane are that dedicated.

    Optional dialogue choices DO dictate what your character does/doesn't know, that is the whole point in having them.

    "Most people" would imply that "most people" are actually hardcore RPers who care about hardcore RPing. They are not. Most people play RPGs to get the best gear ASAP, so they can plow through shit(which is dumb as fuck)

    Except you can easily set specific leveled lists for loot containers that dictate what kinds of things do/don't appear, thus keeping it realistic.

    Every RPG tries to have dungeons of all levels all over the place. It just never works out because the player can go so many directions at the start of the game the devs have to make low level content all over the place for them to do things. At the same time, level scaled games like Skyrim and Fallout 4 can have set dungeon minimums and maximums, keeping early game areas easier, and later game areas harder, regardless of level, while also leveling things within that range so its far more worthwhile to explore them at every level. Solving all the problems.

    Because no one is being dragged down in this regard, unless your definition of "cool loot" only includes end game weapons/armor that make the game piss easy for low level players.

    See the paragraph above the previous one for dungeons

    Sure, OFC it makes sense some areas would be harder, but, again, see above. Level scaling like in Skyrim and Fo4 still allows for that, while also allowing far greater replayability since you can go more places at game start, and have more places be end game worthy once you reach end game. I get the feeling that you seem to think level scaling can only be like it was in Oblivion, where literally everything everywhere was leveled with you, and have somehow missed Skyrim and Fo4 not being like that.

    If its such a big deal that the NCR is fighting a massively unpopular war due to a need for resources, its a pretty big deal.

    If I sent someone to blow up the base of a guy who I know they had made contact with previously, I would want to make sure they were actually working for me, and not serving as a double agent, and just lying about doing what I told them to do. Caesar fails to take even the most basic of countermeasures against spies, and suffers for it.

    Because the Legion has no reason to make alliances with groups they not only hate, and have every intention of enslaving, but have already shown they don't need the help of to easily beat the NCR. The Legion is really getting nothing out of it. They are just doing it FOR LE EVIL MASTERPLAN!

    Except they didn't have communities, they were wandering nomad with no permanent homes, no mines, no farming, no calendars, no nothing.

    In Fallout 3 they had established Megaton(100+), Rivet City(38), Underworld(50+), Tenpenny Tower, and a number of smaller communities, most of which have existed for decades, and in some cases over a century. Organized religion. A system of trade routes not only going over 100 miles in a circular loop across the Capital Wasteland, but also all up and down the east coast from The Commonwealth to the Broken Banks. Advanced sciences in the form of hydroponics, mass water purification on levels not even the NCR seems to be able to achieve, and advancements in portable fusion power. The Commonwealth had achieved all that + more by the time Fallout 4 begins. However, before the arrival of the NCR, the people of Vegas hadn't even achieved 1/10 of that.

    How would the NCR and Legion know civilization was doomed to collapse? They have pre-war history books, and they literally live in a world completely changed by the failures of pre-war civilization. As House says "If you want to see the fate of democracies, look out the windows."

    The Institute knew where the base was the whole time. As Justin Ayo tells you after Father dies, he hopes you will be more active in the escaped synth problem, as Father didn't see it as much of a concern. The Institute doesn't really care about the Railroad. They are a minor pest, that has barely managed to free but a handful of synths in decades they have been active, and have been easily quashed by The Institute whenever The Institute bothers to do something about them. The Railroad can't physically harm The Institute in any real way, and The Institute has no desire to wipe the surface clean of life or anything. It's not really an issue for them. Father only takes them out now because of how bold they have very recently been getting, and because he wants to use it as a means to prop you up as a worthy leader, the same reason why he wants you to participate in The Battle of Bunker Hill, and Mass Fusion missions. He's not doing it because the Railroad is an actual threat, he's doing it to make you look good.

    Because the Minutemen are handling jobs like yours all the time. That is the whole point of those random encounters where you see them fighting stuff, and the patrols you see. The Minutemen are fighting stuff, and defending towns, you're just doing it also.

    Actually, Tactics has had a pretty large fanbase that has supported it since it came out. Its nowhere near this universal and one sided hatred of it you seem to think it is. Only Brotherhood of Steel was that hated.

    It's explicitly stated in both Fallout 3 and 4 that Lyons and Maxson have been recruiting wastelanders for fill their ranks. Like, did you miss all the people in Fallout 3 and 4 who talked about recruiting, or being recruits? Danse, Haylen, Rhys, Lucia, and Clarke, in Fallout 4 are all recruits from the outside. Lyons orignal force was probably less then 100 people, and even by the time of Fallout 4, Maxson's BoS is only just shy of 500 men total(that we have actual serial numbers for). Lyons forces in Fallout 3 were far smaller then that. Maybe 100-150 total, at max.

    The only thing saying Arthur Maxson got approval of the west coast elders is an obvious propaganda fluff piece written by Proctor Quinlan. Nothing suggests its actually true.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  11. Beeooow


    Nov 8, 2016
    of violently co-opting the NCR and building a civilization to stand the test of time, unlike the old world.
    Ignore any philosophical basis or justification, they're clearly just le evil boogeyman xD.
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  12. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    Yeah, he sure is building a civilization to stand the test of time, by modeling it after one of the most spectacularly failed empires on the pre-war world.

    Nice going Caesar.
  13. Beeooow


    Nov 8, 2016
    You really need to actually pay attention to his Future Plans speech.

    This is coming from someone who's a staunch believer that the Legion would be destroyed by the NCR eventually, even if they took over the Mojave.
  14. Dunno conquering or controlling most of their known world and prevailing as a culture for almost 15 centuries is pretty neat for a civilization
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  15. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    And yet war, war never changes.

    I have, its popcorn worthy level of hilarious misrepresentation of history and the human condition.
  16. Beeooow


    Nov 8, 2016
    I think this is one of the few things I agree with you on. I think.

    RNG guns are a shit meme. The move to borderlands-ify Fallout was stupid and a further casualization of the series by Bethesda.

    You'd think someone in favor of Fallout 4 would support the quote being relevant.

    Besides, that doesn't invalidate all that conquest progress. Savage and backwards it may be, but still a form of progress in the eyes of politics. He is uniting the weak under his monopoly of violence, and that's statebuilding in a nutshell. (note I said statebuildng specifically)

    I also find Caesar's arguments flawed, but this means that the Legion, founded under Caesar has a purpose: fulfilling his will, which is to achieve his lasting utopia via violence.
    This means that they will ruthlessly smash all opposition to either eradicate or absorb outsiders, until Caesar calls for a switch in priorities.

    Of course, if/when Caesar dies (probably via tumor) his master plan will go to shit and the Legion truly will be a mindless beast. From what I can tell, the people best set up to take power are nothing better than warlords without his guidance.

    But up until then, the Legion, in action, is a violent tool of yet another powerful man with ambition, not an organization made for the intent of evil.
    They are highly flawed, and set to fail without outside help, but the administration has a plan beyond 'kill the profligates'.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  17. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    Many of the legendary effects could have easily been implemented as mods, and many of them are mods for some weapons.

    Like the junk jet has an actual weapon mod that ignites/electrifies items passing out of it. It would have made more sense to give guns that kind of mod also, instead of a legendary effect.

    I can understand legendary effects being made because they didn't have time or resources to make that many mods for every kind of weapon, and I don't really mind those too much. But the other ones that are basically just pure magic need to go.

    Though I would disagree that the legendary system is any form of casualization.
    It kind of does though.

    Caesar formed the Legion by destroying the individual cultures of the tribes he conquered, but when he dies, the Legion is just going to reboil down into that same sort of tribal groups, except each one will now be lead by one of former commanders of The Legion. All of his "progress" will be completely reset because his system doesn't really improve anything, all it does is just make one larger tribe, with better weapons.

    The NCR, when it collapses, unless it suffers like nuclear Armageddon, will still maintain most of its progress in its individual cities.
    The problem is that the plan is stupid, unattainable, and, arguably, less realistic then House's already unrealistic goals. It doesn't help that Caesar proves himself a massive hypocrite.

    He talks a big game, but his complete unwillingness to follow his own system proves he cares little about actually bettering anything. He's just a violent manchild with delusions of grandeur, hiding being pseudo-intellctualist rhetoric, to make himself seem more noble then he actually is.
  18. DR_LaZer

    DR_LaZer Donacdum

    Jul 7, 2016
    It's your characters motivations if you want them to be! You god damn idiot! You don't have to ask about Benny if that's not YOUR characters motivations! You WILL eventually encounter Benny because he is the leader of one of the Three Families, and House will even ask you too go kill him. But you never have to actively go after Benny running around asking "Where the fuck did he go!?"

    So, what you want is to be able to go everyfuckin'where and do everyfuckin'thing instantly right off the bat without any challenge. Just right off the start you wanna be able to kill all the deathclaws? Even though logically speaking you'd need some high power weaponry and armor to even scratch them, but NAW! Let's just be able to roam around the wasteland killing everything to our hearts content! Because that's good game design!

    First off, yes, you do. Caesar talks of lights from the sky killing tons of NCR troops when you first meet him and he recaps what you've done so far. And I'm fairly sure Fantastic puts in a good word for you if you help him.

    Secondly, still a job that helps The Legion.

    Thirdly, Errr.... no. I'm Pretty sure you still get NCR fame for letting in the NCR Sheriff and helping remove the powder gangers.

    Finally, Jesus fuck. NO! You don't HAVE to go after Benny. Not on a personal crusade towards him. But it IS inevitable that you will encounter him because he is the leader of one of the Three families in the most popular city in the region. And the leader of that City when he requests you to come and see him will even ask you to go and kill him.

    Well, like the other person mentioned, Caesar explains that he don't want his people seeing the stuff inside for fear of demoralizing them. But also, it's a closed off Bunker with the simple task of "blow it up" And you offer great proof. A massive rumbling from under the earth. What kinda fuckin' proof would you bring back? A blown up robot?

    And whaddya want, a written contract stating they'll help [insert faction here] at the Battle of Hoover Dam? At this point for a lot of the factions you've proven yourself in some way. With Caesar it's killing House and blowing up the Bunker, and with House it's finally giving him the MK 2 Securitrons and killing Benny. Does every action you do for everyone away from screen need a contract telling them that you did it?

    Nooooooooooooooooo. The NCR is stretched thin in terms of the Mojave. It's the frontier of their already owned land and is still entirely new to them. Sure, specific kinds of troops are there, yes. But, in terms of numbers there's not a lot of them there. They make a point of this in almost every location. And that's the main reason why it's so hard for them to get anything done, they're trying to do to much with to little resources.

    Wait, what? How are they starving and having water shortages back home? Where was this said? How are they not getting anything done at all? I thought that they were actually just over extending their army for massive land grabbing?! Do you mean the trade routes to the Mojave and back home? Other than that, I can't see how it wouldn't be safe back home. I can see a lot of this happening in the Mojave, but not home. Where are you getting all this information?!

    Actually, they kinda do. Not only because the NCR is the thing actively keeping Caesar from having his Rome, but at this point it's kinda like an honor thing where they HAVE to kill the NCR for even thinking of opposing The Legion. Granted, in the grand scheme of things they will fail. But they're still gonna try their dammedest.

    First of all, House didn't need to build a fuckin' town. Why would he do that? How does that benefit him and his plans?

    Secondly, the Three Familys have not fucking betrayed him, you dummy. The White Gloves just eat people. Which isn't a direct attack on House himself. And as long as they keep it to themselves it won't be a problem to him. The only Chairmen that went against House was Benny, and he was taken care of. And House knew from the start that The Omerta's would go against him, but he still used them to benefit him. I may be wrong on this quote, but I recently played through the House quest line in new vegas, and he said something like this: "It makes no difference whether or not the Omerta's are loyal to me. I still profit from them." That's not exact, but gimme a break. I heard it at like five in the morning. I still got the basic gist of it.

    Also, House was working on getting the platinum chip! He used the Three Families to put off the NCR and still get Vegas running so he could fund his search for the chip. Then, once he gets it his plans go into action.

    Thirdly, for Vegas to work it required the Co-operation of everyone to some degree. The Khans are not fit for Vegas. The Kings kinda were, but they still wouldn't follow the boss. If House just let every degenerative tribal into a position of power in Vegas, it would all crumble before him.

    Yes, I'm aware that at the start of the game House has a weak hold against the NCR. But for everyone else he still has a strong hold. And he's working on that NCR problem. That's where his wild card comes in, you. Granted, you could just not follow with his plans and completely ruin everything. Guess he just over estimated you.

    Well, last I checked Benny doesn't have a tag on every single Securitron out there, so it's quite easy to believe one would slip through his look and by the time Benny knew about it, the platinum chip would be practically in Mr. Houses hands.

    Now, the people outside in the slums of Vegas do not matter. Not like they can do much. House already knows about and is dealing with the Omertas. The White Gloves do not pose a threat to House, and only Benny goes against House.

    And I don't see how trying to rebuild a failing and just barely holding on town would've given him better power than being the sole overboss of what is quite possibly the greatest tourist location in the world at the moment , with a securitron army and control of a giant power source.

    Don't see why that negates the Khans being apart of Vegas history.

    Don't see why that Negates Super Mutants and nightkin from being apart of Vegas history.

    And OK, just goodsprings is NCR settled....

    Well, that may be what YOUR Courier did, but mine was filled with revenge and a strong need to chase down after Benny to finally make my delivery. It's almost like the game gives you the freedom to make up your own reasoning for why you want to go after Benny. Weird, innit?

    Not the front of it, where I said to go. It's simple, just don't go into the area infested with Deathclaws. You can head straight towards Vegas if you avoid the deadly monsters.

    No! Listen for just one second. FIRST you do a buncha small shit for said faction. Then, that prompts them to give you a simple task to do. Said small task is a proof of your loyalty. Then you do the thing only YOU can do, then you've proven yourself trustworthy!

    Whaaaaaaat the fuck are you talking about? Just from reading that one quote, it seems like it's the reverse. That cutting off their supply line from Home you'll watch the Mojave NCR die. Even then, that makes no fucking sense. The NCR in the Mojave can barely support itself there, how is it supporting the entirety of California? That makes absolutely no sense. Are you high or something? That in no way will happen. If the NCR looses the Mojave, then they'll be pushed back to California and then the Legion will face the true power of the bear. How is The Mojave in any way vital for THE ENTIRE NCR's survival?!

    House is a genius who plans very far ahead and rides the line in terms of taking calculated risks, and most of the time when his plans fail it's because either The Courier actively goes against him, or there's a variable that he never knew about. And has gotten this far due to his masterful planning and trickery.

    No friend, you have it backwards. The factions in 4 are a buncha blind idiots, only thinking in the short now without any true plans for the future. Or if they do have plans for the future it's to just serve their own selfish needs without helping the rest of the wasteland. Which makes everything they do pointless. While in Vegas the NCR, while over extending, is still extremely long lasting due to how interchangable and adaptable they are. Caesar already explained The Legion for me. House has plans of sending society forward far into the future tech wise to the point of having people in space in 50 years. And just because they base their structures off of older ways doesn't mean they're instantly destined to fail, that's closed minded and stupid.

    And I think I'm done here. I don't know if I wanna do another. Takes me like, fucking two hours to make these. I could be playing New Vegas right now.
    • [Like] [Like] x 5
  19. Beeooow


    Nov 8, 2016
    Highly flawed, prone to failure, and ultimately useless indeed. You're preaching to the choir on that point with me.

    But his utopia could in theory work. Maybe. He is a dictator after all, one that managed to unite all the tribes.
    It likely wouldn't be a utopia in any sense of the world, but he does have the sheer loyalty to keep it together.

    Returning to the original point of "el evil master plan", the point of bringing all this up is that the Legion isn't mindlessly killing yet.
    Unless the courier steps in and cures Caesar of that brain cancer (if I recall), it will become mindless.
    Stuck to following an old decree because he purposefully didn't teach them any better.

    The Legion throughout the game is just fighting a war as any psuedo-roman post-apocalypse army would. unfairly, to break morale, and without mercy.
    That's a couple leagues above just killing for the sake of being monstrous, as they have a goal however achievable it may be.
    I agree with Caesar being a butt, however he does have a utopian plan, however ignoble it is in practice and practicality.

    You're one of those people who thinks everyone except for them is an idiot, aren't you? Your very language does not paint a good picture of you, you do realize?

    Also, implying the NCR will collapse
  20. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2016
    Not really. As Marcus says
    "Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the Legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he's gone, it'll crumble. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealousy - will see to it."

    Caesar's entire utopian future could only exist if the people in it cared about his ideals, but they don't. It doesn't matter what Caesar does, because Caesar failed from the get go since he built his nation on a cult of personality, rather then a cult of ideals, meaning he has no one to carry on his legacy after he dies. Even if he does capture Vegas like he wants, no on in the Legion can carry it on as he wants, since no one has been trained on what he wants.

    This is what makes The Legion different from the BoS, and is why the BoS has survived longer then any post-war Institution. The BoS ARE a cult of ideology. Not that they don't revere Maxson and his line, but they are about following the ideals of Maxson.

    What is Nipton where they made a deal with the mayor to capture some NCR soldiers, then for no real reason turned around and betrayed the mayor and the town as well, killing them really only for shits and giggles.

    No? And I don't see how.

    Implying that it wont when everything in New Vegas and Lonesome Road suggests it will.

    The NCR is running out of water, about to run out of food, their entire government is corrupt from the top to the bottom, the citizens are buckling under heavy taxes, raiders are still a problem in some areas, there is civil unrest from both the NCR taking anything they want, and from wasting tons of lives on what most see as a pointless war. On top of all this, the Legion has destroyed all of their trade routes east except the Long 15, and the White Legs have burned all the bridges on the Long 15 leading into Arizona and Utah, meaning they can't even go much further on that then they are now, and the Mojave obviously can't provide all the NCR needs, and the only thing east of the mojave is the rather barren lands of the Legion.

    There is no out for the NCR.