Why fallout 3 is different then Fallout 1 and 2

Crni Vuk - I am confused on one of your arguments AGP replaced PCI, not the other way around, and if your talking about the modern PCI-Express, the main advantage of PCI-Express is the exact opposite of what you where trying to make the point, PCI-express was designed to allow PCs to use a single card for many uses, such as Internet/sound/Video combo cards. as it is a serial system and not a bus system (or in laymans terms, all the devices can communicate with the computer at the same time, while only one on a Bus system can communicate with a computer, and allows much more bandwidth of information interchange, USB, Firewire, and other current technologies use this for the same reasons.


Diablo II has been a highly successful but that is the exception, not the norm, and Diablo II is not exactly a "New" game, as it was released in 2000. the overhead view is still used in the "4x" games like the Command and Conquer games, I do hope Diablo III does become a major hit, as it would be wonderful to see more games of the type, however, the market for top view games is limited, the good games will be rewarded, but a company will not always make good games, and a flawed overhead view game will kill a company.

Also, Bilzard money cow is not Diablo, it is WoW.
 
It's nice that you have chosen to ignore 2 last posts.

Let's talk about such great hits that grabbed the wider market by the collar, like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, FoPoS and X-Com: Enforcer, ok?
 
drgong said:
...Crni Vuk - I am confused on one of your arguments AGP replaced PCI, not the other way around, and if your talking about the modern PCI-Express, the main advantage of PCI-Express is the exact opposite of what you where trying to make the point, PCI-express was designed to allow PCs to use a single card for many uses, such as Internet/sound/Video combo cards...
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I dont know how big your knowledge is about AGP and PCI express. And I was talking about the modern interface. Of course one of the bigest selling points was that you acn use 2 graphic cards of the same type with cross-fire and SLI for example have been for some time major selling points for both ATI and Nvidia simply cause you could use 2 cards with it. The way of how informations are handled by PCIe is faster compared to AGP (acording to Wikipedia) but actualy it would be as well no issue to make high end graphic cards with the newest technology of AGP as well with almost the same power like the newest PCIe cards if I remember correctly it had something to do with how the interfaces handle compression of data/informations. The main reason for PCIe was that you could use easier 2 cards of the same type compared to AGP. If you dont believe me you might should just search about SLI and cross-fire.

drgong said:
Diablo II has been a highly successful but that is the exception, not the norm, and Diablo II is not exactly a "New" game, as it was released in 2000. the overhead view is still used in the "4x" games like the Command and Conquer games, I do hope Diablo III does become a major hit, as it would be wonderful to see more games of the type, however, the market for top view games is limited, the good games will be rewarded, but a company will not always make good games, and a flawed overhead view game will kill a company.

Also, Bilzard money cow is not Diablo, it is WoW.
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You seem to be overly focuse on "top down view" but dont forget that quite a lot of "first person" projects have failed in the long time of gaming buisness as well. Prey for example. Daikatana. And many other games. First Person perspectives dont make inherently "better" games. Its just easier to sell as quality (even if it isnt) and visuals with it. It goes partialy hand in hand with the hardware buisness that want to of course sell their equipment in some way. Its not random that developers get from hardware manufactures sometimes "gifts" you know particularly when the game they make (for example when its popular) is designed with a particular hardware in mind. What do you think how much it costs NVIDA to have their logo appear in some games when you start it ? Developers and publishers of course will push projects that are easy to realise (relatievly spoken) and promise the highest outcome. Which have been for quite some timer shooters with big visuals inside. At the moment one can see that this is shifting slowly as well with the big success of games like Warhammer for example.


Diablo II has been a highly successful but that is the exception, not the norm,

Of course it was an exception. So are all games with "great" success that sell millions of units. Even games from Bethesda like Oblivion which has no good quality but still sells like hotcakes for the simple fact that you dont have much competition in their field. They somehow managed to let people believe that their game is somehow uniquie (as a how people say? First-person-sand-box-rpg or something?). They are somewhat at the moment the only people which make first person RPGs, cause letz be honest their Third Person view simply sucks. They really have hit the best of the best. If people would call it a straight "shooter" you always can defend it that its meant as "RPG" if people call it a bad RPG cause of its bad story you can always defend it with that its "meant as Sand Box experience". Dunno they really have awesome marketing that for sure.

Success in the range of WoW or Diablo is usualy never the "norm". But it has not so much to do with the view. It depends what kidn of story you have and how you want to tell this story and what experience you want. For some kind of games Top Down view is the best while for others first person. I would not think Counter Strike would ever have worked with Third Person or BIrds view and I doubt Fallout 1 would have been the same experience as straight shooter. People choose the design for a reason (and that can be read by quotes from the developers which made Fallout 1).

A company which decide's to make a top down game can still achieve a lot of success. Supreme Commander 2 is on its way and before Supreme Commander they also made Total Anihilation so they are already for a pretty long time in the buisness with this kind of gameplay. Why should it now suddenly start to be a failure if they dont change their game in a completely different direction. It seems at least for them this kind of view has been always a success.

The real reason for a game to not have success are not its view. It is usualy cause its really a "shit" game (see Titan Quest where the devs blamed it on "pirates" then a boring story and gameplay). Vampire was a neat game as most think first person or not but it was not possible to play it cause of bugs. Sölder Secret Wars same thing. Great ideas. Limitless bugs. Last days of Gaya. Great ideas. To many bugs and stupid uneven gameplay. Now why should anyone buy such games regardless in which view they are made when they have serious flaws that have nothing to do with the view at all First person, Top down, Third Person. Shit games are shit games.
 
sure there has been first person shooters that have failed, it is the nature of any type of creative venture.

What birdeye-view/isometric view game has sold more then say, 300k units in the last five years that was not a "4x" game like command and conquer? Even Neverwinter nights has dropped that concept with NWN 2. I am sure that there is one or two that have sold more then 300k units (which really isn't a hit at all. as that is only 6 million to the publisher assuming sale prices at 40 USD. games cost 1-20 million USD to make, so even if it is on the low end (5 million) you looking at selling 300k units to break even.

Now, we may see a number of these types of games coming out in the next few years if Blizzard licences out the Diablo III graphics core.

For example, lets say you setting up a game company, and you have five million USD to create a game, even a game that sells decently well for a overhead RPG (Arcanum) is not going to break even unless you have a good deal with the distributor, but if you make a decent FPS, even if you sell half of what you would sell on the PC (175 PC units) if you can sell another 175k units on the Xbox, and 175k units on the playstation 3, you have earned your money back, and made some profits to pay your investors, or invest in new games.

Lets say you make a great game that sells 3 million units, a top down RPG you limit your income, but a FPS with equal sales (and really, the sales are more in the console market then the PC market) you sell another 6 million units, which let your company survive a number of misses.

However, if you make a crappy game that sells 75k units, no matter what you have, its going to kill your bottom line.

If we want to see more of these games, we would need a for-licence engine that would allow the creative types to make these games, however the biggest challenge is that there is no games being made in this market, so no one is going to be making a spec-engine (outside of open source perhaps), but Diablo III might give a nice boost to the concept of top-down view RPGs.

The game industry is like the movie industry, and yes, bad games with good graphics do sell like the latest hollywood dreck, however unlike the move business, there is not a readily apparent "independent" market that is strong enough to raise cash for, and (so far) building games for art sake (like some making movies for art sake) is not as accepted so far.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Of course it was an exception. So are all games with "great" success that sell millions of units. Even games from Bethesda like Oblivion which has no good quality but still sells like hotcakes for the simple fact that you dont have much competition in their field. They somehow managed to let people believe that their game is somehow uniquie (as a how people say? First-person-sand-box-rpg or something?). They are somewhat at the moment the only people which make first person RPGs, cause letz be honest their Third Person view simply sucks. They really have hit the best of the best. If people would call it a straight "shooter" you always can defend it that its meant as "RPG" if people call it a bad RPG cause of its bad story you can always defend it with that its "meant as Sand Box experience". Dunno they really have awesome marketing that for sure.
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One game that combines first and third views marvelous is Mass Effect.
I will not discust the quality of the game, history, etc, but Bioware did a great job, you can play in whatever view you want and the gameplay is very good.

As for Supremme Commander it's not my cup of tea, I prefer StarCraft. ;)

[ ]'s

PS: Sadly ME tends to become boring as you progress. :roll:
 
First of all, I disagree with you that Oblivion is a "Bad" Game, in fact, it is a very good game, if you don't like it, that is fine as that is your opinion, but to call Oblivion a bad game is well, ridiculous.

You don't like first person games, that is fine, but for example, you must have forgotten all the bugs in say, fallout 1 and 2. Blizzard games are noted for being mostly bug free, but they never make it "on time". Heck, Oblivion is stable enough to run in my case approx 2 gigs of mods and DLC and it is still quite stable. (one crash in 100 hours of play if that)

Fallout 3 is a weaker game then Oblivion, as Oblivion had a very good main quest, while Fallout 3 main quest was "Blah". a "run of the mill" first person shooter like "Bad Company" sold more then 1.5 million units. Yes, no matter what type of game it is, a bad game is a bad game, and won't sell. however a "Decent" FPS will sell 1.5 million games, a "decent" top down RPG like arcanum doesn't get 300k units.

Now, there is HUGE differences between AGP and PCI-E. PCI-E x1 has 5 gigs of bandwidth (4 gigs can be used for transfers) and since it uses 8/10 encoding, it is much more reliable in not having to repeat data sends. AGP x16 limit is 2.1 GB, and no 8/10 encoding. secondly, PCI-E can receive and send data at the same time, while AGP cannot, finally, AGP does not have the ability to send enough power to the modern cards. AGP with all the allowed additional power connectors is limited to 110.5w, (41.8w of power without additonal connector) while PCI-E has 75w though the board, and can add 75w per each connector so a max of 525w. Considering that the Nivdia 9800, which is a number of years old, uses 197w of power, it just one of MANY reasons why PCI-E replaced AGP.
 
drgong said:
You don't like first person games, that is fine, but for example, you must have forgotten all the bugs in say, fallout 1 and 2. Blizzard games are noted for being mostly bug free, but they never make it "on time". Heck, Oblivion is stable enough to run in my case approx 2 gigs of mods and DLC and it is still quite stable. (one crash in 100 hours of play if that)
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Actualy I love first person games a lot. I played for many years UT99 and Ut2k3 instagib. I love Darkest Hour (ww2 realism mod), enjoy Armed Assault and played long enough Day of Defeat and Counter Strike for HL1. I love Doom 3, Half Life 1+2 and Far Cry as single player games.

I am a "fan" of first person action games. But I am not a fan of "franken-shooters" that call it self RPGs but feel like First Person games. I am also not a fan of false advertisting (as that is what Behtesda is doing in my eyes) and I do not enjoy crap story elements and bad gameplay.

Fallout 1 and 2 had bugs but even without patches it was possible to play it. Vampire on the other side. Or Arma 2. Last days of Gay and Sölder Secret wars the same. It was not possible to play those games except with "luck". All games get released with bugs just as like in the past. But what I am talking about are not glitches or a few rather smaller things. I mean bugs that make you stop the game or force you to reeinstall it and hope that it does not happen again.

The high focus on first person perspectives is a temporary fashion. There is no reason I have read so far why games with a focus on Top down views could not be succesfull. They have been in the past and they will be in the future. That many companies dont use it eventualy is not a "reason" for me its just a "effect". There is a difference.

drgong said:
First of all, I disagree with you that Oblivion is a "Bad" Game, in fact, it is a very good game, if you don't like it, that is fine as that is your opinion, but to call Oblivion a bad game is well, ridiculous.
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Oblivion Review

Depends what you see in it. For me its indeed a bad game as RPG and action game. But its not a discussion about Oblivion. Though I think I can say that "fans" of Oblivion dont have the best time around here. Cant speak for the whole community of course.

brfritos said:
As for Supremme Commander it's not my cup of tea, I prefer StarCraft. ;)
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The game was still a big success for its company which is the point I wanted to make. That its not a gameplay that fitts everyone is obvious. And it would be bad if it would even try to fit everyone.



I have not read so far any "reason" here why a company could not be succesfull with a "top down" gameplay. It seems to be very much about preferences which is a moot point in my eyes (could be wrong of course). I can only repeat again that it has to do with the decision what you want to achieve. Certain view pionts are meant for a specific kind of "experience". First person has a different experience then third person or birds view. Just as Tourn based to real time. neither is better or worse. One might be more present then the other one. More people probably use a car today then a motorbike but I guess the one which prefer a bike know why they like it.



drgong said:
Now, there is HUGE differences between AGP and PCI-E. PCI-E x1 has 5 gigs of bandwidth (4 gigs can be used for transfers) and since it uses 8/10 encoding, it is much more reliable in not having to repeat data sends. AGP x16 limit is 2.1 GB, and no 8/10 encoding. secondly, PCI-E can receive and send data at the same time, while AGP cannot, finally, AGP does not have the ability to send enough power to the modern cards. AGP with all the allowed additional power connectors is limited to 110.5w, (41.8w of power without additonal connector) while PCI-E has 75w though the board, and can add 75w per each connector so a max of 525w. Considering that the Nivdia 9800, which is a number of years old, uses 197w of power, it just one of MANY reasons why PCI-E replaced AGP.
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Strange enough though then when I went to a PC vendor and asked about AGP and PCIe all of them told me that it got "replaced" more cause of the reason that you acn sell 2 cards not cause its technology would be in every field supperior. As I said. Its a matter of what you want to achieve. And with the right programming and right configuration AGP could achieve "almost" the same as PCIe. But as said there are many oppinions. From what I have read it is possible to convert PCIe algorithm to AGP. That the difference between AGP and PCIe isnt as simple as it seems. As I said the difference shifts to PCIe that it offers "more" perspectives. But its not as huge like hardware manufacturs like NVIA or ATI want us to believe. For example the potential of AGP cards has yet not been used to its limites and it probably never will considering that almost all hardware configurations use PCIe. The technology was not maxed out. THough I am neither biased toward AGP nor PCIe. It are all technologies and PCIe is probably the better solution in the end. All I am saying is just that sometimes things get not always replaced for the rason that something is a huge improvement. It sometimes is enough when yu can make more profit with it.
 
wow, you found one reviewer who doesn't like Oblivion, wipdedo. I guess you could find someone who doesn't think that Jessica Biel is pretty, does that make her ugly? For such a bad game, it won a lot of game of the year awards. By using the same standard that that review uses, Fallout 2 would get a F as being one of the crappiest games ever. (after all, a whale appears out of no-where.) I get the feeling your hate of oblivion is more that bethesda made a sequel of a game you love and changed some stuff then actual complaints of Oblivion.

and look, you can insist all you want that PCI-E is "Just so they can sell more then one video card" when less then 1% of people have more then one video card. No matter how I explane to you that PCI-E (which you call PCI, PCI preexisted AGP) was needed as AGP was maxing out the old Bus technology. Bus Technology does not allow more then one device communicating with the computer at one time. it limited on the bandwidth, and most other technology has gone away from direct bus connections. As just a random example, you used to connect keyboards and mice directly to the bus, which was dropped for USB connections, USB offers the same type of advantages that PCI-E offered over AGP. A motherboard that limits direct bus connections is a faster, more reliable motherboard that is why USB is used so much.

If you want to go around that they changed interfaces just so less then 1% of people will buy more then one video cards you go ahead, as that is as ridiculous as saying that the requirement of catalytic converters was just so people will use platinum. AGP was a maxed out system, and (GASP) they went with the same superior technology to increase bandwidth that was being used by other devices.

of course, I wonder why you post about fallout 3 if you dislike the game so much...
 
of course, I wonder why you post about fallout 3 if you dislike the game so much...
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I don't see how this contributes to the discussion. Also, this kind of reasoning can be made against almost anything.

"hey drgong, if you like fallout 3 so much, why aren't you playing it instead of arguing over it on an internet board"

This kind of argument is meaningless and doesn't help the discussion at all
 
Claiming that top down view games cant succeed economically is utter and total bullshit. It is simply unproven claim without actual proof to back it up.
There are many, many top down games that are succesfull, you cant ignore it. There is no reason why a top-down game cant be succesfull in the modern market. Any camera angle is just as viable option as the other in a succesfull game, the one chosen depends partly on the genre, and partly on the design choices.
Hell, in some genres, top down view is the really the only way to go, RTS and strategy games being the genres where top down view is pretty much a necessity.
 
drgong said:
wow, you found one reviewer who doesn't like Oblivion, wipdedo. ...
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Did you took your time to read the full review or just its first lines and decided that it was just simply "bashing" the game and thus is wortheless? Did you understood as well the points VD made in his review? Particularly the things he wrote about Oblivions not existand player choices (which acording to Todd makes a good RPG no ...), the strange combat which makes the whole skill system in Oblivion almost useless as it makes no difference what skill you have its always just a matter of potions and time till a enemy will hit the ground as there is as well no reason behind magic or a sword either. The magig in Oblivion is just a form of "rocket luncher" (see the magic staff for example). Maybe to simply say in general Oblivion would be plane "bad" is not a good choice of words that I admit it was just for provocation. But by looking at the core mechanics of the game it has nothing inside that was not done better by countless other games. The action too. Remember the way how EVERYTHING was tied in Oblivion to your level, what is the reason to search for loot (which was a major selling point) when its all tied to your level anyway removing almost the possibility to search for a uniquie or powerfull item as even those are always conected to your level ...

I mean one can love Oblivion and STILL be critical about the game and the choices Bethesda made. Is Oblivion a bad game? Probably not. But is it some kind of uniquire high quality product? Well is Mc Donalds making food in the same quality as a 3 star Paul Bocuse
 
Crni Vuk said:
brfritos said:
As for Supremme Commander it's not my cup of tea, I prefer StarCraft. ;)
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The game was still a big success for its company which is the point I wanted to make. That its not a gameplay that fitts everyone is obvious. And it would be bad if it would even try to fit everyone.
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I agree with you, don't think I don't. I only don't liked the game, that's all.
It came when I by my GTX 295, that's why I quoted you. ;)

I played most of the games of the 80's and 90's before this "political correctness" bull enter the scene (and the dumbness turned to be prolific, BTW), so I know what you talking about.

One thing though i don't like it, no matter what quality of the game you people can say, is princess, knights, dragons, faires and gnomes.
Jeez, I run when I see a game with this kind of thing.
And yes I don't played Oblivion, the visual is so...uninspired.

Wich also is a huge contradiction, since a lot of RPG's is focused on this or D&D. :scratch:

I like games more like System Shock and Bioshock.
Or Full Throttle, that's a title I want to see with better graphics (better graphics only, don't change the history!)

[ ]'s
 
I like System Schock and its sad the got not the attention it deserved. For the company it was not such a huge success as it was in the media that seen the game as very innovative and gave it great reviews (at least here). I see it somewhat like Deus Ex. But its somewhat debatable if those kind of games are realy RPGs or more "tactical shooters".
 
Don Mikey said:
so lets be honest here, do you really think another game like the originals have any success in today's gaming market?
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No, because the original games' combat system sucked so unbelievably hard. Isometric view or not, the turn-based combat and ridiculous math-based combat skills deserve the same kind of mass grave as the E.T game. Getting mauled to death by rats because I wanted to specialize in non-combat skills, especially in a goddamn game that prides itself in being open to all playstyles, is one f*cking unfunny joke.

What future Fallout games need is better writers who adhere to the established lore. The mainly negative aspect of FO3 is the lore, story and characters - just as tacky and uninventive as in Oblivion (only awesome characters in FO3 has to be Charon and Desmond).

Keep the FPS view or lose it, just... lose the turn-based combat. While I don't have a beef with VATS per se, it might just be best to cut it. IMHO, It just felt as something tacked on to satisfy oldschool-fans, which we all know is f*cking impossible.
 
Getting mauled to death by rats because I wanted to specialize in non-combat skills, especially in a goddamn game that prides itself in being open to all playstyles, is one f*cking unfunny joke
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... and your joke is really unfunny. Know, why? If you roleplay some "good-mannered boy" in pa desert...
DESERT, IT'S A BIG FUCKING POST-APOC DESERT, PUNK! EAT IT OR DIE!
... then you want to bring some mercenaries or guards with you. If you get mauled by rats, because you want to be unkillable loner with cool-looking katana and philosophic nature, then you are stupid and can't properly roleplay at all.

More of that, "Getting mauled to death by rats" doesn't connected in any way with turn-based combat. I can say, that TB gives you even more chance to escape, if you can't fight. Turn-based loved by many fans on this site, it gives some tactical element to combats. And don't forget, that RPG was born from D'n'D, not from shoot'tha'bad'boy games.

YOU don't like TB, it's ok, man! Continue with games, that use real-time combat. But don't even try to pull Fallout in standart FPSr club. DON'T!
 
Sorrow said:
It's nice that you have chosen to ignore 2 last posts.

Let's talk about such great hits that grabbed the wider market by the collar, like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, FoPoS and X-Com: Enforcer, ok?
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VTMB was a good game, and despite being FP, infinitely better than the earlier Redemption. What brought it down was the bugginess that lead to almost utter unplayability. Although the extremely awkward hth battle design is still horrible. Overall, certainly not as good an example of FPP transitions that failed, like for example the aforementioned Commandos game.

the turn-based combat and ridiculous math-based combat skills
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I'd like to kindly remind you that this is exactly where the cRPG genre came from, and also the reason why it has had so many dedicated fans for a long time. Not every game needs to be pewpew, there's people who like math-based strategic combat, you know.
 
TwoEyedYum said:
Getting mauled to death by rats because I wanted to specialize in non-combat skills, especially in a goddamn game that prides itself in being open to all playstyles, is one f*cking unfunny joke
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... and your joke is really unfunny. Know, why? If you roleplay some "good-mannered boy" in pa desert...
(1)DESERT, IT'S A BIG FUCKING POST-APOC DESERT, PUNK! EAT IT OR DIE!
... (2)then you want to bring some mercenaries or guards with you. (3)If you get mauled by rats, because you want to be unkillable loner with cool-looking katana and philosophic nature, then you are stupid and can't properly roleplay at all.

More of that, "Getting mauled to death by rats" doesn't connected in any way with turn-based combat. (4)I can say, that TB gives you even more chance to escape, if you can't fight. Turn-based loved by many fans on this site, it gives some tactical element to combats. And don't forget, that RPG was born from D'n'D, not from shoot'tha'bad'boy games.

YOU don't like TB, it's ok, man! Continue with games, that use real-time combat. But don't even try to pull Fallout in standart FPSr club. DON'T!
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This was kind of the answer I expected.

(1) So... send the scholar out to find the water chip? Great idea, overseer. The issue here is not to what extent the post-apoc world is out to kill you, but rather that the PC can't fend off lowly rats. Now, if there were combat-experienced raiders camping outside the vault gate, that would be an entirely different issue. But I guess the rats are just radioactive rats of destruction. Makes sense.
(2) Yeah, this would be the case if the companion AI wasn't so goddamned retarded. "Oy, look, a deathclaw pack. Let's rush in like a complete moron and get myself killed!"
(3) Right, the main Japanese RPG cliché. As it happens to be, I hate Japanese RPG's vehemently for that very reason, with kid heroes who take on gods and live to tell the tale. I thought the fact that I wanted to play as a non-combat scholar who's not a walking machine of mass murder would say something about my preferences in RPG's, but I guess I didn't make myself clear. Ahem.
(4) Yeah well sometimes the things that want to kill you either run faster than you or have big fucking guns that can fire accurately over 5 km. Surviving in the wasteland is goddamned difficult, just as it should be. It would be endurable if you know, the companions didn't act like suicidal morons and get themselves killed, leaving the helpless scholar just that... helpless = unplayable game.

I don't have an issue with turn-based combat as long as it doesn't render the game unplayable. Especially not a game that supposedly allows for several different playstyles. You hardcore fans keep going on and off about everything having to be realistic and such, but somehow getting mauled to death by lowly rats count as realistic as long as it's done with an ancient, clunky combat system. Even a scholar, with a couple of nice and sturdy shoes, should be able to stomp rats into mush.

But I guess I don't have anything to complain about, the rats being radioactive rats of destruction and all.
 
^ Pff, you're being so unreasonable that you're almost trolling. Sure, it's not the most perfect TB system in existence, but I challenge you to find a game that balanced all the different styles of play than Fallout 1. I have successfully beaten the game with a non-combat character a plenty of times, so it's clearly not unplayable.

Right now, you may as well have been saying "I can't pass every single speech check with INT4, the GAME IS BROKEN!!!"

Seriously.
 
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