Why is Caesar legion so hated?

[Yamu]

NCR: A copy of the government that led to the apocalypse
House: Relic of the military-industrial complex that led to the apocalypse

Caesar is the best hope the wasteland has. Hail Caesar.

Counterpoint:

Caesar's Legion: A distorted facsimile of a society that proved its capacity for catastrophic failure sixteen centuries before the one that the NCR is based on (and for many of the same reasons), and whose culture and advances directly contributed to the founding and evolution of the NCR's.

It's the very quintessence of "war never changes," Caesar's just doing his copying a little more consciously than the NCR. Even if his grand plan went off without a hitch, all he'd be doing was forcibly setting the cycle back about a thousand years re:social development, technology, and human rights.

 

[Wumbology]

We can all agree House is the best possible choice, right?

 

[naossano]

The best scenario ?
An alliance between Jacobstown, Khans, Kings, The Followers, Bright brotherhood & Rhonda for an independant Vegas.

Most improbable scenario would be Yes man uploaded in every securitron, and following anyone orders.
Everyone would have orders that contradict each others and it would be an holy mess.

 

[Eumesmopo]

The Legion is an incredibly defensive group of self-superior assholes clinging to a bastardized artificial identity, meticulously crafted from select retro odds and ends and chock full of hypocrisy. They're the hipsters of the wasteland.

That's right! What kind of idiots restore values and identities from ancient civilizations anyway?

...besides the renacentists of course, damn hipsters must have though they were some hot shit bringing forth the age of enlightenment and all that.

 

[Yamu]

Heh... fair enough, but there is a subtle difference between being inspired to greater heights of art, science, and morality by the ideals of a bygone age and being inspired to greater heights of rape, bigotry, and Luddism by some cosplay fetishist who wants to pretend you are from a bygone age.

 

[Wumbology]

More like greater heights of order, efficiency, and power

seriously, after a nuclear apocalypse, the Legion has managed to control a quarter of the former contiguous USA after a couple years of continuous, unstopped conquest

That deserves credit

 

[valcik]

That's right! What kind of idiots restore values and identities from ancient civilizations anyway?

Yup, I don't get that obsession with Roman empire in futuristic RPG at all. Why should anyone be trying to imitate and rebuild some long forgotten empire? Mad Max propriety looks much more believable to me. Whole Europe has been rebuilded after the WW2 and do we see any Romanic imitations? No, we don't for some reason. Hell, even rebuilded Arroyo in F2 looks like a friggin' Vatican, let's hope any future Vault Dweller don't become a pope!

 

[Nar]

Caesar's Legion is hated because its ideology and way of life clashes strongly with the modern Western democratic values and emphasis on equality. On top of that the game is biased because of a lack of content for Caesar's Legion, making CL the typical 'evil guy' that you shouldn't join because that would be evil.

Personally the only aspect of their ideology I couldn't agree with was their Luddism.

 

[Atomkilla]

Personally the only aspect of their ideology I couldn't agree with was their Luddism.

What was the original reason for it, anyway?


I personally feel bad about the way CL turned out.
Looking through what JE Sawyer has written about them, the original design plans and various ideas centered around them, CL would've been a very original and very untypical "bad guy" in the gaming world. It's a great shame, really.

But eh, time is a limiting factor. If FNV had another year, hell, another 6 months in development, it would've been near-perfect.

 

[Nar]

Another factor we shouldn't forget is the horrid Bethesda engine that doesn't really allow vehicles. If I remember correctly, in the original CL design documents there were plans for mechanical chariots and interesting things like that. It would not only have made it more interesting but also more believable that such a faction could take on the NCR.

Then there are the others parts that ruin immersion. For example; if the NCR has vertibirds, why don't they just do a bombing run on Caesar's camp and kill everyone inside? CL doesn't seem to have the equipment to fight them off. Of course, once that problem is addressed a whole shitstorm of problems arrives; If the NCR can maintain vertibirds, why don't they have planes? Even simple biplanes would completely wreck CL. What about armoured cars? Tanks? Rockets? They're all relatively easy to make for a faction that is so large and in a world where they have been made before.


Also, why don't they just shell Caesar's camp with artillery? I assume that the NCR has artillery or atleast mortars.

 

[EnclaveKnight]

Another factor we shouldn't forget is the horrid Bethesda engine that doesn't really allow vehicles. If I remember correctly, in the original CL design documents there were plans for mechanical chariots and interesting things like that. It would not only have made it more interesting but also more believable that such a faction could take on the NCR.

Then there are the others parts that ruin immersion. For example; if the NCR has vertibirds, why don't they just do a bombing run on Caesar's camp and kill everyone inside? CL doesn't seem to have the equipment to fight them off. Of course, once that problem is addressed a whole shitstorm of problems arrives; If the NCR can maintain vertibirds, why don't they have planes? Even simple biplanes would completely wreck CL. What about armoured cars? Tanks? Rockets? They're all relatively easy to make for a faction that is so large and in a world where they have been made before.


Also, why don't they just shell Caesar's camp with artillery? I assume that the NCR has artillery or atleast mortars.

I would assume that it was not only the engine, but also the message the game was supposed to convey. Makes more sense for the factions to fight on foot than with machines.

 

[Zorbe]

Personally the only aspect of their ideology I couldn't agree with was their Luddism.

What was the original reason for it, anyway?

My interpretation is that Caesar isn't opposed to technology per se, but he wants to wean the legion off of pre-war salvage, because he understands it will run out some day. By preventing his troops from using pre-war medicine, he forces them to look for more sustainable alternatives.

The only other technology he opposes is combat bots, because as he said they introduce the possibility of victory without sacrifice. This would take some of the meaning out of the legion's sacrifices and be bad for morale.

I agree with those who are saying the Legion was underdeveloped. I think the biggest failure was that they didn't do a very good job of making the legion human. You meet tons of NCR folk with varied backstories, with hopes and dreams and worries. Even nameless NCR troopers bitched about the weather and showed grim determination. The legionaries are all robots. Even if you were sympathetic to the legion philosophically, it was impossible to relate to them on a human level. When one side's asking you to kill fairly developed characters, while the other is asking you to kill a bunch of mindless drones, it's hard not to see the latter as more good.

 

[BonusWaffle]

I dont get the hate.

Just from talking with caesar i got the sense that the legion is not his end goal, just a means to unify tribals. The wasteland is in many ways similar to the time of ancient rome. Many small independent hunter gatherer tribes fighting with each other and not really making a lot of progress in regards to science and culture. Caesar saw the similarities and constructed his "legion" to use as a tool to unite those tribes. Its not a very pretty tool but its one thats been proven to work in that role. If i remember right caesar right out tells you that once he has control of the income from vegas and the energy from hoover dam his empire will change drastically and act more as an actual country instead of just a raping pillaging military force annexing anything it can get its hands on.

 

[Ilosar]

Another factor we shouldn't forget is the horrid Bethesda engine that doesn't really allow vehicles. If I remember correctly, in the original CL design documents there were plans for mechanical chariots and interesting things like that. It would not only have made it more interesting but also more believable that such a faction could take on the NCR.

Then there are the others parts that ruin immersion. For example; if the NCR has vertibirds, why don't they just do a bombing run on Caesar's camp and kill everyone inside? CL doesn't seem to have the equipment to fight them off. Of course, once that problem is addressed a whole shitstorm of problems arrives; If the NCR can maintain vertibirds, why don't they have planes? Even simple biplanes would completely wreck CL. What about armoured cars? Tanks? Rockets? They're all relatively easy to make for a faction that is so large and in a world where they have been made before.


Also, why don't they just shell Caesar's camp with artillery? I assume that the NCR has artillery or atleast mortars.

The entire situation of people with machetes and football pads being able to fight an army packing guns for more than 5 minutes before being slaughtered and routed is ridiculous from the get go anyway. Obsidian had to contrive things awfully hard in order to make it a somewhat even match (oh but NCR troopers aren't well trained, oh but they get ambushed all the time in the middle of a friggin desert, oh but the Legion has huge numbers despite being a society where pre-adult mortality should be sky-high, oh but NCR generals are a bunch of utter morons, ect.). If you start to add even basic modern equipment into it it's even more ridiculous. I mean the very fact that NCR has access to radios should give them a crucial advantage, allowing them to coordinate their forces far, far better. The Legion having no medical technology to speak off means every wounded man is a casualty, while NCR can just slap a Stimpack on the wound and be ready for more. So on and so forth

Bottom line is, you pretty much have to suspend your disbelief. The Boomers are apparently the only ones who can figure out how to use modern weapons beyond a simple rifle.

 

[naossano]

If their interest in the area are threatened, they would defend it. If Helios One, the Hoover dam or the Mc Carran camp were about to be taken, they would defend it, of if it is taken, they would retake it.

But on the other hand, the common line for them to handle annexions is firstly political, not military.

- For the Vault 15, instead of attacking the khan and the squatters, they let prefer negociate with the squatters.
- For Vault City, they use a third party (Bishop and the raider) to create a situation in which Vault City has to consider their protection. They don't attack it themselves.
- For Redding, they hope that their most supportive candidate would win the election.
- For cleaning Jacobson from super-mutants, they use mercenaries to force super-mutants to make their move. (leave by themselves, or attack the mercenaries, providing a reason to invade them). Even the mercenaries don't attack.
- For Primm, they don't protect it, as long as Primm citizens don't ask for protection. If they ask for protection, they will be invaded and forced to pay tax. (even if they're responsible for that mess in the first place, by letting the prisoners escape)
- For the strip, they don't attack the securitrons or the gangs, but wait for an occasion to overthrow Robert House himself.
- They do intevene to retake the Prison, but that prison was their from the beginning, and the powerganger were their own mess. But even there, they don't move beyond that strategic point. They don't hunt the prisoners that left the prison.

So their non attacking behavior is consistent. If there is another option, they wont attack other cities/nations/people, unless there is a strategic point involved.

Beside that, they're not at home. They have to look at every corner, has if they make any mistakes, they would have not only to fight the legion, but also House, the Kings, the Great Khans, the fiends, the brotherhood of steel, and any other NCR haters. So they have to be carefull and cautious.

On the Other hand, the Legion is already at home, on the east side of the river, don't have to worry about public relations, as Caesar is a god, and have countless troops, so he can zerg rush the NCR, like the NCR did with the Brotherhood of Steel. While the NCR has to secure its positions in the Mojave, Caesar use his spies to gather intelligence about them, and only them.

Also, their attack agains't khans on bitter spring left them with a disastrous public image.

 

[Akratus]

Best outcome would be House becoming president of NCR with vice-president Courier which annexes the legion/bos/rest of vegas/mojave.

 

[RetroAmerica]

When it comes to the Legion, it was a concept which would have been excellent had it not been pigeonholed into being the traditional "bad guy". If we look at the world of Fallout as a whole, unlike what Fallout 3(Bethesda's Version) would have you think, there isn't supposed to be a clear "Hero" and "Villain" but instead we should view a morally grey spectrum.

Now moreover with regards to Caesar in general, he reminds me more of an Idi Amin style character(or any of the other charismatic dictator of the 20th Century), whereby he's developed an ideology which keeps him loved and in power, however once he dies his vision dies with him.

Also, in a lot of ways I think that Caesar is supposed to be a parallel to the Insurgency in Iraq(2nd) fighting against a large and powerful force(in the case of NV the NCR).

 

[Wumbology]

The entire situation of people with machetes and football pads being able to fight an army packing guns for more than 5 minutes before being slaughtered and routed is ridiculous from the get go anyway. Obsidian had to contrive things awfully hard...

Bottom line is, you pretty much have to suspend your disbelief. The Boomers are apparently the only ones who can figure out how to use modern weapons beyond a simple rifle.

Except Fallout follows totally different laws of reality. Melee combat is a viable option. If you wanted to be realistic, well, don't bother playing Fallout.

 

[naossano]

It would probably have been more effective with the Fallout 1&2 engine.

If you look the random encounters surrounding New Reno, for instance, the strongest npc are yakuza. They use Washizaki blade, combat knives and throwing knives, and are able to completly destroy regular gangsters with guns & rifles in matter of seconds. You actually see them being crushed notably thanks to the better critics and higher action points of yakuza.

 

[Ilosar]

Except Fallout follows totally different laws of reality. Melee combat is a viable option. If you wanted to be realistic, well, don't bother playing Fallout.

Melee combat is viable for gameplay reasons and to give variety. In-story, I've never heard of anything that justifies making melee equal to ranged so long as humans are involved. I mean, I get it when it's super mutants or guys in power armor, but guys with combat knives wearing leather jacket being able to kill people with SMGs and shotguns only works because the game engine is designed that way, it's gameplay, it's not meant to be realistic, because in reality there are no such things as hit points and action points and all that.

Same with New Vegas. A random Legion recruit can stay up after eating 5-6 5.56mm bullets despite his only protection being worthless football pads, even if in reality pretty much anyone is down for the count after that, no matter how well trained or ''tough'' they are. It's gameplay contrivance and I accept that, but in-story the justifications are completely different and mostly involve NCR leadership being a bunch of monkeys in order to give the Legion a chance.

And that still doesn't answer how a society that has the engineers able to tinker with power armor, can get a dam up and running, and can maintain vertibirds is unable to build equipment more advanced than rifles for their military. Or why they don't even think of loading the vertibirds with ordnance and chucking it from above. A few firebombs would decimate a camp made of so many tents close to each other.