Why is Caesar legion so hated?

I thought that the legion used melee primarily as a backup weapon. I dont know if i ever met a legionnaire who didnt have a cowboy rifle or some kind of explosive except for the really early game low levels and the praetorians who operate in a very enclosed space.
 
In all honesty, I dislike the legion the most because of the mission: Render Unto Caesar, having to kill Mr. House SUCKED, you're essentially killing a paralyzed, technically dead old man. That and I have to cure his royal cruelness' brain tumor by going to the Hell Hole of Hissing, Vault 34, I thought all the Ghoul noises I heard there were completely over exaggerated and there must've been some code to play more Ghoul screams than there were in the vault.
Oh, and who could forget these legendary words?
"The Caesar has marked you for death!"
 
"The Caesar" makes sense, really. Caesar is both his title and his adopted name. Plus, derivatives of "Caesar" exist in practically every language the west side of the Himalayas. Tsar, Kaiser, Kjeser...

You know'd be great? A Fallout game set hundreds of years from NV where tribals people have begun using "Czar" or some other title after Edward Sallow's short-lived empire
 
The Legion is an incredibly defensive group of self-superior assholes clinging to a bastardized artificial identity, meticulously crafted from select retro odds and ends and chock full of hypocrisy. They're the hipsters of the wasteland.

...this comment has inspired me to create a pro-Legion hipster Courier, complete with an ironic mustache and the Four Eyes perk.
 
Because their ideology is set in the early pre-war years. They are sexist against women, they disapprove of advanced technology and medical supplies such as stimpacks, and are slavers.
 
Caesar ... The legions is annyoing. Nuclear war bla bla... best chance... They are not just good guys and the wasteland will not excuse them but if they would be the last chance of earth i still wouldnt help them just cuz of that shit Rome Copy... Maybe Ncr is corrupted but who is not corrupted these days. You my friends are corrupted too even if u dont think about it. The world is corrupted these days. BoS and Enclave are the best. The Enclave could come from east and after all the bad ally with BoS and Ncr and make the New America with lots of Eyebots and Enclave radio. I just loved that hell of a shit.
 
Caesar ... The legions is annyoing. Nuclear war bla bla... best chance... They are not just good guys and the wasteland will not excuse them but if they would be the last chance of earth i still wouldnt help them just cuz of that shit Rome Copy... Maybe Ncr is corrupted but who is not corrupted these days. You my friends are corrupted too even if u dont think about it. The world is corrupted these days. BoS and Enclave are the best. The Enclave could come from east and after all the bad ally with BoS and Ncr and make the New America with lots of Eyebots and Enclave radio. I just loved that hell of a shit.


Caesar and NCR are bad, but two isolationists and ego-maniacal groups are better?

Now that's refreshing. :look:

I'm re-playing the game after some time and trying differente scenarios and with the NCR at least you can have a imperialist force rolling over everyone or an army conquering the region but also implementing some benefits and at the same time solving some problems, like quality of life and health care.
Sure, is not for free as their always taxes, but at least is something.

But the Legion? Is always conquering and annihilating everyone in their way and imposing their doctrine, usually by violence.
You know, fascism.

I doubt the BoS and Enclave would do better than Legion.
 
If, by some miracle, the BoS (at least the original, proper BoS in the west) were ever to emerge from the figurative and literal holes they've dug themselves into , I imagine their "rule" would be something like a more negligent, less beneficent version of House's. They wouldn't care how (or whether) you lived, or about the effects of their actions on anyone other than themselves, as long as they got to enforce their single-issue agenda on the wasteland. They don't care enough to conquer or hegemonize like Caesar, so as long as they were content that their own needs were seen to and that humanity was sufficiently protected from itself, they'd probably leave the wastes to see to themselves. I don't imagine it would be pretty for any nascent societies the Brotherhood deemed to be flying too close to the sun, though.

The Enclave... well, we know what they're about. At least Caesar's vision, twisted and shortsighted as it is, is intended as a path to prosperity for humanity. Relativity matters little when it comes to talk of tyrants, but Caesar did have the decency to keep his genocide incidental and his body count somewhere (probably) below the million mark.
 
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If, by some miracle, the BoS (at least the original, proper BoS in the west) were ever to emerge from the figurative and literal holes they've dug themselves into , I imagine their "rule" would be something like a more negligent, less beneficent version of House's. They wouldn't care how (or whether) you lived, or about the effects of their actions on anyone other than themselves, as long as they got to enforce their single-issue agenda on the wasteland. They don't care enough to conquer or hegemonize like Caesar, so as long as they were content that their own needs were seen to and that humanity was sufficiently protected from itself, they'd probably leave the wastes to see to themselves. I don't imagine it would be pretty for any nascent societies the Brotherhood deemed to be flying too close to the sun, though.

I think this is pretty accurate, although I imagine that under Hardin they might go so far as to take over Vegas itself, shutting down the casinos, dismantling all advanced tech and re-purposing it to serve their expansion throughout the Mojave. I do kind of wish there was a Brotherhood ending option if the player joined up and chose Independence without Securitrons.
 
That wouldn't make much sense as the BOS and especially the Mojave chapter does not have the numbers to take over the entire region, I think even against New Vegas they would have a hard time, left alone be able to take it over.
They are to much in decline to become a super power again, that is why Father Elijah searched for technological means such as the Big MT and the Sierra Madre to gain an edge over the big wasteland powers without having to go as far as recruiting outsiders into the BOS.
 
I do kind of wish there was a Brotherhood ending option if the player joined up and chose Independence without Securitrons.
Really? The Mojave chapter is easily the most unlikable of them all and abandoning the Securitrons seems kinda counterproductive...
 
Not everyone wants to rule the world, though. I can certainly see myself being split on the prospect of whether I wanted a robot army. I've played many a courier who just wanted New Vegas to go its own way without a bunch of old-world guns pointed at their heads, and even a few who plausibly reasoned that busting up the dam was the best thing for the region.
 
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That wouldn't make much sense as the BOS and especially the Mojave chapter does not have the numbers to take over the entire region, I think even against New Vegas they would have a hard time, left alone be able to take it over.

I think they could do it if Vegas didn't have a Securitron Army and if they had HELIOS One armed and activated as a weapon. Without House and the Securitrons, what exactly does Vegas have that would pose much of a problem to the BoS? There's no way the Kings, Chairmen, and Omertas could stand against a resurgent Brotherhood. If the NCR and the Legion wear themselves out and withdraw from the region (or are slaughtered and/or nuked by the Courier), I could see the Brotherhood dominating what's left of the Mojave.

They are to much in decline to become a super power again, that is why Father Elijah searched for technological means such as the Big MT and the Sierra Madre to gain an edge over the big wasteland powers without having to go as far as recruiting outsiders into the BOS.

I don't think the Brotherhood is going to attain super power status on the level of the NCR or the Legion (their membership requirements prevent them from growing to that size), but if all other factions were weakened or wiped out I could see the Mojave falling more or less under their control by default. I imagine a largely empty desert, with Brotherhood patrols (accompanied by the army of Eyebots they created from ED-E) picking over the ruins, extorting food and supplies from the remaining communities and roughing up any wasteland savage they caught with advanced tech. Not exactly a pretty picture, but then again, most of the endings aren't great for the average joe either.

I do kind of wish there was a Brotherhood ending option if the player joined up and chose Independence without Securitrons.
Really? The Mojave chapter is easily the most unlikable of them all and abandoning the Securitrons seems kinda counterproductive...

Those judgements are entirely dependent upon what kind of character I'm roleplaying. While I don't like the BoS personally, I do think they are preferable to the Legion, and in some ways, the NCR (!).

But consider it from a roleplaying perspective: for the average wastelander, gaining access to the Brotherhood really would be the equivalent of a medieval dirt-kicking peasant being raised to the rank of knight - and given a full suit of armor, along with a band of knightly brothers who have your back. You can see how that would be an attractive option for the dirt-kicking peasant! At the end of the day, the BoS are just another tribe or gang, which means that they act as an extended surrogate family for their members. This is why people join gangs, after all. If you've never had a proper home or family, suddenly being given one that will protect you (in this case, with power armor and laser rifles and super sledges) is very meaningful. With Elder McNamara in particular there's a real warmth when he welcomes you into the Mojave chapter (i.e. "you'll always have a home here" etc). The desire to belong to something greater than yourself is a powerful force.

Does that mean I think the Brotherhood's ideals would result in a prosperous, fair order in the Mojave? Not at all...but not everyone is motivated by such large scale and idealistic concerns. In fact I'd argue most human beings aren't, and are simply loyal to their tribe because it's their tribe. That's a big part of the reason why "war never changes". It's perfectly possible (and in fact rather fun) to roleplay a character who supports a paramilitary cult like the BoS out of a sense of tribal affiliation.

As for the Securitrons, I can think of a lot of reasons to abandon them. Yes-Man is hardly the most stable personality, and I don't know if I'd trust leaving him in charge of a network of robotic killing machines. Arguably too if both the Dam and the Securitrons were destroyed, there would be little of interest in the Mojave for great powers, which means that ordinary people could finally go about rebuilding their lives and societies without the threat of being invaded by some empire next door. It could be framed as a sacrifice of power and stability for long-term peace.

More abstractly, the robots represent a particular set of values of the Old World that some find objectionable: there is something to be said for Caesar's claim that at this moment in history "the world needs warriors, not gadgets". I've played couriers who agree with that sentiment but not with the barbaric totalitarianism of the Legion.

Or from the perspective of the BoS, a self-policing system of robots run by a rogue AI is a grave threat to humanity and like all advanced tech, must be brought under the control of the Brotherhood or destroyed. If that's what you believe, then the choice is pretty clear.
 
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Those judgements are entirely dependent upon what kind of character I'm roleplaying. While I don't like the BoS personally, I do think they are preferable to the Legion, and in some ways, the NCR (!).

But consider it from a roleplaying perspective: for the average wastelander, gaining access to the Brotherhood really would be the equivalent of a medieval dirt-kicking peasant being raised to the rank of knight - and given a full suit of armor, along with a band of knightly brothers who have your back. You can see how that would be an attractive option for the dirt-kicking peasant! At the end of the day, the BoS are just another tribe or gang, which means that they act as an extended surrogate family for their members. This is why people join gangs, after all. If you've never had a proper home or family, suddenly being given one that will protect you (in this case, with power armor and laser rifles and super sledges) is very meaningful. With Elder McNamara in particular there's a real warmth when he welcomes you into the Mojave chapter (i.e. "you'll always have a home here" etc). The desire to belong to something greater than yourself is a powerful force.

Does that mean I think the Brotherhood's ideals would result in a prosperous, fair order in the Mojave? Not at all...but not everyone is motivated by such large scale and idealistic concerns. In fact I'd argue most human beings aren't, and are simply loyal to their tribe because it's their tribe. That's a big part of the reason why "war never changes". It's perfectly possible (and in fact rather fun) to roleplay a character who supports a paramilitary cult like the BoS out of a sense of tribal affiliation.

As for the Securitrons, I can think of a lot of reasons to abandon them. Yes-Man is hardly the most stable personality, and I don't know if I'd trust leaving him in charge of a network of robotic killing machines. Arguably too if both the Dam and the Securitrons were destroyed, there would be little of interest in the Mojave for great powers, which means that ordinary people could finally go about rebuilding their lives and societies without the threat of being invaded by some empire next door. It could be framed as a sacrifice of power and stability for long-term peace.

More abstractly, the robots represent a particular set of values of the Old World that some find objectionable: there is something to be said for Caesar's claim that at this moment in history "the world needs warriors, not gadgets". I've played couriers who agree with that sentiment but not with the barbaric totalitarianism of the Legion.

Or from the perspective of the BoS, a self-policing system of robots run by a rogue AI is a grave threat to humanity and like all advanced tech, must be brought under the control of the Brotherhood or destroyed. If that's what you believe, then the choice is pretty clear.

I do not think that anyone really thinks of the Brotherhood in this way, except for those who are playing or played a Brotherhood character.
 
I do not think that anyone really thinks of the Brotherhood in this way, except for those who are playing or played a Brotherhood character.
Considering the western wastelands have been considerably settled by 2281, agreed. The Brotherhood looks more like a clan of kooks hiding in the hills next to organized nation-states, and citizens of those nation-states tend to grouse at their position in the pecking order, suggesting they don't think of themselves as "dirt-kicking peasants."
 
I do not think that anyone really thinks of the Brotherhood in this way, except for those who are playing or played a Brotherhood character.
Considering the western wastelands have been considerably settled by 2281, agreed. The Brotherhood looks more like a clan of kooks hiding in the hills next to organized nation-states, and citizens of those nation-states tend to grouse at their position in the pecking order, suggesting they don't think of themselves as "dirt-kicking peasants."

I was talking about looking at the BoS from a RP perspective. A member of the BoS, or a former member who still agrees with their original goals (though not their present methods) would probably see the "nation-states" as "uncivilized" or "unworthy" of the tech the BoS has to offer.
 
I actually really liked Killgores view about the BoS.

The Legion and NCR, your a meer number to an organization so encumbered by bureaucracy and a vast population. Much like our world, the chance of an ordinary Joe making something out of himself is slim to none. And honestly, most folks know the rags to riches story our elite pump is almost totally bullshit. Your average civilian is likely a workaholic one of constantly trying to make ends meet. Worse if your a legion civvy.

The BoS however, like Kilgors gang definition, is a very simple yet communistic lifestyle. For a Spartan society, there is very little emphasis on comfort or a bread and circuses type mentality. Everyone contributes, everybody gets pretty much the same. Its kind of like being in the army except you really do not have the allure of the easy life waiting for you when you get out.

I can already see a very high sense of camaraderie that is not hindered by class, cultural or religious distinction. There is a very powerful attraction to be able to say your part of an organization that is the baddest asses in the wasteland. You know if someone fucks with you, they get to tango with all your brothers and sisters wearing powered armor, rocket launchers, plasma rifles, gatling lasers, etc. Unlike in the Legion where there is no modern medicine or the NCR where modern medicine is expensive, everyone gets access to top notch care as everyone is essential to the team. Everyone eats for the same reason and everyone has an equal prioritization on average. Everyone gets assigned a bunk with walls and protection unlike life where you can get randomly beat on by legionnaires in a bad mood or be homeless because of financial problems.

Its also easy how the BoS can look down upon the other factions of the wasteland, much akin to the Spartans view of others. There simply is less daily bullshit to deal with. The BoS see the folly of trying to build empires and wisely stayed out of messes like that, ultimately to their detriment of course. But the detriment exists solely out of the need for the NCR and Legion elites to just control as much as they can instead of leaving the fuck alone. The BoS has never been interested in making war, unlike the NCR, LEgion and what was Unity.
 
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I do have to add the qualifier that the Unity was never interested in making war, per se. It's not their fault those damned execrable normies wouldn't stop squirming and/or opening fire whenever they tried to enact their plans for the Master's peace :-P
 
In regards to the thread's original question, as a girl I found it hard to find the Legion endearing in any way, considering what role women play in Caesar's control. I completely understand why the developers made that decision for the legion (considering how strong the gender roles were in ancient rome), but as a female I just found it too much of a stretch to help them, ha.

I agree with what someone else mentioned in this thread, that the members of the Legion don't receive the same amount of backstory and empathy that say, Freeside or Brothers of the Apocalypse get. I was pretty disappointed by the lack of interesting cast members in their group, especially considering all of the potential personalities that would lead someone to joining Caesar. I actually quite like their attire haha, though it seems I'm in the minority on that one. And I find Caesar's dialogue to be very interesting, even charming at points.

Also, any potential love I had for them totally went away when I found out Boone's backstory. STILL SAD ABOUT THAT!
 
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