Why is Caesar legion so hated?

[Kilgore Trout]

I do not think that anyone really thinks of the Brotherhood in this way, except for those who are playing or played a Brotherhood character.

Considering the western wastelands have been considerably settled by 2281, agreed. The Brotherhood looks more like a clan of kooks hiding in the hills next to organized nation-states, and citizens of those nation-states tend to grouse at their position in the pecking order, suggesting they don't think of themselves as "dirt-kicking peasants."

If you occupy a privileged position in one of the emerging nation-states, then certainly, that is how the Brotherhood probably appear to you. On the other hand, if you are just a wasteland wanderer or a poor scavenger, the opportunity to join a powerful gang with an Old World arsenal might be rather tempting, especially if you've got a grudge against the NCR... Different people likely have different views of the Brotherhood based on their background, ranging from hatred to disdain to envy to admiration (The game shows the range of these opinions based on the dialogue choices it gives you with Veronica, the first time you meet her). Moreover, those opinions might change based on your interactions with them in the game world. Most of the Couriers I've played in New Vegas have been hostile to the Brotherhood by endgame for one reason or another, but I've also played characters who joined them and sincerely identified with their cause.

Anyway, my main point (which seems to have been lost) was simply that picking a faction or making any kind of decision can be justified from a roleplaying perspective (even the decision to join The Unity in FO1) and that as a roleplayer, I go with what makes the most sense to my character, rather than how I regard the decision from outside the gameworld. Although New Vegas has a huge number of different endings, I still wish there were additional endings or at least additional slides for some of the decisions that your character makes.

 

[Legatus Nuntius]

Nostalgia, people have grown attached to the Brotherhood and NCR over the years and its sad to see how they've fallen. I always like the Brotherhood, but the Mojave Brotherhood are nothing compared to the brotherhoods in f1 f2 tactics f3(even the outcast talk about preserving technology so it can be reproduced), the Mojave brotherhood are just a bunch bandits stealing from people.

 

[David Lewis]

Reasons I hate the Legion?

They're Misogynists for one. The way they treat women is unforgivable. It astounds me to this day how Caesars Legion was able to go toe to toe with the NCR with only a male military. I would go so far to say that the NCR were able to hold them off simply because they had more numbers due to having fully trained female military forces.

Secondly.. they're wasteful. Caesar discovers there is a pre-war facility under his camp and what does he want? He wants it destroyed! This is insane! Instead of seeing tools to help achieve his ends he only sees something to destroy.

I could go on but I will stop at this.

 

[Walpknut]

The Legion isn't technically misogynist. They treat everybody like a tool no matter the genre, the male soldiers are little more than canon fodder, even at higher ranks they are just expected to die for the Legion. They are more like ruthlessly utilitarian.

Also the NCR defeated them because of the current Legate's shortsightedness in the heat of battle that caused him to run into a trap set by the rangers in Boulder City, the Legate was also promptly brutally punished for his error.

 

[Yamu]

The Legion isn't technically misogynist. They treat everybody like a tool no matter the genre, the male soldiers are little more than canon fodder, even at higher ranks they are just expected to die for the Legion. They are more like ruthlessly utilitarian.

They're pretty inescapably misogynist, dude. Their culture marginalizes women, regards them as nothing more than communal property, espouses their supposed inferiority, allows them no chance at advancement from this abject station, and grants Legionaries of even the lowest echelons agency and control over them. With all respect, the fact that it also happens to make harsh demands of its men does nothing to cancel any of that out.

That said, @David Lewis, the Legion (supposedly) has a pretty clear numerical advantage over the NCR's frontier forces, women or no. They may be composed of only males, but those males are the combined males of 86 tribes massed specifically for the purpose of invasion, while the NCR has a threadbare spread of demoralized troops and a scattering of special forces. They didn't even bother to bring their best troops to the front for the first battle of Hoover. I don't think the two empires' respective attitudes toward gender in the military had a great deal to do with the outcome of the engagement.

As to their wastefulness, I choose to believe that most of the typhoon of stupidity whirling around the Legion before the second battle of Hoover had to do with the tumor-induced madness of their unquestioned philosopher-emperor, sort of a "madness of King George" scenario. I'd like to hope that if he'd been of sound mind and body Caesar would have conducted himself (and his campaign) with a little more practicality.

 

[Walpknut]

Can you really label them as purely misogynist when all of their direct members are only seen as tools? Most recruits are expected to slit their troats if captured and any transgression is punished by death. They dish out the dehumanization very equally.

Also Caesar's disposition to destroy whatever is in the bunker isn't crazy or stupid. He knows that whatever is in there is House's and he probably would be the only one that could use it. Sending any of his men could taint the carefull indoctrination they have and is in his best interest to destroy whatever weapon House is hiding there. The stupidity comes from trusting the Courier to do the job and not thinking of getting any confirmation that he did other than the ground shaking.

 

[Yamu]

I'm not sure there's really a such thing as "purely misogynist" any more than there's a such thing as "purely angry" or "purely lopsided." It's just an adjective, and I'd say it's one that the Legion meets the dictionary definition of in every sense. Saying that they're not misogynist because they're harsh militaristic totalitarians is sort of like saying that something can't be green because it's also large and slow. Or, more directly, it quite literally amounts to saying that lower-class slave owners have it just as bad as their slaves.

The fact remains that they actively hold women as being lesser than men. There's a clear pyramid of merit and worth in the military hierarchy of Caesar's Legion, and the female slaves are at the bottom of it. Caesar himself might not be actively misogynist, but the culture of the Legion most definitely is, and we're told so directly and unequivocally by both men and women under the Legion at every turn.

*****

As far as Caesar sending his own men into the bunker "tainting their indoctrination," that line of reasoning never really made much sense to me. I mean, yeah, I can see why Caesar wouldn't want the robots used, even if he's shown absolutely no aversion to discrete use of advanced pre-war technology when it suits him and it might have been prudent to find out exactly what was down there before blowing it up. Even conceding that, though, he never worries about his men's constant exposure to pre-war weapons and armor ruining their indoctrination, and in fact, that exposure only seems to have strengthened their contempt for those like the Brotherhood and the NCR who lean on those things as a way of life. And with his men running willy-nilly all over Vegas it's not as if they're unfamiliar with Securitrons anyway. His reasoning is inconsistent here.

Besides, even if he feels he can't have his rank-and-file handle it, why not send a Frumentarius or two instead of the Courier? This sort of thing is basically what they exist for. Vulpes has seen and done things in service to the Legion that give lie to its tenants and ideals better than even its most eloquent opponents ever could, and despite (or because of) it all he's still more loyal to the cause than almost anyone.

Worst case scenario, you send a Legionary down to do the job and you have troops waiting outside the door to kill them when they get back. You could even tell them that's how it was going to go down and they'd probably still be happy to give their life for Caesar.

 

[Byzantine]

To me, Caesar's Legion was a perfect represenation of some of the worst mistakes in history repeating themselves, and because of it, the Legion was bound to eventually collapse (no matter the outcome at Hoover Dam). That, and Caesar himself was clearly a megalomaniac, with a terrible obsession for power. An empire so dependent on conquest would be very short lived, no matter how charismatic their leader was. Besides, the same thing happened to the Mongols when Genghis Khan died. Likewise with Attila the Hun.

 

[naossano]

The mongols empire didn't collapse with Genghis death. It expanded before him and after him. (although, not for many centuries)

 

[Walpknut]

I am just saying you can't just peg them down as only misogynists when they clearly de-humanize all the members of their military force regardless of gender. There is no merit system in the military of the Legion, you get a fancy title more for show and reponsibility than for any real prizes or privileges, Silus is a high ranking centurion that got captured by the NCR and decided to not slit his throat, a most players choose to go with the NCR path in that mission, but you have the option of facilitating his escape, not that it matters anyway, he failed at his task of fighting to his last breath, he showed individual determination and that's just a no no for the canon piggies. They are given their trainning so that they will die for the goals of the Legion. It's true that a lot of the lowly grunts are misogynists, they are also xenophobes and they more than likely will be used as canon fodder, even after attaching trophies to their armors, they are nothing more than grunts. Hell Canyon Runner seems to believe male slaves are far less useful than female ones because they are not fit for the only use men have in the legion, and that's giving their life to the mission. There are exceptions like Ulysses and the Dog handler guy (and depending on what version of the events, Lanius himself) who got to keep their lives after assimilation, but they are more an exception than the rule. Also they have directly collaborated with communities that allow women to fight, and after the assimilation they usually leave the women alive while breaking or killing the men.

TL/DR calling the legion Misogynistic is a little shortsighted, they are just general utilitarians that treat everyone like tools, so they would be misandrists too. And when you use both terms at them you might as well just call them an all inclusive term.

 

[TheChosen1]

Silliest dressed band of raping, slaving marauders you'll see east of California, I'll say that. Where's that touch of Old World class?

Accurate description by Veronica

 

[Byzantine]

The mongols empire didn't collapse with Genghis death. It expanded before him and after him. (although, not for many centuries)

True enough (my mistake), but his surviving sons did fight one another over their inherited domains. Branching off from Ulysses' ramblings, Caesar's death would more than certainly spark a vicious power struggle; for all his muscle, Legate Lanius still lacks the same charisma and cunning as his predecessor.

 

[Walpknut]

He doesn't need charisma when he can inspire fear.

 

[No Man]

Perhaps, but he'll still need the brain to maintain the army. He might be good at tactics, but to understand and be good at logistics? Fear won't keep his soldiers fed or equipped.

 

[Byzantine]

Neither does it necessarily guarantee loyalty among his men. Using fear alone to lead the Legion, Legate Lanius would be something of a lion tamer in that sense; one errant slip, and he'd surely get bitten.

 

[Byzantine]

Agreed. Couldn't have put it better, myself.

 

[valcik]

I don't think that a society based on principles of slavery could work properly, that's why I "hate" the Legion. The need of constant physical and psychical oppression against slaves, to keep them obedient, slowly turns their masters into a sadistic and very brutal men. Such a behavior can't be shrugged off just like that, so this attitude would affect their families, their children would be raised into this violent role too. Honestly, who would like to live in a violent society consisting of sadistic psychopaths, who are using torture and brutal punishments as a main tool for reaching even the very basic goals in their lives? Such a society would turn against itself, sooner or later, spreading brutality and bestiality amongst their own members.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

The mongols empire didn't collapse with Genghis death. It expanded before him and after him. (although, not for many centuries)

True enough (my mistake), but his surviving sons did fight one another over their inherited domains. Branching off from Ulysses' ramblings, Caesar's death would more than certainly spark a vicious power struggle; for all his muscle, Legate Lanius still lacks the same charisma and cunning as his predecessor.

It's rather obvious to assume, that if Legion lost the battle, Legate got killed. Imho, Lucius is more than enough to keep Legion running. After all, doctrine is created already, and only thing they need to do, is just to follow it.
If Legion won, there shouldn't be problems with keeping is stable, because from this point the Vegas would be uniting everything, not specific person. Like with eternal Rome.

Honestly, who would like to live in a violent society consisting of sadistic psychopaths, who are using torture and brutal punishments as a main tool for reaching even the very basic goals in their lives? Such a society would turn against itself, sooner or later, spreading brutality and bestiality amongst their own members.

You're serious? Smallfolks don't have problems at all under Legion, and unlike pre-Legion, they are at least safe.

Lands under Caesar's protection enjoy stability and security far greater than lands outside its sphere of influence. Traders that have to cross NCR's territories with a guard contingent can safely travel on Legion trade routes alone, without fear of being raided.[SUP][40][/SUP] People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities.[SUP][14][/SUP] However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfills the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord.[SUP][14][/SUP][SUP][41][/SUP] Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes.[SUP][14][/SUP]

Honestly, for me Legion is better than NCR, unless you're son of some baron or someone with power.

 

[valcik]

You're serious? Smallfolks don't have problems at all under Legion, and unlike pre-Legion, they are at least safe.

Yup, I'm serious. Look at what you're quoting and think about it some more:

They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities.

This means that those small conquered tribes and communities don't have any freedom at all. Individuals are tortured or executed by legionnaires for even the smallest sign of disobedience. Don't you remember those crucified bodies rotting across the Mojave? We're talking about the Legion itself and this is exactly what I've written before - every member of the Legion is trained from his childhood to be ruthless and very violent, because that constant fear of brutal punishment is the only way how to keep the slaves obedient and docile. Such a personalities belongs to what is known as the dark tetrad - sadism, narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavelism, dude. Would you like to spend your life in company of such a fine gentlemen? Well, to each his own.

Honestly, for me Legion is better than NCR, unless you're son of some baron or someone with power.

Well, I think both of them suck big time, and that's why there's only one way for me how to finish the FNV properly. No Gods, No Masters! Let there be true freedom for poor people of New Vegas, to the hell with NCR and Legion!

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Crucified bodies from Mojaves are worst example, because as far as I remember, Joshua confirmed that Caeser treat Mojave as warzone, so there is completely different approach for people there.

Look at it:

While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals

Considering this not-Tribals in four states have pretty nice life under Legion, why not prefer this than NCR or dangerous Vegas?

every member of the Legion is trained from his childhood to be ruthless and very violent,

Only tribals, who are going to be part of army.

Would you like to spend your life in company of such a fine gentlemen? Well, to each his own.

Well, I would like to spend my life in some small community. It's unikely that Cesar would want anything from me, and I would have food/water/electricity and be save. It's better than not having any protection and alwyas living under the threat of some bandits/monsters and famine.