Why is Fallout 3 called "Oblivion with guns"?

[Boggins]

Nice bait. Either you're trolling or simply havent played it yourself, or you would know exactly what I mean. You should give it a try, its free.

hypocrisy:
- the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

 

[CerberusGate]

you would know exactly what I mean. .

No, I wouldn't know what you'd mean seeing how you've tried lying about certain aspects regarding Morrowind and got caught by the rest of us so I don't trust anything you'll say.

Also, accusations of trolling now, eh? It's like the kettle calling the pot black.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

What is so different about it then? The random dungeons? The controls? I was still half right about NPCs dropping these weird dialogue lines, and you dodged that.

You really dont have to trust me, like I said try the game yourself or check a wiki.

 

[CerberusGate]

What is so different about it then? The random dungeons? The controls?

Play for more than 10 hours then. I'm not wasting my time to go into detail to a proven liar.

 

[Risewild]

I really don't understand why you guys are debating dumbing down of TES games in a thread asking if Fallout 3 is just Oblivion with guns .
Specially after Hassknecht and others already said all about the dumbing down, while mfkndggrfll just blatantly lie and goes "No. I know better then the rest.".

I will say two words: "Leveled Enemies". Just by implementing that in either Fallout 3 and Oblivion, Bethesda dumbed down these "sequels" into becoming totally different games from their predecessors. One might not realize, but it completely changes the games, gameplay, world, combat, freedom, how the player plays the games, etc.

It really rocks the foundations of a game series, but since it is not visual, most players do not realize just how much the games changed.

In my opinion, changing a game series from "un-leveled enemies" to "leveled enemies" really changes the game so much that it shouldn't be considered a "proper" sequel.

Another big difference is the loss of "vertical freedom" (yes, I just made that expression up). While Morrowind lost climbing (and I do miss it), it still maintained "vertical freedom", it still allows the player to levitate and fly. It still allows the player to reach places that can't be reached in any other way (and some of those can have nice loot or other goodies), it still allows the world to be one (all the towns are located in the same world map, you can go over the walls, you are inside the town), Oblivion and Fallout 3 do not allow that. They removed "vertical freedom" because towns are in different world spaces (no matter if you can climb the walls, you will just be in an empty space behind those walls, not the town itself). That is another major feature that dumbs down a game series and prevents a game from being a "proper" sequel.

 

[CerberusGate]

Specially after Hassknecht and others already said all about the dumbing down, while mfkndggrfll just blatantly lie and goes "No. I know better then the rest.".

I will say two words: "Leveled Enemies". Just by implementing that in either Fallout 3 and Oblivion, Bethesda dumbed down these "sequels" into becoming totally different games from their predecessors. One might not realize, but it completely changes the games, gameplay, world, combat, freedom, how the player plays the games, etc.

It really rocks the foundations of a game series, but since it is not visual, most players do not realize just how much the games changed.

In my opinion, changing a game series from "un-leveled enemies" to "leveled enemies" really changes the game so much that it shouldn't be considered a "proper" sequel.

Another big difference is the loss of "vertical freedom" (yes, I just made that expression up). While Morrowind lost climbing (and I do miss it), it still maintained "vertical freedom", it still allows the player to levitate and fly. It still allows the player to reach places that can't be reached in any other way (and some of those can have nice loot or other goodies), it still allows the world to be one (all the towns are located in the same world map, you can go over the walls, you are inside the town), Oblivion and Fallout 3 do not allow that. They removed "vertical freedom" because towns are in different world spaces (no matter if you can climb the walls, you will just be in an empty space behind those walls, not the town itself). That is another major feature that dumbs down a game series and prevents a game from being a "proper" sequel.

Level scaled enemies really suck. It's annoying that when you achieve high levels, every enemy becomes a more powerful version of itself. Oblivion did it worst, making being a high level PC a chore rather than a treat.

 

[Risewild]

Level scaled enemies really suck. It's annoying that when you achieve high levels, every enemy becomes a more powerful version of itself. Oblivion did it worst, making being a high level PC a chore rather than a treat.

FO3 didn't stray much behind. Ghoul Ravagers and Albino Radscorpions are things players hate with a passion because they are just pure bullet sponges.

EDIT: I forgot the Mothership Zeta aliens with the "Inertia Suppression Field", you go there at high level and they are a chore to kill too.

An interesting bit of information: While FO3 with all the DLCs only allow the player to reach level 30, Mothership Zeta is coded in a way that allows the DLC to scale to Level 50 (just like FNV with all DLCs).

 

[mfkndggrfll]

''a proven liar'' lmfao this guy is so salty... good laugh

The level scaling was an attempt at addressing the flaws of a world that does not scale, no system can be perfect. Non scaling worlds have the issues of virtually unwinnable fights and making lower level content uninteresting.

What the hell are you even talking about games being proper sequels...if any game fails at living up to the previous one its Morrowind because it shrinked the scale of the game on almost every aspect.

F3 removed the vertical freedom lolwat? You guys are a proper sequel to the steam forums hahaha

 

[CerberusGate]

Ghoul Ravagers and Albino Radscorpions are things players hate with a passion because they are just pure bullet sponges.

I find it funny that the lesson Bethesda took from the bullet sponge enemies is to make them even worse and more annoying with the new 'legendary' enemies. Nothing like a bullet sponge enemy that regenerates partway through the fight.

 

[NovaRain]

FO3 didn't stray much behind. Ghoul Ravagers and Albino Radscorpions are things players hate with a passion because they are just pure bullet sponges.

Bullet sponges are already annoying, but an even worse design IMO is those armor-ignoring damage from DLC enemies (Broken Steel & Point Lookout).

 

[5545Trey]

"Do you think Fallout 3 is just gamebryo with guns?"

Yes, because that is exactly what it is.

 

[Boggins]

I will say two words: "Leveled Enemies". Just by implementing that in either Fallout 3 and Oblivion, Bethesda dumbed down these "sequels" into becoming totally different games from their predecessors. One might not realize, but it completely changes the games, gameplay, world, combat, freedom, how the player plays the games, etc.

It really rocks the foundations of a game series, but since it is not visual, most players do not realize just how much the games changed.

In my opinion, changing a game series from "un-leveled enemies" to "leveled enemies" really changes the game so much that it shouldn't be considered a "proper" sequel.

It makes my dick hard me happy when I see another person shitting on level-scaling. That shit isn't even exclusive to Fallout and TES.

Level-scaling ruined the ability to go to a higher-level area and get your ass kicked. Sure, at the time it's a pain in the ass, but there's no greater feeling than coming back to that same area at a higher level and just steamrolling the motherfuckers. "Oh, how the tables have turned..." It positive feeling outweighs the negative by a ton.

Not only that, with the way level-scaling works, no matter how strong or weak you are, enemies will always be just as difficult as the last. "Yeah, now I've got a full set of X-01 power armor and a Fat Man. Time to kick some as- wait, oh, I forgot... now that I've got all this cool shit, so do the enemies." You might as well just remove levelling up and different powered gear from the game entirely if you're going to put level-scaled enemies into the game.

The last problem I have with it is that it just doesn't make sense logically. "Yeah, we raiders weren't planning on upgrading our gear anytime soon. But we changed our minds when some random nobody from the opposite side of the map (who we, realistically, shouldn't even know about at all) appeared. Oh, and we only get stronger and upgrade our gear when they do."

Non scaling worlds have the issues of virtually unwinnable fights and making lower level content uninteresting.

Lower-level enemies are low-level for a reason. They're supposed to be easy. Secondly, by "unwinnable" you mean "higher-level." There's a level up system for a reason; if an enemy is kicking your ass, you leave and come back when you've levelled up enough. How hard is that to grasp, Mr. "my IQ is over 9000?" It's just like real life; if someone's stronger than you, then you go the gym until you're more buff than the other guy. It's a very, very, very easy thing to understand. I assure you.

 

[CerberusGate]

''a proven liar'' lmfao this guy is so salty... good laugh

So several pages ago, you didn't say that NPCs walked up to you in Morrowind and told you stuff? Funny... you did say this:

And afaik Morrowind was the first TES game to introduce immersion breaking NPCs that stop in the middle of the street to tell you that you are allowed to defend yourself if attacked. Thats quite a major dumbing down mechanic for a Role Playing Game. Oblivion or even Skyrim didnt have that.

We pointed out that what you said was a complete lie and you promptly changed points shortly afterwards rather than acknowledge the fallacy. I'll leave the quote here so for the record's sake.

Also, I find this it funny how desperate you seem to be to avoid acknowledging your own actions. Saltiness implies I feel angry or upset but I don't, not when I'm dealing with someone who can only resort to petty insults, flimsy points and weak dismissals.

The level scaling was an attempt at addressing the flaws of a world that does not scale, no system can be perfect. Non scaling worlds have the issues of virtually unwinnable fights and making lower level content uninteresting.

On the other hand, it's more natural and immersive. Worlds and encounters should not scale to the player's level but rather the player should be improving their PC to handle those worlds & encounters. Nothing is more fun than being able to go back to areas that kicked your arse before and kick back due to how powerful your PC has become by then. Pretty sure old RPGs did that all the time before level scaling became popular.

What the hell are you even talking about games being proper sequels...if any game fails at living up to the previous one its Morrowind because it shrinked the scale of the game on almost every aspect.

F3 removed the vertical freedom lolwat? You guys are a proper sequel to the steam forums hahaha

Actually the consensus is that Morrowind is a pretty good sequel to Daggerfall, with some IIRC pointing how that the scaling down was to the game's benefit as a sequel. The shrinking of scale did ensure that the setting, important NPCs and writing are given better focus on. Scaling down in return for focus can be good, which you don't seem to grasp. Plus IIRC Bethesda did not have the time nor resources to build the entire province when they were making Morrowind.

Also, of course we'd be a continuation of the Steam forums. This is a forum or can you not grasp that notion? Plus vertical freedom was in relation to Morrowind (no Levitation or Climbing skills from Oblivion onwards), not Fallout 3. Try reading @Risewild 's post properly.

EDIT:

I was still half right about NPCs dropping these weird dialogue lines, and you dodged that.

Except I addressed that. I pointed out that your PC is an outlander to the province so the people you ask will let you know about the customs and practices of Morrowind due to how different it was to whatever province you came from (heck, Dunmer PCs are explicitly noted to not be from Morrowind). You must have not read that bit in order to maintain this narrative you want to create.

Somewhat off-topic, what did happen to that project to remake Van Buren on Fallout 2's engine?

 

[Kohno]

Someone back in the day (2008) made a short video comparison on why 'Oblivion with guns'. It of course only touches few surface level things, but it's a good start. The rest comes naturally once one's able to get a grasp on the most obvious.

 

[Risewild]

''a proven liar'' lmfao this guy is so salty... good laugh

The level scaling was an attempt at addressing the flaws of a world that does not scale, no system can be perfect. Non scaling worlds have the issues of virtually unwinnable fights and making lower level content uninteresting. Scaling enemies isnt bad if the balance is done right.

What the hell are you even talking about games being proper sequels...if any game fails at living up to the previous one its Morrowind because it shrinked the scale of the game on almost every aspect.

F3 removed the vertical freedom lolwat? You guys are a proper sequel to the steam forums hahaha

Please put me on "Ignore" again. I am talking to the other users here, not you.
You're not the center of the universe and to be honest, seeing how you blatantly lie, get caught and then say you don't lie, played the game for a measly 10 hours and think you know everything about it, only looked the Fallout 2 quests on the wikia and then calls them boring, says others copy and paste your arguments when what others do is write complex and well researched arguments (not just look at a wikia page) and posts with lots of examples (while all you do is saying "this sucks because I say so") and when faced with well constructed arguments that you can't counter, you just use the "Ignore" function of the site (If you can't take the heat, don't play with fire). I couldn't care less about what you say.

You're good for a laugh and for making the forums a bit more active. But that is all.


Again he shows he don't realize things. He can't see how changing a fundamental game mechanic into a totally different one changes the game in such deep ways.

Flaws of a game that doesn't scale. No one ever complained about non-scaled enemies on games like Fallout 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate games, Planescape Torment games, Icewind Dale games, Neverwinter Nights games, Temple of Elemental Evil, Arcanum, Morrowind, Might and Magic games, Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, Final Fantasy games, Disgaea games, Wasteland games, Divinity Original Sin games, and the examples just pile on and on.

One can notice how the best RPGs are usually (or even always, haven't really checked all of them yet) un-leveled. But it causes problems apparently.
Here is a poll someone made asking if people prefer leveled enemies on Oblivion and more than half 52.2% said "No" while only 23.5% said "Yes"
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.86161-Poll-Leveled-Enemies-and-Oblivion
Here is another thread about the level scaling in Oblivion, the vast majority of posters prefer un-leveled:
http://www.eurogamer.net/forum/thread/52053
Here is another where posters call the leveled enemies in Oblivon a broken mechanic (and the majority agrees that it is not a good thing):
https://www.reddit.com/r/oblivion/comments/4o0s42/is_oblivion_leveling_broken_or_intentional/
There are plenty of threads like that everywhere.

Also, one of Oblivions most used and popular mod is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (more than half a million downloads), and the premise of that mod is to unlevel everything in the game. And there are plenty other mods for Oblivion that unlevel enemies, loot, enemy equipment, stores, etc.
There are plenty of mods like that for Skyrim and some for FO3 too. It is very obvious that players prefer an unleveled game (specially in the case of Oblivion).

If you change such a big core part of a game, the sequel will fail as a "true" sequel. And not only fail, but the players will not be happy either (as shown in my link examples, and like anyone can google "Oblivion leveled" or something similar and see for themselves).
Lets say that a Super Mario Bros. game changed how you jump. Let's say that from now on, you can only jump when you're near edges and enemies. It still allows jumping, but only on "perfect" locations, so you never miss the perfect place where you have to reach with your jump. Wouldn't that change the Super Mario Bros. game so much that wouldn't be a "proper" sequel? That is what leveled games do, hold your hand so you always have that "perfect jump" because the enemies are never too strong for you.

 

[CerberusGate]

I am talking to the other users here, not you.

I wonder if its reason to keep replying to users it seems to oppose is to simply have the last word.

I've already ignored it and don't care for its opinions (10 hours and it feels like it has the authority to judge a game ) as well. At least having someone so misinformed does keep the forums more active than usual.

There are plenty of mods like that for Skyrim and some for FO3 too. It is very obvious that players prefer an unleveled game (specially in the case of Oblivion).

In 3, there are some signs that they did not want to completely level scale everything. The fact that all the Deathclaws are stuck up in the northern areas does indicate that the developers have some knowledge and desire on not level scaling every encounter.

And then Broken Steel came along to with level-scaled enemies spawning frequently.

 

[Norzan]

Now people reminded me of the level scaling of Oblivion. Fucking Goblin Warlords...

I was about to go into an huge rant about it, but i took a deep breath and i'm fine.

 

[Hassknecht]

So people in Morrowind telling you some basic facts and rules when asked for general advice is immersion breaking, but every goddamn bandit running around with top tier glass armor isn't?

 

[Norzan]

And Daedric armor. What, did they go to an oblivion gate, killed a bunch of dremoras and took their armor?

Even worse is that the bandits can just go to a merchant, sell that armor and make a ton of gold. Instead they try to rob from people in the middle of the road.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

Lol thats more than basic facts.... its like saying you are allowed to take a breath if you run out of air... Every single living creature is naturally aware of this. Probably the dumbest dialogue line in the whole series, brought to you by the 'best' TES game...

People gotta realize that the scaling of enemies was an attempt at making the whole world relevant, Oblivion was so full of side content, and devs expected players to do it. Without scaling players would quickly become OP, they would try to 100% a certain guild/town's quests then hit the next city and overlevel everything. The scale of the game was so big that they needed that, like the instanced towns.

I dont think I ever pushed a char high level enough to meet these, highest was 19. IMO if you hit the point where this happen then you should be done with the game, unless you boosted/grinded your levels rather than earning them naturally.

Also lol at this guy trying to dismiss what I say because 'hurr durr only 10 houers'' when I got 100s of cumulated hours across the whole series which is essentially the same game. People on steam love to do that too. Seriously if you need more than a couple hours to analyse a game then you need some Mentats.