Why is Fallout 3 called "Oblivion with guns"?

[mfkndggrfll]

They removed features like player background giving perks affecting the level up scale. They removed other features like banking, renting rooms for extended durations. The combat got virtually dumbed down. In the first 2 games you had to click and swipe the mouse while actively dodging, in Morrowind you just click.

They also ultimately traded the large scale for a small hand crafted place. That was due to technical limitations but it took out a HUGE chunk of the RP material the game offered. That was great at first but now that the graphics have aged this isnt much of a feat.

I also started playing it recently and met plenty of immersion breaking NPCs telling me im allowed to defend myself if I ever get attacked....no shit.. As far as offering a RP experience that game is still subpar compared to actual RPGs like Baldurs Gate.

They also tell me that I should go practice my skills on bandits and 'bad people' but not honest citizens because that would be murder. Quite ironic when you have played games with more grey areas. Its almost like the devil in disguise trying to make me murder people.

I agree with the quest markers thing, though I dont find them to add that much value to the game.

 

[CerberusGate]

breaking NPCs telling me im allowed to defend myself if I ever get attacked

Erm... that's not the NPCs being obvious. That's them teaching you about the taunt mechanic that can be used to avoid an assault charge.

should go practice my skills on bandits and 'bad people' but not honest citizens because that would be murder

That's also their advice to the first time player. Also, creatures are included in that list.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Arrille:

practice your skills: "Practice on creatures. And outlaws. And anyone who attacks you first. When in doubt, run away. And if you attack a citizen by accident, DON'T kill him. Turn yourself in to a guard, pay your fine, and clear your name. Or people will treat you like an outlaw."

 

[Hassknecht]

The combat got virtually dumbed down. In the first 2 games you had to click and swipe the mouse while actively dodging, in Morrowind you just click.

That's just false, Morrowind has the same combat system that Daggerfall had, swiping in all directions to execute different attacks. Unless you have "always use best attack" activated, which would then be your own fault. Something Oblivion removed because weapons only did one value of damage regardless of attack, btw.
Also, you couldn't actively dodge in any game until Oblivion because all weapon attacks were based on dice rolls, only Oblivion started with actual hitscans.

 

[CerberusGate]

That's just false, Morrowind has the same combat system that Daggerfall had, swiping in all directions to execute different attacks.

I think mk is talking about having to drag your mouse to do attacks but I never got the time to try out Daggerfall for myself so I could be wrong.

Something Oblivion removed because weapons only did one value of damage regardless of attack, btw.

I hate the fact Oblivion and Skyrim turned TES combat into simplistic mashing of the attack key with blocking being the only thing that breaks up the monotony.

 

[Norzan]

Yup, Oblivion and Skyrim's combat is just two rocks grinding at each other until one breaks. No strategy of any kind. The usual winner is the one with better stats.

Wait, spears were removed in Oblivion? Damn, they actually sound cool. Poking enemies to death sounds fun.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

By dodging I mean stutter stepping, though in the end the lack of enemy variety made that tactic pretty OP with a high speed stat. In DF/Oblivion/Skyrim you can try your luck on much tougher enemies by using jukes.

I havent played much Morrowind but afaik you can either witness yourself slowly winning or slowly losing a fight, or hope to be the last man standing if its equal. I havent yet seen mechanics allowing you to turn fights.

''I hate the fact Oblivion and Skyrim turned TES combat into simplistic mashing of the attack key'' lol did I just read that? Morrowind's combat is the most simple of all 5 TES games.... Im not even saying this to bash it, the devs simply made the games that way.

The ragdoll mechanics did a good job breaking the monotony in my case.

Fun fact: TES series havent managed to craft a truely good combat system over the span of 5 games, when the initial game was meant to be an arena game focused on combat.

 

[CerberusGate]

I havent played much Morrowind but afaik you can either witness yourself slowly winning or slowly losing a fight, or hope to be the last man standing if its equal. I havent yet seen mechanics allowing you to turn fights.

''I hate the fact Oblivion and Skyrim turned TES combat into simplistic mashing of the attack key'' lol did I just read that? Morrowind's combat is the most simple of all 5 TES games.... Im not even saying this to bash it, the devs simply made the games that way.

The ragdoll mechanics did a good job breaking the monotony in my case.

Fun fact: TES series havent managed to craft a truely good combat system over the span of 5 games, when the initial game was meant to be an arena game focused on combat.

Actually, levelling up Agility IIRC improves dodge chances meaning that you can survive encounters with higher Agility.

Also, though combat encounters are more stat dependent, one can easily affect the scenario to gain an edge, either by Stamina management, Alchemy, custom enchantments etc. Heck mashing attack ala Oblivion and Skyrim which wastes Stamina will cause you to lose more (IIRC, hit chances and dodge is also dependent on Stamina. I know for a fact that casting success is dependent on Stamina which forces mage PCs to be careful with wasting Stamina in fights)

Lastly.... Haven't played much Morrowind yet feels that they have the authority to comment on Morrowind...

Consider your points on these games ignored from now on.

 

[Norzan]

This man calls Morrowind the "worst TES" in the series and yet hasn't played much of it. This man just loses credibility with each post.

I remember how "useful" Agility is in Oblivion. I have 120 agility, i get staggered as much as if i had 20.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

Not much compared to other TES games but still a solid 10 hours, I think thats a decent amount of time for a RPG.

 

[Norzan]

That's why you didn't even knew you have different moves depending on which direction you are moving.

Chop - while standing still or running forward while strafing left and right. Slash - while moving left or right. Thrust - starting attack while moving forward or backward. Each one is more effective in different situations.

You can't critique games for shit, that's what i'm starting to get from your posts.

 

[CerberusGate]

Not much compared to other TES games but still a solid 10 hours, I think thats a decent amount of time for a RPG.

That's... paltry. Pathetically little for any RPG let alone conventionally long game.

Your opinion is worse than something to be ignored, it's worthless.

 

[Hassknecht]

I think mk is talking about having to drag your mouse to do attacks but I never got the time to try out Daggerfall for myself so I could be wrong.


I hate the fact Oblivion and Skyrim turned TES combat into simplistic mashing of the attack key with blocking being the only thing that breaks up the monotony.

It's not that much of a difference. In Daggerfall you swipe the mouse to get different attacks, in Morrowind you use your movement keys. The same principles with different damage values for attacks apply (like spears do most damage when thrusting and little when chopping, while axes do all the damage chopping and very little thrusting). That changed with Oblivion, where all attacks do the same damage.
You can still flutterstep and whatnot in Morrowind. It works just like Daggerfall in that regard, blocks and hits are done by dice rolls and your agility can make you completely op.
Ever seen a Morrowind speedrun?

I guess the worst part of Oblivion is how it removed the most fun parts: Fortify Acrobatics 1000/Levitate 1000 and doing ridiculous effect stacks with alchemy.

 

[CerberusGate]

It's not that much of a difference. In Daggerfall you swipe the mouse to get different attacks, in Morrowind you use your movement keys. The same principles with different damage values for attacks apply (like spears do most damage when thrusting and little when chopping, while axes do all the damage chopping and very little thrusting). That changed with Oblivion, where all attacks do the same damage.
You can still flutterstep and whatnot in Morrowind. It works just like Daggerfall in that regard, blocks and hits are done by dice rolls and your agility can make you completely op.
Ever seen a Morrowind speedrun?

I guess the worst part of Oblivion is how it removed the most fun parts: Fortify Acrobatics 1000/Levitate 1000 and doing ridiculous effect stacks with alchemy.

I wonder if the movement keys approach was done to cater to console players who did not use the 'Use Best Attack' option. It seems most likely.

On the fun parts, I miss Levitate and Acrobatics especially once you've levelled up and made crazy custom enchantments to Fortify the associated skills. Ever since Skyrim killed off Acrobatics, there hasn't been a decent substitute.

 

[Hassknecht]

I wonder if the movement keys approach was done to cater to console players who did not use the 'Use Best Attack' option. It seems most likely.

On the fun parts, I miss Levitate and Acrobatics especially once you've levelled up and made crazy custom enchantments to Fortify the associated skills. Ever since Skyrim killed off Acrobatics, there hasn't been a decent substitute.

I don't think so. Morrowind was still developed with PC in mind first, with console ports coming out later. I think the change came with the permanent implementation of free mouse look. Daggerfall still kept many control schemes from Arena and like many games of the early 90s it didn't use mouse look by default. That enabled mouse control over the weapon. In Morrowind it wouldn't work due to the mouse permanently controlling your camera, and locking your point of view everytime you swing your weapon is not a good idea in a game that embraces 3D a lot more.

 

[CerberusGate]

I don't think so. Morrowind was still developed with PC in mind first, with console ports coming out later. I think the change came with the permanent implementation of free mouse look. Daggerfall still kept many control schemes from Arena and like many games of the early 90s it didn't use mouse look by default. That enabled mouse control over the weapon. In Morrowind it wouldn't work due to the mouse permanently controlling your camera, and locking your point of view everytime you swing your weapon is not a good idea in a game that embraces 3D a lot more.

True. It would be awkward and possobly disorienting to use Daggerfall's attack controls if you were to have control of the camera at the same time.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

Did anyone here even finish DF before commenting, doesnt matter which TES you prefer but dont twist the facts. Poor Oblivion is getting blamed when all it did was follow in the predecessor's footsteps. Its like saying Skyrim started the dumbing down trend.

And afaik Morrowind was the first TES game to introduce immersion breaking NPCs that stop in the middle of the street to tell you that you are allowed to defend yourself if attacked. Thats quite a major dumbing down mechanic for a Role Playing Game. Oblivion or even Skyrim didnt have that.

 

[Hassknecht]

Did anyone here even finish DF before commenting, doesnt matter which TES you prefer but dont twist the facts. Poor Oblivion is getting blamed when all it did was follow in the predecessor's footsteps. Its like saying Skyrim started the dumbing down trend.

And afaik Morrowind was the first TES game to introduce immersion breaking NPCs that stop in the middle of the street to tell you that you are allowed to defend yourself if attacked. Oblivion or even Skyrim didnt have that.

I never had Morrowind NPCs tell me that. They'd only stop and say stuff like "Move along, outlander". And of course Daggerfall didn't have that, it had no voice acting whatsoever (unless you count the FMV scenes and the guards voice-spamming HALT incessantly).
Anyway, the point is not that Morrowind didn't simplify large parts of the game, but that the step from Daggerfall to Morrowind at least felt less severe than the step from Morrowind to Oblivion. Morrowind was an extremely defining game for the TES franchise, for the modern games more so than Daggerfall.
While Morrowind was more streamlined than Daggerfall and definitely simpler, it didn't feel as actually dumbed down as Oblivion felt.
But it's true, Morrowind did dumb down a lot from Daggerfall. One could argue that it was for the best, though, as Daggerfall tried too much to be a computerized Pen & Paper at a time where it was too ambitious for the technical limitations.

 

[DarkCorp]

People here have already pointed out numerous examples of how TES has been 'streamlined,', since DF. Did DF have issues, primarily extreme bugginess, sure. But I wouldn't say that equates to 'dumbing down'.

 

[CerberusGate]

to introduce immersion breaking NPCs that stop in the middle of the street to tell you that you are allowed to defend yourself if attacked

Now you are obviously lying. No one stops to tell you this fact, you have to engage in conversation and get the response from either asking NPCs for a little advice/little secret or some Morrowind lore.

 

[Norzan]

Now that he can no longer criticize Morrowind for having just one click combat, he starts nonsensical arguments like npcs apparently stopping you to tell you that you can defend yourself if attacked. Which is somehow immersion breaking, even though to get that dialogue option you have to actively to talk to npcs to get it. They don't stop you in the middle of the street to tell you that.

Again, you can't critique games for shit and a majority of the time you use nonsense to critique games.