Your definitive thoughts on Fallout 3.

[Sorrow]

Toilet Healing: Have you seen Man vs. Wild? Bear Gryllis would do it. Actually the whole concept of needing to eat and/or drink to survive bums me out. Who really wants to keep track of that shit?

Actually having to eat and drink isn't a new idea. It was implemented in classic RPG series like Ultima and Exile. When done well, it's just having to another resource that is used up automatically.

 

[Allen63]

Regarding nuclear cars:

Back in the very old days, one of the projects managed just down the hall from my office was nuclear engines for aircraft -- we already had small, less powerful ones for spacecraft power generation. And, people had some possible concepts for practical nuclear car/truck engines.

Problem was -- fear of released radioactivity. Even though the radioactive parts of the engines could be housed in nearly indestructible containment, that was not good enough. So, all the research was eventually dropped.

Still, nuclear engines for cars/trucks were thought feasible, and it is an idea definitely compatible with an evolved 50s culture -- which seems to be a basis for the Fallout world.

However, as others have said, the nuclear material itself would never explode in a "real engine" -- just be released if some other part of the engine exploded with enough force to break the containment.

 

[sickfuck_diablo]

Actually having to eat and drink isn't a new idea. It was implemented in classic RPG series like Ultima and Exile. When done well, it's just having to another resource that is used up automatically.

The first thing I thought about was in GTA:San Andreas, there was that whole system of working out your body and the like... just kind of annoying repetative obstacles that detracted from the gameplay. Scavenging food and finding sparkling toilets sounds like it will take away from carrying enough ammo and being able to do quests/explore the landscape.

But who knows, maybe it will be done well and add to the.... immersive setting? They might as well go the Sims route and have a command to shit/piss somewhere. Radioactive pee streams? Might make an interesting addition to melee combat.

 

[Sorrow]

The first thing I thought about was in GTA:San Andreas, there was that whole system of working out your body and the like... just kind of annoying repetative obstacles that detracted from the gameplay. Scavenging food and finding sparkling toilets sounds like it will take away from carrying enough ammo and being able to do quests/explore the landscape.

That's the point, at least in theory. Player carries food and water and is limited by his ability to obtain them. This means that he can't carry tens of pistols and rifles, which removes the problem of becoming the richest person in the world that is common in cRPGs.

 

[Grey_Wolf]

Yes, about the eating. I think that should be left the way FO has done it for so long. If you eat it, you get healed, if you don't? Nothing happens, it just hangs in your inventory.
Otherwise i'm just going to stack up on brahma and deathclaw meat, and call it an annoying thing.

The water is tolerable, and even somewhat interesting. To a point.

However, as others have said, the nuclear material itself would never explode in a "real engine"

*ahem* i never said never, i just said it would be really small/minuscule chance of it happening. Unless the person 'pre-engineered" the car to do so, with some selective amount of materials.

Problem was -- fear of released radioactivity.

True, but there is also the part of the material going 'critical' (lol), and some bad stuff happening. Usually you have to make sure the rods stay at a certain temperature, and that there are no ruptures in the cooling lines.
If you think having a bad radiator is bad, imagine when the radioactive material in your car overheats.

Anyways, like i've said before, i really had no contact with that project, and how they would reduce it to that small a level is not known to be so far.

 

[Dougly]

you don't seem to remember the food that heals you in fallout do you...?

Apples only. They were radiated. Anyway, just because it's in fallout doesn't mean it's good.

Not Apples only. Mom's ratloaf in the Den would heal your character. Also, there was a female character in F1 who you could talk into leaving the local gang. If you did, she went on to become a cook, and, when you revisit Junktown later on, she'd prepare food that could heal your character. Neither Mom's ratloaf, nor the prepared meals in Junktown, were radiated.

The water is much less of a concern to me after remembering that. Really, it doesn't have any less basis in SCIENCE! than being healed by eating ratloaf. I'd feel better about it, though, if certain sources of water could "poison" you as well as/instead of exposing you to radiation. There are certain sources of water that you really shouldn't drink from. Ever.

Still, nuclear engines for cars/trucks were thought feasible, and it is an idea definitely compatible with an evolved 50s culture -- which seems to be a basis for the Fallout world.

However, as others have said, the nuclear material itself would never explode in a "real engine" -- just be released if some other part of the engine exploded with enough force to break the containment.

Yeah. A bigger problem, though, is that pre-war cars in Fallout were fusion powered, not fission powered. Remember using fusion cells to fuel your car in F2?

I don't know a whole lot about science, but, as has been explained on here by someone else, you really shouldn't have radioactive material at all if you blow up a fusion powered car.

 

[Vault 69er]

Not to mention that fusion reactors wouldn't blow up at all. Even fusion bombs need fission triggers to start a chain reaction.
Not that a fission reactor would blow up in that manner either, as I understand it.
Todd has no clue. His entire reasoning seems to be "lolz Fallout is about nukular stuf so we need nukular explosions!!! Awesome!!"

 

[Balinor]

For anyone who doesn't know fusion is the slamming of particles togather, like say hydrogen to create helium, as such im not sure how you would ever get a fisson based mushroom cloud (fission being the splitting of an atom) from a fusion device being destroyed. Even assuming we ignore that FO cars are fusion and not fission based I fail to see how any normal truama to the car would cause the melt down that leads to said cloud.

Another problem with a Fission based power system in a car is the weight. there are simply put no light materials that you could use in a car like object that would properly protect from the varius gamma rays or the like created by the reactor (unless somehow it just made aplha and beta rays, which seems highly unlikely and unlike any device we can concieve of with our current technological knowhow). Could you make an aircraft or even a large truck? Yes, but not a car sized object (or at leats if you want it to travel anywhere)

as to the questions:

Toilets: Well I guess drinking water to get hp back pretty stupid, but at least you could say it really does promote healing (try healing your wounds in real life without water) just not to any practicle speed in a game like situation. Besides the science I can safely say i'd die first before I drank anything out of a toilet nuclear wasteland or not.

Dialogue: While I dont dislike spoken words in a game (when done with at least some amount of professionalism) the idea of limiting my favorite aspect of the first two games mearly so dimwits can listen instead or read does nothing for my joy factor.

Fatman: I could also make a gun that shot backwards into the shooter instead of the target, dunno why i'd do that either, but at least the resulting suicide would be faster then the horrible radiation poisoning I would give myself for flinging a nuke way to close to me.

Rock-it: Meh. Why complain? If I could make magical toasters that I could use to fling toys at my sister when I was young I would have been thrilled. Might be worth a laugh or two.

G.O.A.T.: I dunno im a sucker for these kinda things if done right (though I admit it is just a gimmick and I am a shallow shallow man) but if you can't choose to skip it I will rapidly get pissed on replays (assuming of course the game warrants a replay in the first place)

Liam Neeson: a simple gimmick just like Patrick Stewart in Oblivion. (I am a Stewart fan-girl ((as my wife puts it)) and his voice did nothing for me in oblivion, which should say something) Would have been better to hire a professional voice actor as others have mentioned.

Weapon Degeration: Meh. that isnt how weapons work if maintained. but I dont see it as a major issue unless it detracts from gameplay signifigantly.

Enviromental Translation: I guess im in a minority in saying Art deco didnt matter to me much (it was more of a '30's and '40's thing in reallife anyway, not that the '50's didn't have plenty too) buildings and such I can easily forgive. Im not so sure I like how mutants and Powerarmor is being shown though. I can live with it though.

VATS: Sigh. I will miss real turnbased mechanics. It should be obvious though no matter how much old farts like use complain the new generation (as a group, there are of course bright young people who stand loyally with us.) doesn't seem to care for it much. it seems a bit unrealistic for us to expect them to cater to us. If done well it will at least be playable to me I suppose.

Final notes: I agree totally that the first two games were all about reverence for the nuke. One of the more elegent parts of the series to me was how they handled Nuclear weapon's hand in the destruction of humanity. There was a sweet irony to the Master's attempt at rebirth being destroyed by the ultimate form of human self loathing (after all what else can you call making a weapon that can only end humanity?). Then in number two the Human Enlcave's ambitions to cleanse the wastes of mutants being ended by the same thing that cause their current situation in the first place. It was clear that Nukes were a horrible thing in the games and that using them was no laughing matter. not a gimmick, not a cool weapon to reap an easy victory, but rather a last ditch effort made by a man (read woman) to stop what would have been a great travicty on the people he had chosen to protect.

((Edited for the few typos I found, 'course my spelling skills are severely lacking so there are bound to be more.))

 

[Silveressa]

Toilet Healing.

Um... That got old in Duke Nuke'em and has no place in a reality based game like fall out. (not to mention after 200 years the water in a toilet would've long since evaporated, unless it was in a ultra humid envrioment for condensation or open to rain fall. And even then, doubtful it'd heal you, and not be a breeding plot for mosquito larve or some nasty pond sum.

Dialogue.

Fallout 1&2 did it perfect with key npc's having spoken and the rest text. All spoken means less of it, which is never a good thing. And hearing the exact same half dozen or so voice actros repeatedly thoughout an entire game is a BIG peeve of mine. (I hated that about septerra core)

Fat Man.

Nukes brought about the appocalypse, fall of man, etc.. Now they're play toys? Ruins the realism, and is kinda pointless.

Rock-it.

Bleh, just let me sell the scrap metal to a dealer in town instead. (reminds me waaay to much of the junk gun from the rpg dead lands wasted west)

G.O.A.T. character creation.

Might be fun the first time, but an option to skip it is a must. (or if not hopefully added into it by a mod soon after like fans did to oblivion)

Mr. Liam Neeson's role.

*shrugs* Another overpaid movie star given a bigger wad of cash then they deserve just to read some pre written text. The money would've been far better spent on professional voice acting, especially the actor who did the intro VO's in the first 2 fallouts.

Weapons being degraded over time.

Once again, unrealastic and anoying. (S.t.a.l.k.e.r had it and it was infuraitingly pointless the idea a gun would wear out after only 50-100 rounds being fired through it. If modern rifles did that no solider woudl live through their first tour of duty.) Once again hopefully there's an option to turn it off, or a mod will be made to remove it entirely. (like was done with s.t.a.l.k.e.r) Now if they change it to needing to use a cleaning kit on the gun after every few hundred rounds, that makes sense, but still a needless addition/distraction from the main focus of the game.

How the environment has been translated.

Meh, eye candy is good an all, but not if it distracts from development of the storyline, world size, # of sub quests, etc..) And the exploding cars reminds me of something out of a loony toons cartoon. I'd almost expect critical failures on traps/ explosives/ grenade throwing leaving you painted black and blinking too.

I'm really having my doubts about Bethsada being able to do this with any quality, and wonder if maybe Bioware would've done better.

As my life partner told me (and she loved the original fallout games)

If they don't seriously change things and keep the same theme and quality of the originals it's going be Crapout 3 instead of Fallout 3.

 

[Grey_Wolf]

Even assuming we ignore that FO cars are fusion and not fission based I fail to see how any normal truama to the car would cause the melt down that leads to said cloud.

I believe nuke reactors are Fusion based, and that is how the car work run, based off of fusion.

My question would be the sheilding.

And yup, breaking free the nuclear material would only release gas, and problems, no "Big Explosion" unless perhaps the cooling radiator was taken out, the material was still being excited(the process of fusion was still taking place), and there was a "special instance" that would cause it. (no i will not tell you how to set off a reactor ) But as said, that would be a freak instance.
or if there was some "tinkering" with the car before hand lol

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

I believe nuke reactors are Fusion based, and that is how the car work run, based off of fusion.

So fission reactors are fusion based too? 'lol'

 

[Grey_Wolf]

yeah, disregard that. I'm reading a lot of stuff at the moment.
And apparently i got my reactions mixed up.
I was thinking of a type of fusion reactor that uses hydrogen, i believe. Kind of a... odd thing.
Anyways, i'm wrong. It is/was fission.

 

[mizajam]

Few words about some of new Fallout ideas. Please pardon my errors; I am still learning Shakespeare’s language.

Guns being degraded over time:
Weapons getting degraded over time? Increasing chance of jamming, misfire, and other critical failures over time and usage? It is an excellent idea, especially for a world of Fallout. Finally a gun found lying for decades in a puddle on the bottom of a cave won’t be as functional as the one bought from a professional gunsmith. It’ll be great if a post nuclear game – in which probably most of tools and weapons are pre-war junk – features the influence of passing time on items. Wouldn’t it be great if pieces of the same type of gun had various quality. This can increase in practice the “motion-in-inventory”.
And that’s not all. It will force you to use weapons carefully and prudently. In reality, the more powerful firearm is, the faster it gets used up. Magnum ammunition while fired releases extreme gases pressure in barrel. Therefore guns like Desert Eagle, require some really frequent maintenance in real live. And barrel exploitation also results in gradually decreasing gun’s accuracy…
The proper balance of this rule may be problematic though. Reality gives some hints. In case of modern firearms the demanded durability of an assault rifle (example of XM8, .223 Rem.) is: 15000 shots without jamming, 20000 shots without replacing major parts (that’ a lot – M4 was deigned to be only half that durable). These numbers are impressive but don’t expect that a civilian .338 Lapua Magnum hunting rifle will be so durable. In some extreme cases (stainless barrel, which poorly tolerates strong ammunition heat) only after 500 shots barrel’s rifling starts to fade.
The interesting rule would be heating-up the barrel. Decent assault rifle can fire whole standard soldier’s ammo supply (210, that is seven 30-round clips) without brake until the heat will damage the barrel and cause spontaneous combustion of bullet in the chamber. That’s why heavy machine guns have “heavy barrels” which are more resistant.
I was glad to see a repeating bolt-action rifle in Fallout World finally. On one of screenshots, it looks to me like Remington 700 (known in military since 1966 as M40 Sniper Rifle). I’m only confused seeing it without telescopic sight since this weapon doesn’t have standard issue regular mechanical sight. Perhaps it’s the effect of that vulnerability of items in action. Actually that makes everything even more interesting – finding weapon with damaged scope forces you to improvise: aim using just line of barrel.

Fat Man:
I agree with the opinion that in Fallout universe, in post-nuclear mentality (mythology even) Nuclear Bomb was something respectable – at least. Nuke was not a funny, cool thing to blow up things. Nuclear Bomb was the ultimate weapon – A Doomsday Device. Probably it caused in post-nuclear society some quasi-religious fear, as a relic (like of the Arc of the Covenant maybe – praised and dangerous at the time). A toy-nuke launcher is not an idea for Fallout World.

Rock-it Launcher:
Sounds fun…

Healing in Toilets:
Well, a lot was said about that. Not only it doesn’t seem ridiculous to me, I understand the intention of the general idea and will support it because goes into a good direction in terms of some realism and balancing the game’s rules. It’s obvious that deciding to rest in the middle of the desert – in purpose of healing wounds after random encounter battle – was always a little… unrealistic. Staying in such extremely harsh conditions – without shelter, source of water, with freezing-cold nights and scorching daylight effectively spoils the ambience of hostile wasteland. It makes that Rhombus’ cool and creepy speech about desert in the north of Lost Bunker (“Whoever goes there, never returns…”) a little… exaggerated. Of course the danger out there was the Master’s Army but the sole environment should be a threat in post-nuclear world. The problems which I had with finding water in Fallout1 were very little. Of course I’m stretching it – those are little flaws on Masterpiece – but only to make my point.
Personally, I suggest a rule which would allow to rest (and heal) only in places with source of fresh sweet water (if it’s toilet, so be it), and maybe proper shelter. The other rule should make such rest efficient – that is: without wasting to much time or without limit of HPs to heal – only in places which are comfortable, warm, with bed, etc. Such restrains would make whole idea of staying in a hotel-room for night (and paying for it) a reasonable one (because economical). Also difficulties with resting outdoors should make outdoorsman skill, doctor and first aid more significant (I never used first-aid kit in none of original Fallouts, I used “rest until”).

Translation of environment:
The environment in the game is surprisingly fine to me. I don’t expect THIS game to introduce realistic decomposition of ruins and “flora-claiming-the-world”. For all I wish, Fallout landscapes should not be realistic but surrealistic… What I consider as appropriate is a view of actually dead cities (not collapsed and rebuild) – sinister-looking ruins of the fallen civilization on background of strangely red-clouded sky – a suggestive images of places once full of life, now deserted. The idea of rebuilding civilization is good but only in few places, and on very small scale. Lack of desert though bothers me a little, but that’s because I will always miss California, Nevada and Arizona – the archetype of Fallout World.
I agree with the opinion that there should be more ‘50s style architecture, also some earlier (before the WWII) modernism and art-deco – sky-scrapers like Chrysler Building, Rockefeller Center, “Empty State Building”, etc. I appreciate though that cool “Red Rocket” statue on one of the screenshots with nice, very ‘50s-looking, wreaked automobile. Generally inspiration of car designs in the game should be limited by the styles that occurred since ‘30s up to early ‘60s like it was in the original Fallouts. And I mean UP TO ‘60s, period! What they did with pre-war cars in Fallout: Tactics was a blasphemy…
I also think there should be more comic-book style like in Fallout 1&2. For instance that skin-tight, impeccable vault-dweller suit made the Original Yault-Dweller look like some comic book superhero. And that’s how he or she was probably perceived by ordinary wasteland inhabitants – like a person from an other world, a spirit of the Ancients that came to scattered Earth to help & save… Unfortunately this suit suddenly turned untidy and a little baggy.

 

[ford_prefect]

All right, i can't resist to give my opinion:

Toilet Healing: Wow! glittering water in wasted toilets! It sounds to me like Final Fantasy with a Monty Pythons twist. Oops! sorry, they're no longer welcomed here! The main problem with healing in RPGs (PnP or cRPG) is that if you try to make it realistic, you ruin the fun. You need a way to heal the character fast and easy, without him spending weeks in rehabilitation at a hospital. ¿magic water? an answer as bad as any other. The problem is to make it connect with the FO spirit. It just is not FO stuff. The toilet thing... a joke a bit silly. But stimpacks aren't much realistic, anyway.

Dialogue: If it is really to be all spoken, they'll have a good amount of job, but if it's well done and doesn't mean a cut in dialogue options, might be cool.

Fatman: Didn't you hear the motto? Violence is fun! They know what we're looking for in a game like this. Freedom of choice and an adult approach? No! Big explosions and rolling eyeballs! MWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! Just another evidence that they haven't catch the spirit.

Rock-it: Just another stupid thingy. I just expect it doesn't have a real weight in the game, because i don't mean to use it at all. Ecs!

GOAT: i have to admit i really like a lot this concept. Seriously. In PnP (and cRPG, i guess), players like to have their character numbers to optimize the stats. It's a part of the fun, but it lowers the role playing. In PnP, i've mastered a Cthulhu campaign where i had all the character sheets and the players were not allowed to see them. My conclusion is that players gets more involved in the story when they are not calculating the benefits in XP and optimizing the sheet. An option to skip the tutorial, however, would be wwelcomed I hate the Arroyo Temple of Annoyances.

VATS i like this idea too. Really, the turn based system is fine for PnP, where it's too difficult to control everything in a combat without ordering things a little. but i find it artificial and breaks the narrative. Too much optimizing ranges, calculating hit odds and the like. In a real fight things are less 'clean', as to say. I like the midpoint they've chosen. Ah, by the way, isometric perspective and hex 'board' are fine for table wargames, but its a bit surpassed for cRPG's.

Liam Neeson: Who's this guy? one who played the Jedy? Bah, i'm not concerned for him. Waste of money, to me.

Weapon derangement: Nice, realistic. I like this feature, too.

Environment: For what i've seen, the environ is fine. We can give it a chance, until we can see more in-game stuff. What i expect is a system to travel fast... wandering through maps and maps is just an anticlimax, to me.


I think what captured me from the start in these games was the freedom of choice, the lack of moral paternalism, the way your actions really matters to the narrative, the posibility to solve the problems in different ways and the depth of the intriguing story... IMHO, isometric, turn-based and the like are just tools to serve the narrative. If they can be updated, much better. Ah, and i really expect Beth to get rid of the f**king inventory thing, it've always sucked.

Ehm... and sorry for my english.

 

[Stag]

Stimpacks weren't meant to be realistic, they were meant to be easy and in the spirit of 50's sci-fi.

 

[mizajam]

About that Toilet discussion…

Hell, it’s not even realism in healing I’m concerned about. It’s about rationality in using all of game and plot options. Maybe it’ll spoil the game. But since the whole F3 project is eventually an experiment… I just want to see Fallout in which using First Aid Kits and sleeping in hotels isn’t a complete extravagancy (at least). It’s more RPG fun I’m concerned about.

Sim-packs are not only OK – they’re fun, cool, and (like Stag mentioned) very retro-futuristic.

That's my opinion...

 

[ejacksonian]

I have no real problem with Bethesda's adding new elements.

My real problem (and I believe many others as well) is this is not Black Isle's Fallout 3.

That said, I will judge Fallout 3 when I see it. Even the best of ideas can be wrong executed. I'm more concerned about their execution of their Fallout 3.

If they do a bad job, well, that's it. If they do a bad job, we criticize it. It's simple as that.

If they do better than our expectations, but not as good as F1 or F2, I will applaud it as the step in the right direction, but criticize them for not actually being in the right direction.

If they do a better job than our expectations, and also is good as F1 and F2, than I will have few complaints.

I shall wait and see. If this becomes like Oblivion, they will anger me. If this meets and then exceeds my expectations, and meets the quality of Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, then I will applaud them.

 

[Stag]

So, you'll applaud them for going in the right direction, while simultaneously criticizing them for not going in the right direction? Am I missing something?

 

[ford_prefect]

About the toilet question:

I think i didn't make myself clear. I don't like the water healing, it's just a magic wand sort of thing. Magic or psychic power has nothing to do with Fallout.

I can excuse stimpacks, it's a sci-fi thingy that fits much better with the environ. And you need some fast healing not to ruin the fun.

I don't like the possibility to open your inventory in the middle of a combat, taking out 8 stims and using them, reload your weapons, change a weapon for other, use 2 jet and 1 buffout and eating an iguana on a stick, all that in less time that it takes to shot a gun. But it's a different subject.

 

[ejacksonian]

So, you'll applaud them for going in the right direction, while simultaneously criticizing them for not going in the right direction? Am I missing something?

I guess I was being too vague. My apologies. What I meant was that I would applaud them doing the right things, but criticize them for doing wrong things. I would also wait and see when the actual product comes out, rather than prejudging it.