The Neo-Liberals ...

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    I like how Yanis actually elaborates on different types of UBI, like a trust fund, besides the usual idea. He also realizes that it is a rather expensive proposition and that there is no such thing as 'free shit', someone has to pay for it. He brings up Star trek, which like other science fiction writers have elaborated on, is the use of a robotic slave class to provide the free shit at no charge.

    Noam on the other hand personifies the snobby leftist in which he not only tries to simplify such a difficult idea to implement but then goes on to further say it is not enough, while offering no further elaboration on how to make it feasible.
  2. joevonzombie

    joevonzombie Buried alive in Golgotha

    Sep 28, 2015
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Seriously, money is the least of the issue here, with a let us say 'fair' taxation.

    I admit, I have a rather radical stance on the issue. But if you ask me, why should someone earn more than 1 million dollar per year? I have yet to see some 'wealthy' person starving to death, from high taxes.

    If you ask me, I wouldn't be surprised if nations will come up with a law at some point, where we will see a very huge change to how much 'money' someone is allowed to posses or controll, as you know it's undeniable that a lot of money simply give you a lot of leverage and power, either trough lobyyism or simply bribery. In a world with endless resources, this kind of economic is simply not sustainable in the long run. And there is almost no democratic process behidn it or any kind of checks and balances.

    Who knows? Maybe in 50 or 70 years people will say, ok we have to take away the rights of a minority, to make sure that peole can actually have a decent life or maybe it will be a scenario, where you have to make sure that millions of people won't die due to the actions of a 'few' super rich people and institutions.
  4. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    As I have talked about before. Can the rich afford more taxes? yes. The issue here is the rich simply offset their increased taxes onto the average Joe, or slash hours, or funnel even more money into tax havens, etc. Second, as I have also talked about already, even if we were to have some magical way to get the rich to pay more taxes without offsetting costs somewhere else, it simply would not be enough. That is why Bernie HAD to implement an across the board tax raise along with the employee side tax. Bloated government, at least in the U.S., ALWAYS hurts the middle and poor the most and bloated government is exactly what people like Bernie Sanders love so much.
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    That's just what I believe, but the magic wand at some point will be simply put, the rage and riots once the system crashes for good. And than, as I said, it won't be about how much money you have, but how fast you can run and hide and particularly how well.

    But people often think, I am a bit of a lunatic for saying that, as they can not imagine it to happen in our societes. But I would say, well history is rather on my side. Societies can and DO colapse. And if that happens, it often ends in very violent uphevals. What comes after that? I have absolutely no clue. But I honestly I do not fear the right wing, even though I hate them the most. I actually fear 'my' side, the left extemists here.

    Who knows how long it might take, maybe another 20 or 50 years? But I have no doubts that if we continue with our CURRENT path, that a colapse is inevitable.

    Don't get me wrong, but I will never understand you ... this isn't meant as insult by the way.

    I often get the feeling you agree AND disagree with me at the same time on the same topic.

    I am telling, more taxes to the rich. But that can't be done! The rich just "offset their increased taxes onto the average joe". Then I say, the US is an oligarchy! For exactly that reason ... and I get neaaaaahyaaaaay! It isn't cuz joe plebe can vote!

    Well ...

    The point I am trying to make is that when you're looking at the mechanics at play here, globaly we are heading to an oligarch society. THe fact that you can vote in Germany or the US, has little effect on that matter - we don't vote 'globaly', but people and organisations with enough money, make global decisions, like international banks, corporations and super-rich individuals. 80 People have as much wealth like 1/3 of the worlds population or something. And even in Germany and the US, money plays a VERY huge role in politics.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  6. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    I seriously get the feeling here Crni that you are essentially, demanding that the U.S./ the west, undergo a revolution. I ge the feeling you are using the word, 'oligarchy', synonymously with 'tyrannical', or 'despotic', or 'totalitarian'.

    However, just because the rich have an inordinate amount of influence over government, as opposed to Joe Plebe, does NOT mean we do not have a system of checks and balances. This does not mean Joe Plebe has no way to influence political positions that you have brought up.

    If I were to go by your definition, most, if not every, country on earth is an oligarchy. The rich HAVE ALWAYS, and WILL ALWAYS, have an inordinate amount of influence over politics. It is the nature of the beast and no amount of whining is ever going to change that. Even in the case of REVOLUTIONS, the leaders were also either rich, or had rich benefactors, that helped pave the way for said revolution.

    Only in the fact that it was a very different time and the suffering that people were undergoing in SOME nations, was bad enough to warrant a revolution. This is hardly a reality for the U.S. or the west, in general.

    I mean we did have the American Revolution but that was more of a secession than an actual revolution. It wasn't as if the American people wanted to overthrow the king and replace him with Washington.

    Take the U.S., for example, even during the Great Depression, we never experienced anything along the lines of what happened in Czarist Russia.

    I rather think we would adapt, as science and technologies progress will inevitably, 'bring us there'. I even agreed that having a robotic work force would very realistically, bring about some type of a UBI to alleviate the unemployment.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Where is this system of checks and balances with the super rich?

    Well, I can only repeat my self ad nauseum. The data is there. The path we currently have is clear. Changes have to be made if we want to avoid certain outcomes. It's really that simple. Nature doesn't care if we 'can't' do them fast enough - besides, we can but that's a different discussion. We either adabt, or we have to deal with the consequences.
  8. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    Well, Joe plebe did elect Trump, it is not like Trump said, "Hey I have money, I want to be president, so it will happen.' Also, the rich do not like to increase the minimum wage. That would mean the minimum wage increase would not happen had the rich had such power as you describe, but prop 206 went through in Arizona. The rich usually do not want government interference in healthcare but Obama ram rodded the ACA through. There are many things the rich want but it doesn't mean they get them.

    No offense, but you really do sound like those leftist extremists who think that behind the government, a bunch of rich, white folks, secretly rubbing their hands with evil intent, are running the show when that simply isn't true. Yes they have more influence than the common Joe but no where near as much as you would believe.

    One of the MAJOR problems both parties have, is extremist pandering and fear mongering. I know that both parties are guilty of this but I am focusing on the left for this discussion. As explained and backed up with numerous links in the 'Trump Wins' thread, nobody likes those loud mouthed lefties who try to make themselves sound smart by using buzzwords like, 'class conflict, oligarchy, revolution, and wealth distribution'. These folks have no idea it makes them look like absolute idiots. As I said before, you folks outside of the U.S. want to know why socialism has such a negative connotation in the states even though the average American doesn't really have a problem with things like social security or Medicaid? It is because of fools like Jill Stein and Bernie Sanders. There is a reason why Bernie and Jill had the young and naïve vote and not much else. This is one of the primary examples of liberal elitism/smugness that got trump elected. Their constant need for attention through dramatic tantrum throwing does nothing for their cause.
  9. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dozy northern git

    Nov 22, 2009
    Just because Trump got elected doesn't mean that the whole thing isn't without plenty of behind the scenes shenanigans. Even Hitler and his party got into parliament through legal elections, that don't make subsequent events ok. US elections have always been rife with problems, and the amount of money in US politics is skewing actual democracy in a big way.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  10. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Uh, actually, Hitler didn't. He was appointed because the government thought, "Oh, this radical weirdo is popular with a lot of scary people. This will calm things down."

    PALPATINE was elected.

    Hitler? No.

    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well, everyone lives in his own bubble, me included. But when you look at all the shit that has been uncovered in the last 70 years, from 1945 up to this day, is it really THAT(!) unthinkable that you have think tanks out there with the intention to try any form of influence that is possible? There have been whole organisations created with only one intention, to 'sell' neo-liberal ideas to the popoulation. We have those even in Germany, and they also have such catchy names like The New Social Market, throwing bullshit around and funding stupid studies. But when you look at who's financing it, you will often find large corporations behind it for example.

    I am not saying rich People = Illuminaty. But money, simply buys you votes. That is not ALWAYS true, but it certainly isn't that wrong either. Beacuse this has a lot to do with air time, marketing, surveys etc. And that's not everything. We're not just talking about votes, that's just the surface, beacuse you can not controll the population. Not with just throwing money at it. But you can controll politicans. Why do so many people hate lobbyism? Sure not just because of the name. Corruption has become a serious threat to democracy in the last decades. And to denny that, is naive if not outright dangerous. Where is all this resentment against Washington and the elites coming from? Beacuse people very well realize, that it is about money these days, not about who votes what.

    To Quote Ronald Dworkin:
    An example worth mentioning is Public financing of both elections and forums for public political discussion, without which sensible public politics is unlikely to flourish. When politicians are beholden to their constituents for essential campaign funds, and a very unequal distribution of income and wealth obtains in the background culture, with the great wealth being in the control of corporate economic power, is it any wonder that congressional legislation is, in effect, written by lobbyists, and Congress becomes a bargaining chamber in which laws are bought and sold? “

    Or let us look at what Jimmy Carter said about it:
    “It violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or being elected president. And the same thing applies to governors, and U.S. Senators and congress members. So, now we’ve just seen a subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect, and sometimes get, favors for themselves after the election is over. ... At the present time the incumbents, Democrats and Republicans, look upon this unlimited money as a great benefit to themselves. Somebody that is already in Congress has a great deal moreto sell.”

    Ther is also some study about the subject

    Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.

    In English: the wealthy few move policy, while the average American has little power.​

    I mean seriously, look at the political landscape, where the Democracts and Republicans are now. The Reps are so far on the 'right' side, that you need the 'Democracts' to act as Republicans. It doesn't matter who you vote anymore! As like Hillary that fucked wrench would have been sooooooooo much better than Trump. She's not a Democrat in my opinion. She never was. Sure, she would have been less of a douche and acting more Presidential for what it's worth, but she would have fucked up the American people as well, she is a neo-liberal bitch that sucks on the tits of Wall-Street and Trump isn't much better, as we can see trough his policies, not the buillshit muslim ban and the wall, that's just useless rhetoric. No, the repeal of Healthcare which is one giant tax cut for the rich, the cuting of many social institutions like the idea to remove meals-on-wheels, cuting on EPA so some rich fucks can drill for more oil, more investements to the military, which in the end actually means, more money to military contractors, and not the soldiers. Is that what the American people want? Is that what they REALLY voted for?

    Let us say I give you a bucket of bullshit on one side and horseshit on the other. It's a choice, true. But only a cynic would call that a democracy.

    I mean seriously now, if even Southpark makes jokes about that ...
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017 at 2:27 AM
  12. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003

    Hindenburg and Von Papen offered the chancellery to Hitler, he actually lost the vote.

    @Crni Vuk

    Ok, the rich have a disproportionate amount of influence in the halls of government compared to the common plebe. How has this been any different throughout history then? You act like this kind of stuff just came out of nowhere when it has been happening since time immemorial. Pretty much anyone who obtained power throughout history, in ANY nation, was either rich or had rich backers and eventually got rich through their position.

    As I said, even with COMMUNISM, the elites were STILL running the show while essentially delegating the lowest levels of management to the most ignorant plebes.

    So again, my previous argument still stands. If you use 'oligarchy', in the same manner with despots and dictators, it would be incorrect to do so. If you are simply saying the wealthy have more influence in government, I never disagreed with you, I merely said this has ALWAYS been happening and will continue to happen. Whether it was with a monarchy, or communism, capitalism, etc, it has always been the well educated, upper crust of society that has had the responsibility of leadership. The reasons are many but it usually boils down to those who WANT power, will do what needs to be done to GET it. Even Bernie Sanders was willing to pull a Lenin, not to mention selling his soul to the democrats, to try and win. Sanders may not be considered super wealthy but he is also a far cry from being middle or lower class.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017 at 5:47 AM
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Good thing, that I didn't say any of those things then.

    Look, I am not saying politics was never about 'Money' in the broader sense. But seriously, things have become a hell of a lot worse when it comes to that. Just. Look. At. Trump. Blind trust? My ass. A fish rots from the head down.

    This becomes even more apparant when you're looking at the disparaty in income and wealth between the population, it was never as high like today. When you take the average american and the average rich people from the 1920s, to the 1950s and today. The difference, just from the numbers, is even larger compared to medieval times.

    You can also do surveys you know, on how much people 'trust' their government - I am not talking about lunatics, the average people, how much they trust their senate and how many people actually 'vote' and take part in the democratic process and compare that to the past, like 50 or 100 years ago. And well, people are loosing more and more faith in the democratic process. And this evolution, is not strictly limited to the US either, but it happens also in Europe.
  14. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dozy northern git

    Nov 22, 2009
    I wasn't talking about the chancellery.

    As for getting money out of politics, there are many countries in Europe that have plenty of legislation concerning limits to campaign funding etc. More needs to be done but at least some countries are trying. It's as if the US is proud of it's oligargy while at the same time pointing it's finger at other nations and calling them un-democratic and then bombing them.
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Imagine if we would be talking about a nation in Africa or South America here, everyone would probably ridicule them, for their twitter-addicted President and the shitty budgeding and everything they do and how corrupt their Senate is and how little of a 'democratic' nation they actualy are.

    But since we're talking about the US ...
  16. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    @Crni Vuk

    People have always bitched about the government, this is not a new thing. You are simply not going to please everyone. That does not mean that the democratic process is failing us and we need REVOLUTION. Again, dramatic much?

    You talk about surveys or polls about dissatisfaction with the democratic process or government? Well let me already state that polls are enormously flawed, something you have said yourself on occasion, at least, when it fits your argument.

    I am always hearing about wealth disparity with you Crni. So what exactly do you want? Besides the same old story about 'free shit, on a massive scale that I have already pointed out would hurt the middle and lower classes the most, via job loss, cuts in hours, across the board tax hikes, prices going up for the consumer, etc.. I mean seriously, in the states, it is just another buzzword like Todd Howard and IMMURSHUN.

    @CT Phipps

    The whole issue is Crni is saying that the democratic process is failing and I simply must disagree. Is it perfect? I will be the first to say no. But it sure beats whatever else is out there, like massive government over reach for example.

    I mean, euro socialism works because they do not have to PAY out the ass for a standing military. The population in many European countries are a whole lot smaller to boot. Then you have the cultural situation to think about. There is no surprise that the refugee crisis is starting to take a toll on the governments over there. 'Free shit', can only be sustained if the population is manageable.

    I was saying to Crni that despite his love of the word 'oligarchy', the rich do not control the government. I cannot say this enough. They DO have a disproportionate amount of influence in government but AGAIN, this has happened throughout history. Those who work hard at getting power to make change, GOOD or BAD, will always be the one who get it. Joe Plebe is happy enough to vote but not everyone is cut out to be a politician.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017 at 9:20 AM
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Let's cut some more health care and meals on wheels for coal miners and a tax cut for the rich then ...
    Yep. Your democracy is working perfectly.

    The only hope is that the Senate will not approve Trumps budged plan.

    Democracy my ass. You have a president that lost the popular vote, says that millions of 'legals' voted against him - without any proof - and believes in conspiracy bullshit, while handing out money to the military while reducing any social security.

    You have a so called 'billionair' as president and his cabinet is full of milionairs. What more do you need?
  18. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    What did I just say? I never once said democracy was perfect here.

    Also, one shitty election and, "Oh my god, the whole democratic process is a sham". 'Why can't America be good and just learn how to be awesome like us euros with our socialism? Democracy must be a sham'. The president is making some shitty decisions and, 'democracy is a sham'. Bernie lost so obviously, 'democracy is a sham'. I mean wow, just wow.

    SWAT police have some assault rifles, Kevlar (well they have always had Kevlar), some fancy looking helmets for better head protection, launchers for SMOKE/TEAR GAS grenades, etc, and the occasional APC, and now they are the same as military. Black people getting gunned down like dogs in the streets. Shooting blacks is an American past time. Trump is Hitler. Illegals getting deported is RACISM. Hey look, I think I sound smart when I say stupid stuff like 'woke', instead of using the proper term, 'awake'. Seriously, what the fuck is up with the left man? This is some serious soap opera quality drama here.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017 at 6:42 PM
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yep, just one shitty ellection ;).

    How was Bush jr. doing again ...

    Yes, I am sorry that I have to tell you this, beacuse I actually LIKE Americans, but I do not like AMERICA (anymore), since you're slowly becoming a very strange kind of society, where freedom is celebrated without understanding it.

    Look at your whole privatized prison system, on top of many other questionable areas, and ask your self if that is actually worth of a democracy and society that calls it self free.

    The US, has stoped of being a democracy a long time ago, at least in my opinion. And yes, sadly Europe is in some parts following that US idea, we usually are very late on catching up with the US. But hopefully there will be more resistance here against this kind of politics and the errosion of the democratic society.
  20. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Ninja Lurker

    Oct 27, 2003
    @Crni Vuk

    As in this monumentally shitty election with both incredibly bad choices, absolutely, this has been the only one. No other election I have seen before has been this bad. I backed McCain back when he made his run. Before that, I backed Bush even though he wasn't the best choice, but he was no Trump. The recount situation was stupid but the parties were both intact.

    A privatized system saves tax payer dollars. Prison reform is a whole other bag of worms that we can discuss with later.

    TBH, it sounds like any system that doesn't acquire the CrniVuk seal of approval, means the system isn't working. It certainly sounds like, if we do not do things the, 'European way', our system is not working. To me , that sounds incredibly arrogant to totally discount American culture and expect us to do things euro style or else.