2012 American Election (Presidential and otherwise)

First, I never said I was experiencing hyper inflation. It's a totally different thing from inflation, which IS happening NOW. However, hyper inflation is something we're heading toward if we continue printing trillions of dollars and injecting it into the economy. And it will happen overnight. The stock market will crash much harder than 2008 and the next day a loaf of bread will cost $100. This has happened many times in the last century, most recently in Zimbabwe.

Also, I'm going to tell Sanders and everybody something that might blow your minds. Statistics and percentages on a website are the furthest thing from reality. It's like the Baghdad Bob for economists. They mean very little. You can show all the numbers you want but it doesn't change what's happening here on the ground. Until you live and breath it yourself the whole argument is a waste of my time.
 
If it ain't on Fox news it must be wrong!!!!

He is right though, Sander. Facts and numbers are useless on such people. you gotta remember they think global warming is a lie and you should really fear the possibility of being possessed by THE DEVIL!!!
 
irrelevant, his campaign promise was to reduce the deficit by half, not raise it by almost 5 trillion.

You pretending my refute to your argument is irrelevant, is in itself irrelevant, because you being in denial and thinking wishfully does not make your point correct.

Promise or no promise, you don't measure Obama's success through your' own metric, look at the rest of the world, look at the facts. India, south America and China are growing, but the rest of the world is in stale mate.

You agreed with me that Obama bailing out the auto and banking industries was a good thing, yet you also criticize him for over spending?

By your own logic it would have been better if Obama did not introduce a stimulus package because he failed to predict a colossal collapse in the banking industry, because he made an arbitrary promise about the budget, and the banks should have collapsed for the sake of a promise.

Why don't you write government policy yet?

irrelevant, his campaign promise was to get it to 5% or under.


Again, as much as you think typing 'irrelevant' over an online forum makes the facts change, it does not.

If David Cameron, for example, promised to cut spending by X, and then England was invaded by Y, promise X would understandably be compromised.

Like wise, if a NATO commander says an Afghanistan pull out will occur in 2014, and one hundred thousand troops are killed tomorrow, the promise will be compromised.

Promises are swayed by reality, something you dont know much about apparently.

you missed what it was, it introduces a TAX on people who do not have insurance through their company ( because they do not qualify ), or cannot afford it. or are illegal immigrants.

Oh cry me a river. "boo hoo socialist Communist anti Christ Barrack HUSSEIN Obama is raising taxes to fund his left wing agenda! Innocent poor people all over the country who can't afford medical treatment are being provided affordable healthcare! What next, REDISTRIBUTION? COMMUNAL FARMS? THE END OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION? THE END OF THE WHITE ESTABLISHMENT!!!????"

my mistake, it was in 2006 not 2002. and if you think voting against raising the deficit cap is a good thing, you are unaware of the consequences. there are no grammar issues there, you just do not understand the meaning. there is a difference. failing to raise the deficit cap would absolutely crash the global economy. it would make the 2008 global recession feel like "the goold old days".

Yes. I do not understand your meaning. Your arguments exist on a higher level of intelligence than that on which my own brain functions. All praise the Master brain, all hail the genius.

dont you mean obama is? that was his campaign promise. or do you feel politicians should not be called out on their bullshit when they spew it?


No, I don't mean Obama is. I mean it is you who is being boring, the most intelligent an charismatic leader the West has known since Churchill, and your good self, are hard to get confused with one another.

No I don't believe politicians should be accountable, in fact I'm in favor of a Trotskyist dictatorship.


EDIT: grammar.
 
Mad Max RW said:
Don't be an imbecile. Television is for children. I don't even know why I waste my time here among children.
"If you are unable to attack the ideas, attack the people instead" ~Debating For Dummies
 
Sander said:
Besides that, higher inflation would not actually be a bad thing, as it would decrease unemployment (real labor costs go down temporarily), would discount private debt (one of the biggest issues facing the economy) and would give capital a reason to (re-)invest, as capital loses its value over time.

In theory that does sound good but in reality how is a man going to feed his family for a year while the action takes effect.

I know how mad max fells i'm seing the same thing happening in my corner of the world. The statistics says we are not experiencing inflation but that means very little to the man that can't provide for his family with his honest pay.

Dude don't leave because someone responded immaturely.
 
Mad Max RW said:
Don't be an imbecile. Television is for children. I don't even know why I waste my time here among children.

Strike one. Calm down.

This goes for a lot of people here. This election wasn't *that* important, Obama and Romney's policies lined up on many key points in the economy, and the US economy is factually not under any direct risk of hyperinflation or being anything like Greece or Spain. The only real political issue the US is facing now is if the House will work with the President, because realistically the two parties want similar economic stimulus policies, if widely different social policies.

Sander is providing facts why things aren't as bad as they may seem. If your best counter-argument is "well, the facts aren't, what's, like, really real!" and the only arguments you can bring up is personal experience, then maybe you should put on a tinfoil hat and go somewhere else. This isn't FOX News or MSNBC, facts speak louder than loud voices here.

donperkan said:
The statistics says we are not experiencing inflation but that means very little to the man that can't provide for his family with his honest pay.

No one denies this. But you're conflating micro-reality with macro-economics. They're not the same thing. You can not make claims about the state of your nation's economy based on your own personal experience, just like a nation's economy being strong does not mean every single individual living in the country is well-off. Even when the economy was booming there were jobless and homeless, so it being booming meant very little to them. That doesn't mean it wasn't booming.
 
All americans, regardless of wage, need an i-phone.

That is all.

Which candidate is going to put the I-phone on my table?
 
Mad Max RW said:
First, I never said I was experiencing hyper inflation. It's a totally different thing from inflation, which IS happening NOW. However, hyper inflation is something we're heading toward if we continue printing trillions of dollars and injecting it into the economy. And it will happen overnight. The stock market will crash much harder than 2008 and the next day a loaf of bread will cost $100. This has happened many times in the last century, most recently in Zimbabwe.
I'm going to post a very simple fact here: the USA is not Zimbabwe and those economies are not in any way remotely comparable. A good comparison would be, say, Japan in the early '90s. It's an instructive example, and one that not surprisingly supports my argument.

Again, you are consistently repeating tired old Austrian economics cliches that have been debunked thoroughly and consistently. And, most importantly, every bit of data on the current recession disagrees with your premise. A premise that you, most importantly, cannot actually substantiate in any way. Go back through your posts and try to find any evidence for your assertion that there will be hyperinflation. Your reasoning consists of "They're adding money, this means hyperinflation!"

Moreover, inflation is not some kind of tipping point phenomenon. It won't be "well now we've crossed a line so this completely modest inflation will suddenly turn into hyperinflation now!". No, if the current path would cause hyperinflation in the long term we would expect to see high levels of inflation now. Instead, we are seeing very low levels of inflation. In fact, that is what all the models that you are basing your predictions on say: we should see high inflation now that the Fed is pumping money into the economy, and that will eventually lead to hyperinflation. That's the model that your story is based on (implicitly, whether you realize it or not). That model has been disproved by reality.

Mad Max RW said:
Also, I'm going to tell Sanders and everybody something that might blow your minds. Statistics and percentages on a website are the furthest thing from reality. It's like the Baghdad Bob for economists. They mean very little. You can show all the numbers you want but it doesn't change what's happening here on the ground. Until you live and breath it yourself the whole argument is a waste of my time.
This is the biggest load of crap. We are talking about macroeconomics. That is, changes to an entire economy on a very large scale. If hyperinflation is going to occur, it is not going to occur 'on the ground' (by which you mean: to me). No, it's going to occur on a macroeconomic scale. And that means that the best way to analyze what is happening and what is going to happen is to look at -- boom -- macro-level statistics. *mind blown*

Now, you could argue that the statistics I'm citing aren't the right statistics. You could try to come up with counter-evidence, or a reason why the fact that inflation is at a modest level by every single measure you can think of is not relevant. But "my personal cost of living is rising" is none of those things.

By the way, all the models you're citing, like the idea that printing money in a liquidity trap will cause hyperinflation (it won't, and hyperinflation is a very very hard thing to create)? Those ideas are all based on macroeconomics and macroeconomic concepts, substantiated by statistics. Trying to substantiate them with what you're experiencing 'on the ground' may make sense intuitively, but it's a typical Austrian logical fallacy. It's like pretending that running a government is like running a business. It's not, and different rules apply to what you experience than to what happens on a larger scale.

Another point: the fact that your cost of living is rising (in your perception) does not mean that the cause is a) macro-level inflation or b) printing money. A lot of different factors go into that.

What is a waste of time is you thinking that your own personal experience can be extrapolated to an economy of 300 million people. That's not just a waste of time, it is completely and utterly false.

It is a neat little fictional bubble you've created, though. A bubble where you can dismiss all evidence because it's meaningless, without actually explaining why it's meaningless. A bubble where you don't actually need to substantiate your own claims because I don't "live and breath it" myself, as if somehow that makes the facts disappear. A bubble where somehow, statistics aren't accurate. Not because you can actually provide any evidence that they're not accurate, but because they don't fit with the narrative you have created for yourself (or rather, Austrian economics has created for you).

tl;dr: if you're going to make predictions about macroeconomics, don't claim that macroeconomics is bullshit and ignore any and all evidence.
 
Brother None said:
But you're conflating micro-reality with macro-economics. They're not the same thing.

I agree those two terms should be kept apart, as in don't slap macroeconomic statistics in my face when i'm struggling to pay the bills because the prices for gas, electricity, bread, milk, meat... have all gone up at the same time.
 
donperkan said:
Brother None said:
But you're conflating micro-reality with macro-economics. They're not the same thing.

I agree those two terms should be kept apart, as in don't slap macroeconomic statistics in my face when i'm struggling to pay the bills because the prices for gas, electricity, bread, milk, meat... have all gone up at the same time.

*polite golf clap*

Don't be redonkulous. Sander and Kharn will explain to you, with charts, graphs, and statistics that you really aren't seeing the prices for all your staples double while your paycheck gets smaller.

Additionally, they'll explain why you'd be better off in this situation with higher taxes.
 
donperkan said:
I agree those two terms should be kept apart, as in don't slap macroeconomic statistics in my face when i'm struggling to pay the bills because the prices for gas, electricity, bread, milk, meat... have all gone up at the same time.

Sander didn't bring up macroeconomics, Mad Max did. Sander only replied to argue why his macroeconomic views on hyperinflation and gold standards are wrong. He didn't reply to someone griping about his personal life with macroeconomic facts, he replied to claims about hyperinflation, which is a macroeconomic factual thing (that is not going to happen).

If you guys just want to talk about personal problems, fine, but then don't make macroeconomics claims, and don't call someone "immature" for responding to your macroeconomic claims with macroeconomic facts.
 
The US should just stop the charade and let the Belgians openly run things there too.
Too much money wasted on this election nonsense.
 
threep, you must be batshit insane.

you cannot excuse him for failing to meet almost every one of his campaign promises and then say they should be called out on the same.


Sander:

like i said, he is confused. he is taking anectdotal experience in his micro-economics of his local and extrapolating them to the macro level where the micro is not reflected in the macro.

if his "state" or locality printed their own money, they may be in a situation of hyper-inflation. his state or locality is not printing or managing the money flow, the federal government is. in all reality his micro experience is nulled by the macro scale.

his micro experience is driven by something OTHER than what he thinks. if it was, then it would be evident in the macro scale, which it isnt. which means his micro experience is NOT driven by macro factors, if a micro-economy is severely out of flux from the macro-economy, then there is an influence he is not taking into account driving his micro experience in such contrast to the macro level.

he may be seeing hyper inflation at the micro level, but it is not driven by macro events.
 
TheWesDude said:
threep, you must be batshit insane.

you cannot excuse him for failing to meet almost every one of his campaign promises and then say they should be called out on the same.


large_barack-obama-laugh.jpg
 
Before people bash those numbers, 38% promise kept is actually pretty damn good considering the US's situation and the hostile Congress since 2010. Add up the compromise statistic, and it's 55% of his promises either kept or compromised, with only 18% outright broken, less than 1 in 5.

If nothing else, he's better than me :P
 
i am talking about the promises he made that if he failed to deliver on would not seek a 2nd term.

not every promise he made during his campaign.

and he only delivered on 1.
 
TheWesDude said:
i am talking about the promises he made that if he failed to deliver on would not seek a 2nd term.

not every promise he made during his campaign.
TheWesDude said:
threep, you must be batshit insane.

you cannot excuse him for failing to meet almost every one of his campaign promises and then say they should be called out on the same.
TheWesDude said:
failing to meet almost every one of his campaign promises
TheWesDude said:
every one

If you don't mean it, don't say it.
 
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