88 year old ex-SS soldier charged with 3 wartime murders

Hah, The killing of civilians has been classified as a "Military Objective" in warfare throughout history Sander.

And who are you to say that joining the SS equated to "Yes, i get to kill civilians at my leisure"?

You don't take into account the distorting nature of political indoctrination and coercion at all, and it makes your observations flawed.

If your past family ancestors decided to join the SS in the Netherlands at the time because at the time they thought it was the best choice in the long run, wouldn't that pose questions?

Were they in the right state of mind to do that?

Were they doing what they thought was the "Good"?

Yes, the facts that their environment gave them equated to that being the logical choice. Under the system that was dictating the Netherlands at the time, what was classified a war crime? If they weren't political science savvy one could say that he had no knowledge of all the events that were transpiring at the time. You make it sound as he had a macrocosmic view of the events as they were being acted out.

And your opinions of "What is and what isn't" was not the common consensus of the regime in power at the time.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
Hah, The killing of civilians has been classified as a "Military Objective" in warfare throughout history Sander.
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Deathsquads aren't the same as scorched earth policies and the like.

But you know why this trial is being held? To determine whether or not he is guilty.

Prosecution isn't the same as conviction. You seem to be losing sight of that.
Dopemine Cleric said:
And who are you to say that joining the SS equated to "Yes, i get to kill civilians at my leisure"?
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Good job reading the background there. He's not being prosecuted for being a member of the SS, that wasn't ever illegal.

Dopemine Cleric said:
You don't take into account the distorting nature of political indoctrination at all, and it makes your observations flawed.

If your past family ancestors decided to join the SS in the Netherlands at the time because at the time they thought it was the best choice in the long run, wouldn't that pose questions?

Were they in the right state of mind to do that?

Were they doing what they thought was the "Good"?
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Except that I'm not talking about that at all. Whether someone personally thinks he's doing the right thing hasn't been relevant in law since Hammurabi.

Dopemine Cleric said:
Yes, the facts that their environment gave them equated to that being the logical choice. Under the system that was dictating the Netherlands at the time, what was classified a war crime? If they weren't political science savvy one could say that he had no knowledge of all the events that were transpiring at the time. You make it sound as he had a macrocosmic view of the events as they were being acted out.
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No, I'm saying the dude was part of a deathsquad, he killed civilians as part of that deathsquad, and he deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for that. Whether or not his actions were war crimes or not will be determined in court.
 
Sander said:
Deathsquads aren't the same as scorched earth policies and the like.

But you know why this trial is being held? To determine whether or not he is guilty.

Prosecution isn't the same as conviction. You seem to be losing sight of that.

Good job reading the background there. He's not being prosecuted for being a member of the SS, that wasn't ever illegal.


Except that I'm not talking about that at all. Whether someone personally thinks he's doing the right thing hasn't been relevant in law since Hammurabi.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nYx8iX9oX8&feature=related[/youtube]





:eyebrow:

*Watches sander drink and babble to himself off a cliff shouting at the birds.*

Air hasn't been relevant since Lincare.

The SS were forced to do illegal things and it's a stigma to be associated with them.

I was delivering my opinion on the idea of convicting him, not his prosecution.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
The SS were forced to do illegal things and it's a stigma to be associated with them.
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This has to be the single stupidest thing I've read in this entire thread (though several posts are close, with "It was a long time ago, get over it" at the top).

Read up on history. They weren't forced to do anything. Membership in the SS was completely voluntary and everything they did they dod if their own volition.
 
To the "befehl is befehl" argument -
there is not a single case known, that a wehrmacht or SS soldier who refused a execution command received a drawback from this.

Not a SINGLE.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nYx8iX9oX8&feature=related[/youtube]
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:clap: :D :clap: :lol: :clap: :D :clap: :lol:

That is so fucking brilliant. I really had to clench my legs or I would have peed my pants.

Just WOW. And awesome work on the music, it just fits perfectly.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
This has to be the single stupidest thing I've read in this entire thread (though several posts are close, with "It was a long time ago, get over it" at the top).

Read up on history. They weren't forced to do anything. Membership in the SS was completely voluntary and everything they did they dod if their own volition.
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oscar-hoffman.jpg


Gust: "What are you, a fucking infant?"


Last I heard this man wasn't an officer. Do you know what that means? That means if his CO doesn't get the results he expects out of his NCO's, who don't in turn get what are expected of enlisted personnel, they get black listed. They could be shot on site, transferred into a hellhole "Stalingrad/Poland", or hanged as a traitor.

Also, I don't know where you get this shit about the SS being known as a "Death Squad" when people enlist into it. It's a legitimate force within the 3rd Reich as a paramilitary unit as a personal guard to Adolf Hitler. It had battlefield arms like the Waffen-SS, and ect. And the dude might have joined the SS so he would be conscripted into a shitty Volksgrenadiers unit and freeze to death.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
Dopemine Cleric said:
The SS were forced to do illegal things and it's a stigma to be associated with them.
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This has to be the single stupidest thing I've read in this entire thread (though several posts are close, with "It was a long time ago, get over it" at the top).

Read up on history. They weren't forced to do anything. Membership in the SS was completely voluntary and everything they did they dod if their own volition.
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Lol "OK".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
Also, all the Dutchies on this forum seem hell-bent on having him hang. Funny.
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Not really. I just haven't seen a convincing argument why he should not be prosecuted. He murdered people a long time ago, fled the country and is now finally being prosecuted for it. That's the basic fundaments of law at work there: it has to be consistent across the board. You can't excuse someone because "it was a long time ago" or "them was different times" unless the law stipulates that you should. If the law finds he can not be held responsible for his actions than fine, but that's for a court case to decide, and for that prosecution has to start first.
But heck, if you start making random exceptions than what good is the law?

Also, you guys are going to calm down and stop the sniping or I will start handing out strikes and vat this thread.
 
Not random exceptions, an analytic review of due-process. If the civil and common law systems can be improved they should be. The law isn't "Set in stone" even though it appears to be.

The idea of throwing someone away whilst trying to be more progressive in law applications is contradictory.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
If the civil and common law systems can be improved they should be.
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Sure. But until they are, they should be applied.

Honestly, Dopemine, could you stay on topic? While everyone is debating whether or not this man should have been arrested and prosecuted, you're turning to judging his conviction and whether or not the laws he is arrested under make sense (I fail to see how they don't, though, or do you disagree with Germany's "ill intent" statute of limitations?) Neither is really the topic here, y'know, but hey, it's easy to disagree if people aren't actually talking about the same thing.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
Last I heard this man wasn't an officer. Do you know what that means? That means if his CO doesn't get the results he expects out of his NCO's, who don't in turn get what are expected of enlisted personnel, they get black listed. They could be shot on site, transferred into a hellhole "Stalingrad/Poland", or hanged as a traitor.
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This just proves that you are completely ignorant of actual history.

Also, I don't know where you get this shit about the SS being known as a "Death Squad" when people enlist into it. It's a legitimate force within the 3rd Reich as a paramilitary unit as a personal guard to Adolf Hitler. It had battlefield arms like the Waffen-SS, and ect. And the dude might have joined the SS so he would be conscripted into a shitty Volksgrenadiers unit and freeze to death.
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And, again, you prove your ignorance.

Go read up on SS-Totenkopf.
 
Dragula said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf

Maybe you should read up, Grizzly. It was a military force that saw battle during Barbarossa not some death squad with sick men that ate babies and raped puppies.
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Yeah, because that's totally what Mikael is saying.
The fact that it saw action at some point doesn't mean it didn't act as a death squad later on. Just like the squad Broere was a part of.

Also, I'm fairly sure that Mikael is referring to this.
 
Dragula said:
They had to choose that or execution/prison, I don't see how that's really a choice.
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That's false, as I mentionend above.

there is not a single case known, that a wehrmacht or SS soldier who refused a execution command received a drawback from this.
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Treesnogger said:
Dragula said:
They had to choose that or execution/prison, I don't see how that's really a choice.
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That's false, as I mentionend above.

there is not a single case known, that a wehrmacht or SS soldier who refused a execution command received a drawback from this.
Click to expand...
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Eh, I'm talking about the criminals they recruited from deaths row that either enlisted or got executed in prison.
 
Dragula said:
Treesnogger said:
Dragula said:
They had to choose that or execution/prison, I don't see how that's really a choice.
Click to expand...

That's false, as I mentionend above.

there is not a single case known, that a wehrmacht or SS soldier who refused a execution command received a drawback from this.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Eh, I'm talking about the criminals they recruited from deaths row that either enlisted or got executed in prison.
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I don't see how Dirlewanger's devils in human skin can be compared to volunteers serving in the SS.

SS is arguably the most unambiguously evil organization in history.
 
Mikael Grizzly, read The Forgotten Solder by Guy Sajer.
(a bit controvertial, but all in all it seems to paint a fairly decent picture of what went on on the eastern front)

i fucking loathe nazis, Mikael, but nothing is every black & white, just varying degrees of grey...
 
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