A blow dealt to the US(Obama's) health care idea.

[Sander]

EDIT: BTW I didn't even mention the illegal alien situation, I can tell you from living years in a southern state that it absolutely has a tremendous impact.

You lived near immigrants! Your statistical evidence is overwhelming!

3) universal healthcare would also cover illegal aliens under all proposals for it in the US. there are a LOT of illegal aliens. it is a huge problem. much larger than most europeans realize. and you are just now getting a taste for it since EU forced open immigration on each country. it has caused a LOT of problems. just ask norway.

I love it when Americans pretend that Europe has no immigration. Please come over here and tell Wilders that, so we can get rid of that idiot, okay?

Also, I keep hearing that immigrants getting healthcare will cost everyone a lot more money.
Okay. So, if you know that, you wouldn't mind telling me how much more money this will cost. Or why this can't be counteracted with a simple system where people check to see if they have insurance bevore providing non-emergency care. 'Cause they're already getting emergency care anyway, right?

 

[rcorporon]

Also you'd think I'm used to it from watching US television, but its bizarre how many anti-universal healthcare arguments seem to hinge simply on misinformation.

Fear and misinformation are the modus operandi of the American right and Fox News... it's how they manage to keep the US populace blind and obedient.

 

[Shoveler]

LOL @ Sander.....

I don't just live near 'em, I live with 'em. I married one. Hah. What I was saying is the problem (cost) with treating illegals is more obvious around these parts. However, I don't think we should stop treating them either, catch 22?

Shov.

 

[victor]

How do you legally marry an illegal immigrant?


How do you kill that which has no life?

 

[Shoveler]

Good lord, reading Shoveler's posts makes me feel hopeless about any hopes for America.

I just want to say thanks Shoveler. I plan on using your writing as evidence at dinner conversations when people talk about why health reform won't succeed in america.

Simple, it's not that I think it won't succeed ever. Just the current incarnation seems not so great. The main problem I have is that they've stripped a lot of choices right out of the thing. This is a free market, choices are what I want. And so do most other americans.


@ Brother None, please don't turn this into a giant political flame. You can hammer Repubs if you want, but the election 2 days ago clearly shows even Dems do not approve of what the U.S. Congress is doing. A congress controlled by Dems. The American people as a majority, Dems and Repubs alike, do not approve of this incarnation of universal health care. This has been clearly shown.

 

[Shoveler]

How do you legally marry an illegal immigrant?


How do you kill that which has no life?

Easy you get married.

You fill out the paper work.

More importantly, send in the fees with the paper work. (Around $1000 at the time)

And if approved, 3-6 months later you have residency.

Then 3 years later you are eligable for citizenship. Assuming you don't screw up somehow, break the law and such.

I know, I know, being here in the first place was breaking the law, tell that to the government when they cashed my checks for the fees. (I know I said checkS with an S, separate fees for separate forms, and there were many)

It was a risk though, cause at the end of the day they could have denied it and I would be out a wife and the cash. Ouch.


@Sander, I know all to well the immigration problems of Europe. Several vacations there, Venice and Paris were a like in many ways. They both had middle eastern/indian dudes hawking wares in sidewalk near every tourist attraction. Have to say, it took a great deal of charm away from the whole experience. They were probably selling illegally, as there were no carts or anything, just blankets with dozens of purses.

Shov

 

[Sander]

LOL @ Sander.....

I don't just live near 'em, I live with 'em. I married one. Hah. What I was saying is the problem (cost) with treating illegals is more obvious around these parts. However, I don't think we should stop treating them either, catch 22?

Shov.

If it's so obvious, then what are the actual costs? If all you have to go on is your personal interpretation, then your argument holds no merit whatsoever.

Simple, it's not that I think it won't succeed ever. Just the current incarnation seems not so great. The main problem I have is that they've stripped a lot of choices right out of the thing. This is a free market, choices are what I want. And so do most other americans.

Go back to page 1 and read my post on why free markets don't mesh well with non-universal healthcare, please.

@ Brother None, please don't turn this into a giant political flame. You can hammer Repubs if you want, but the election 2 days ago clearly shows even Dems do not approve of what the U.S. Congress is doing. A congress controlled by Dems. The American people as a majority, Dems and Repubs alike, do not approve of this incarnation of universal health care. This has been clearly shown.

No it hasn't. In fact, the majority of the senate wants this to go through. The president was elected by a majority. All that would suggest clearly that, by proxy, a majority of the people want this to go through.

Also, no one in this thread is actually talking about whether or not the US people as a whole want that. That's not an issue in this argument at all, why are you attacking a non-issue?

Lastly, why are you ignoring all of BN's valid points (universal healthcare has lower costs per capita than the US healthcare system being the main one) and instead trying to attack him on some fictional political charge?

Also, don't double post, use the edit button.

 

[Brother None]

Brother None, please don't turn this into a giant political flame.

I'm not, I'm pointing out it's hard to argue when people elect to ignore facts when they're inconvenient to their argument.

You can hammer Repubs if you want, but the election 2 days ago clearly shows even Dems do not approve of what the U.S. Congress is doing. A congress controlled by Dems. The American people as a majority, Dems and Repubs alike, do not approve of this incarnation of universal health care. This has been clearly shown.

And this is relevant to anything said so far because...?

If you want me to stop "political flaming", address points rather than bringing in extraneous stuff. We haven't been talking political alignment or the will of the people, just calling people on this nonsense that universal healthcare is "more expensive".

 

[Shoveler]

Sander, I haven't tried to attack BN at all. And wouldn't do such a thing. If anyone is on the offensive it'd be you.

He mentioned Fox News and the Right and obedience and so on. Which affects things, but not needed in the conversation. Obama was elected due to most Americans wanting dramatic change. Many are rethinking that idea, Ted Kennedy a Dem, held that seat for 35 years, a Repub just won it. Repubs are by far a minority in that state. Have been for ages. How did he win? Luck? No, because people once again don't like the direction we are going.

As far as BN points, I stated repeatedly that if these things work for Europe that's great. And hadn't panned this a stupid or otherwise, even though I've heard things along the lines of ignorant Americans repeated a couple times in this thread.

This current incarnation of health care won't work for the U.S. If it was as clear as you say that Americans want this then why isn't it passed already? They could have a vote this afternoon and it'd be done and over with, but they won't make the leap, it'll cost the congress men and women their careers. Some have already given up.

Senator Dodd for example, Harry Reid can barely pull 50% right now in his home state, Ted Kennedys seat. The paradigm for good or ill has shifted again.

The problem is everyone is trying to compartmentalize everything, but the fact is almost all the items mentioned in this thread affect the out come. No one thing.

Shov

 

[Sander]

Sander, I haven't tried to attack BN at all. And wouldn't do such a thing. If anyone is on the offensive it'd be you.

You said "Brother None, please don't turn this into a giant political flame." You're implying that he's trying to do just that. That's attacking him.

He mentioned Fox News and the Right and obedience and so on. Which affects things, but not needed in the conversation. Obama was elected due to most Americans wanting dramatic change. Many are rethinking that idea, Ted Kennedy a Dem, held that seat for 35 years, a Repub just won it. Repubs are by far a minority in that state. Have been for ages. How did he win? Luck? No, because people once again don't like the direction we are going.

Again, irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

As far as BN points, I stated repeatedly that if these things work for Europe that's great. And hadn't panned this a stupid or otherwise, even though I've heard things along the lines of ignorant Americans repeated a couple times in this thread.

This current incarnation of health care won't work for the U.S.

Okay. Why not? You haven't given us any reasons why not. All you're doing is repeating that it won't work. You're dodging any points that are made and just repeating your statements.

 

[Brother None]

I stated repeatedly that if these things work for Europe that's great.

And I replied that your implication that somehow EU nations are "better" at dealing with government spending than the US is ludicrous. There's no inborn "government spending" gene we have and you lack. All you lack is experience, and that can't change until you switch gears system-wise.

He mentioned Fox News and the Right and obedience and so on.

No, I didn't.

If it was as clear as you say that Americans want this

Who said this, where? Who was talking about the American will before you brought it up? In other words: who are you talking to?

 

[Shoveler]

Dude is that all you want? That's easy, they want to tax us more, and people don't want to pay more. They've already voted to a tax increase to start this year, even though any real health care reform is 4-5 years away yet.

If congress could figure a way taxes stay more or less the same, then more people would be on board. But the moment they mention tax increases people say in their mind "no thank you" to what ever it is. They could be offering real estate in heaven, with guarantees and everything, we just need to raise your taxes 0.5% and it'll turn a huge chunk of people off at the word "tax".

People don't want their taxes raised, even for the betterment of everyone. We're greedy that way I suppose. Not to mention the perceived reduction of medical care that goes along with all of this, weather this will be a reality or not we will have to see if this passes.

Best answer I can give you. Americans in my particular situation would mostly give you the same answer. Polls the other day stated that as high as 65% of Americans don't want universal health care. Granted polls can be manipulated, but that to me explains the problems some Dems are having getting re-elected. Coakley shoud have taken Mass. easily, that truly astounded me that she didn't.

Shov

Edit: BN my apologies that was Rnscorp that said that.

"No it hasn't. In fact, the majority of the senate wants this to go through. The president was elected by a majority. All that would suggest clearly that, by proxy, a majority of the people want this to go through"

BN, Sander says it's states clearly here. Just for clarification. It's not so clear, some Dems are in Jeopardy of losing their seats, Dems that have been seated for many terms. To me suggests that Americans are changing their minds.


EDIT #2: Just for fun, a recent poll conducted stated that 48% of Americans would rather have Bush back......even I'm not that crazy. But that should give a little insight on how confusing things are right now.

 

[OakTable]

Also you'd think I'm used to it from watching US television, but its bizarre how many anti-universal healthcare arguments seem to hinge simply on misinformation.

Fear and misinformation are the modus operandi of the American right and Fox News... it's how they manage to keep the US populace blind and obedient.

The same could be said of the left wing. It's best to be a moderate.

 

[Sander]

BN, Sander says it's states clearly here. Just for clarification. It's not so clear, some Dems are in Jeopardy of losing their seats, Dems that have been seated for many terms. To me suggests that Americans are changing their minds.

In response to you, note.

Also, Americans hate taxes if it saves them money. Okay, cool. That just means the system won't get passed, not that it wouldn't work.

 

[Shoveler]

Sander, let me put it a different way. I don't have any hard numbers to work with yet, as it hasn't been passed yet, so bear with me. Let's say that instead of the 15% tax I pay now, it gets raised to 38-40% of my income, but all the health care is now no cost as time of service. (That officially saves me 3k a year in costs)

Taking that much of my income would destroy my life, I doubt I'd be able to stay in my home, my home is modest, I didn't get caught in a house I couldn't afford like millions of other Americans. But if a dramatic increase in my taxes were to take place I'd be out. I make 80k a year or so. Right now I pay 3k a year for health insurance dental and all. If my taxes were raised to 40% that's 32K a year, right now I pay more or less 10-12k, that kicks me out of my house, I'd wager that would kick a lot of people out of their houses. Even lowering the % of tax hike to 25%, still paying much more than before.

You made a comment about raising taxes saving us money, that perhaps even taxes being lowered again in the future. Usually doesn't work that way though, once the tax is in place, it stays in place, rarely does a tax ever get reduced, usually just increased. Just based off my being a tax payer for the past 20 years. Maybe it works differently in Europe though, if there is extra money here usually they just allocate it to something else, just not to the tax payer.

Doesn't seem like a lot of money saving going on here.

Shov

EDIT: BTW that's 3k a year for a family of 3. Not to shabby.

 

[Sander]

The system costs less money overall. You cannot possibly deny this.

So in what way, exactly, would you be fucked if this thing costs less money than you are spending now?

If you'd be fucked because now you'd have to make regular payments, how fucked would you be if someone in your family got seriously ill and required expensive medical treatment now?

Also, that big an increase is ridiculous and I have no idea where you're pulling that number from.

 

[Shoveler]

Cost less over all perhaps, but it will cost more for the upper and middle class.

In terms of someone in my family getting sick that's why I have comprehensive health coverage now.

Are you trying to tell me that the health care package they are trying to pass will cost me less than the 3k a year I pay now for comprehensive health care? I can guarantee you my taxes will be raised beyond 3k a year my friend. That's why people don't want it.

It won't pass. If it passes I'll send you a case of whatever crappy American Brew you want hah!

 

[Tagaziel]

Dude is that all you want? That's easy, they want to tax us more, and people don't want to pay more. They've already voted to a tax increase to start this year, even though any real health care reform is 4-5 years away yet.

No, not really.

This simply means that the money you pay the insurance companies for health insurance will simply go to cover universal health care.

And yes, it will cost less.

 

[Sander]

Cost less over all perhaps, but it will cost more for the upper and middle class.

In terms of someone in my family getting sick that's why I have comprehensive health coverage now.

Are you trying to tell me that the health care package they are trying to pass will cost me less than the 3k a year I pay now for comprehensive health care? I can guarantee you my taxes will be raised beyond 3k a year my friend. That's why people don't want it.

I'm not talking about the exact health package they are trying to pass, I am talking about universal healthcare in general.

Also, given that you are already paying 3K a year, how would you be in terrible trouble if the country would switch to a universal healthcare plan? Do you honestly think you're going to pay a lot more money than that on healthcare? If so, why? What numbers, exactly, do you have that would make you believe it would vastly increase your expenses.

The numbers you keep floating up as costs for universal healthcare are imaginary and not grounded in any reality I know.

It won't pass. If it passes I'll send you a case of whatever crappy American Brew you want hah!

I prefer Belgian.
Also, no one is arguing this. Why are you continuing to try to turn it into an issue of whether or not it will get passed, while you are the only one arguing that point?

 

[Shoveler]

Tag, what do you base that on, seeing as how no one quite knows any numbers yet?

Sander, btw, through the course of discussing with you and others today a thought occured to me. I think that another big reason why Americans are put off by the whole think is the lack openness, the idea of passing it into law seems more important than the details of it. Which no one really knows yet. But the details are what we should all know.


Find it hard to believe that it was cost less than 3k a year, 3k a year is quite cheap here.