A blow dealt to the US(Obama's) health care idea.

Shoveler said:
Tag, what do you base that on, seeing as how no one quite knows any numbers yet?
Here's numbers we have:
Any universal health care system in existence is cheaper per capita than the system the US has. Hell, *any* health care system is cheaper than the system the US has.

Also, I find it ironic that you bring this up after you've been citing imaginary numbers throughout this thread.

Shoveler said:
Sander, btw, through the course of discussing with you and others today a thought occured to me. I think that another big reason why Americans are put off by the whole think is the lack openness, the idea of passing it into law seems more important than the details of it. Which no one really knows yet. But the details are what we should all know.
Again - no one is arguing this. You are talking to yourself.


Shoveler said:
Find it hard to believe that it was cost less than 3k a year, 3k a year is quite cheap here.
It might cost more. I don't know, it might be more expensive for you personally, but you'd be an exception. The government isn't there for you personally, it's there for everyone. And for everyone, a universal healthcare system is much, much cheaper. For a variety of reasons.
 
Shoveler said:
Simple, it's not that I think it won't succeed ever. Just the current incarnation seems not so great. The main problem I have is that they've stripped a lot of choices right out of the thing. This is a free market, choices are what I want. And so do most other americans.

Whoa here's a clear problem. Most everyone you're arguing with is talking about universal health care. You are talking about the us health proposal.

I agree with you that the currently proposed us health reform is awful and not going to fix anything. But your fights with everyone here are about a much broader issue.
 
victor said:
Norway never has, and probably never will be, part of the European Union, so EU laws do not directly affect Norway. Neither will Switzerland. Also, Switzerland isn't Sweden. All clear now?

Norway is not a member of EU. We are however a member of the schengen cooperation. So we recieve alot of foreign workers. And we love it. Furthermore we are member of the EØS cooperation. Which means that we need to accept most EU laws anyway without being able to participate in the making of those laws. Lovely aint it? We do have the option to say not, but we have never used it because the Eu may smack us with economic sanctions if we do.

Seriously..poland and its workers is awesome for us. Sure there are some problems but the mayority of employers want the polacs. Good work ethics do the trick every time.

Now with regards to american imigration problem the solution is simple: If anyone comes in there without a social security number or an american or a valid visa. Treat them but with a guard outside the room. (then when they are treated send them through imigration) Ofcourse this is imoral from one viewpoint since they will then avoid that kind of healthcare and maybe die from it. On the other hand should one help criminals continue crimminal behaviour?
 
Simple,

Didn't realize I was fighting with anyone, just talking about an issue that's directly related to several other issues. Sorry ya'll see it that way. The thread title clearly is refering to the US proposal. So I don't feel I'm off topic at all.

I just don't compartmentalize everything so easily, part of my daily job is figuring out contributing factors. So I usually delve off in other areas, but it's all related.

I've said the the US is the most expensive currently. And the data Sander and BN have provided show theirs is cheaper. But you have to see that cheaper doesn't always mean better, more often than not it means worse, in this case it could be worse medical care (not to imply that medical care in Europe is poor, in fact in my experience it was exceptional). Note that I said could, not would. We just won't know. Medical care is something that I don't skimp on, and rushed legislation decisions that affect a country of 300 million are something I'm exceptionally leary of.

Sander, I was hoping Tag would provide numbers from his experience personally, so that I could have a better understanding of his stance. That is all, not calling him out or otherwise. I've been civil throughout, though you've kept acusing me otherwise. I'm just here to have a discussion like you all.

Shov
 
UniversalWolf said:
but the specifics of this particular bill combined with the blatantly corrupt, ends-justify-the-means way it's been manufactured are wildly unpopular.
Most everyone in the U.S. wants some kind of health care reform when they hear that our health care system (mostly privatized) is the most expensive in the world. They just disagree in how it should be reformed.

REFORMS:
Left-side: Bleeding hearts want everyone covered. Some doctors want a single payer system which would reduce paperwork and headaches.
Middle-side: Consumer advocates want insurance policies to be fairer and health care overall to be cheaper.
Right-side: Lawyer-haters want limits placed on malpractice lawsuits. Nationalists want to stop illegals from getting free health care via emergency rooms and government programs.

MONEY MAKERS:
Doctors, Insurance Companies, Pharmaceutical Companies, Medical Device Companies, and Malpractice Attorneys all make a whole lot of money with the way the system is currently configured. The combined factions make trillions of dollars (U.S.) several times over. They, their campaign contributions, and their lobbyists in Washington D.C. don't want any reforms that could jeopardize their own particular piece of the pie.

JOE PUBLIC:
The average voter in the U.S. has their health care covered by their employer (or is old enough to be getting Medicare). They think their health care coverage is pretty good, and it might be, or it might not be. They probably won't find out until they or someone in their family has an illness/condition require surgery, scans, or an extended hospital stay. Whether their current coverage is good or bad, they think it is good, and would rather keep the status quo rather than risk it on a system that might not end up better for them and might cause their taxes to increase.

CONGRESS:
Most people in Congress stick to their political ideals unless by doing so they would obviously risk campaign contributions (or personal favors for the really sleazy ones) or losing their constituents' votes (just the 10% that might vote the other way in the next election), which means they are always making deals and calculated risks and occasionally hopping on populism's bandwagon of anger just so it doesn't run them over.

Since the special election in Massachusetts, the smart Democrat voices are saying that they should just ditch the old giant legislative bill (since even for the left it was incredibly diluted so that it barely did anything, but had a hefty price tag and lots of pork deals attached). Rather they it would be more prudent to write new bills that would be smaller and specific enough reforms that they would get some bipartisan support and no one would think that one single bill would destroy the health care system as they know.

Professor Danger! said:
I have good health care. Screw the rest of ya'll.
The funny thing is that this attitude is both conservative and environmental, at least as long as all the sick, poor people die off quickly and help slow down the overpopulation of the planet.
 
TheGM said:
Because that there Communists manifesto is why! We done don't want no Socialist IDEALS in this here country! And I sure as Hell don't Want Government getting involved with my social security!

I thank the people of massachusetts for making up for the 60 years of Terror under Ted Kennedy by putting a republican(what ever his name may be) in his Seat!

bahahahah well said sir. I'm not certain many saw your sarcasm though. :lol:

OakTable said:
Because adding a trillion dollars on top of your trillion dollar debt is CIVILIZATION.

You know, the ignorance of so many in America is almost amusing albeit the overwhelming wave of depression and despair hits me right before I laugh I find myself upchucking... Then I look at my health care bills. I have full coverage, yet due to a medical emergency I was rushed to the nearest hospital... I should have checked to see if my health coverage would cover my hospital visit while rearing in pain as my appendix near burst; but, thats what I get for being a pussy I guess...


Oh and OakTable, you might do some research on other "socialized" medical systems throughout the world. For instance, did you know Britain started their universal health care coverage after WWII ended? Note that most of England was leveled from persistent Nazi air strikes, millions dead, collapsed economy probably was a little worse compared to what we in the USA currently face.

Healthcare is a human right. So what if we socialize it? What is the difference? Right now we have a privatized social health care system that is clearly corrupt and vial. Do you despise your police, fire, or other "socialized" systems?

Why is it that I'm up to my ears in medical related debt just to have the most common medical procedure in the world performed on me? My own mother and father should not have to go without health care because they can not afford it. Well over 10% of the USA is now unemployed, is it fair that those people whom were laid off now have no medical coverage? That they have to go hopelessly into debt should they get sick?

I suppose Cain was right...we should not be our brothers keepers.

Here in America its survival of the fittest, never mind our forefathers intentions, never mind our founding documents and never mind religious teachings ahh, let the bells of civilization ring.
 
Brother None said:
Crni Vuk said:
I wish people would jost stop to mention socialism everywhere as soon it has something to do with "free".

I guess in the US socialism has a different definition then over here.

Stop trying to kill SARAH PALIN BABY you ass!!!!

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
- Sarah Palin

Yes. I see. Thank you BN you opend my eyes. Sarah says so ... so it must be true. I am evil. :P
 
I love the part where everybody hates on something even though they don't know why!

Take a relative of mine.

Hates the idea of Health Care reform and the State Run Health Care....The very Same type of Health Care System the State of massachusetts uses and it happens to be the one he lives in. Not because of How it is run or anything, but because of Illegal Aliens. Why? because they will be covered! I kinda doubt that. And besides they go get hospital bills that Tax payers will pay anyway.

But when it comes to the blind frothing mouth anger for not knowing a reason to be pissed in the first place I see every day.

Makes me think of what Nero said, and I agree.

I wish Americans had but one Face so I can smack it.
 
Maphusio said:
Why is it that I'm up to my ears in medical related debt just to have the most common medical procedure in the world performed on me? My own mother and father should not have to go without health care because they can not afford it. Well over 10% of the USA is now unemployed, is it fair that those people whom were laid off now have no medical coverage? That they have to go hopelessly into debt should they get sick?


this is something i can speak of from experience.

early december i started having abdominal pain on a teusday. thought it was not something bad at all. wednesday it was spreading and it hurt to sit down.

by thursday it was pretty bad. thursday night i went to the emergency room. no insurance, unemployed.

by friday morning at 7am i had my surgery. woke up friday at like 3 pm. they were very scared because i had lost ~90% lung function and they said if i got pneumonia i would most likely die. i wasnt allowed to leave the hospital untill monday morning.

i have recently gotten my bills.

pathologist evaluation of surgical specimen ( appendix? ) $105
ct abdomen with contrast $219
ct pelvis with contrast $219
post op office visit $109
laparoscopy, surgical, appendectomy $1783
2 hours anesthesia $1320

total cost?

$3755

that is a lot of money, yes. but if i had a job it wouldnt be that bad. would be much easier if i was married.
 
I dont get americans!

Since im European i dont understand how someone will get into a debt insane like that to get worse medical conditions.

Do you think i have time to go to the public health center? No, i work for a living, only retired people TRY to use it...

PLus why cant people understand that europeans get overly taxed for something they dont use... Do you think that when your child gets sick you dont go private?

we still buy insurance, the only diference is its mandatory, insuficient and anyone that can go private goes.

With that bill you are saying u want big daddy Gov, and we know the results of BigGov dont we? oh ofc not, the only history before 2000 people know is that there was a big war and the leader of the bad guys was hitler and its now a good ofense call (his name),

Mad Max RW said:
Sander said:
Mad Max RW said:
Ever hear of the term "you get what you pay for"?
Americans don't. Your healthcare system is the most expensive per capita, yet it isn't close to being the best.

Then explain why all the rich foreigners and world leaders keep coming here for treatment.

Nah they go to Cuba, havent u heard it has the best medical system in the world. ^^

TheGM said:
Ratty said:
I don't get Americans. Do they enjoy the idea of having to take a second mortgage every time they fracture a thumb? Or are they a nation of übermenschen that cannot get sick or injured? Or maybe they are so patriotic that they would rather be forced into bankruptcy by a minor case of pneumonia than deny DoD another line of billion-dollar stealth jets which will in all likelihood be used to smart-bomb five-dollar tents?

Because that there Communists manifesto is why! We done don't want no Socialist IDEALS in this here country! And I sure as Hell don't Want Government getting involved with my social security!

I thank the people of massachusetts for making up for the 60 years of Terror under Ted Kennedy by putting a republican(what ever his name may be) in his Seat!

Dont u think you guys should get a third party or something? republicans democratics, its all getting mixed up...

As the beacon of freedom in the world try to get back intro a republic like you once were and give hope to the world again... :/
 
Change is hard.

Seriously, this is all I can see from this. Everyone will tell you verbally that they want change, but it's hard to change people's behavior even if it's good for them. There are lots of obese people that continues to shovel food down their throat even though they know it can kill them, but they can't stop themselves. As a culture, NAmericans tend to have short attention spans and that means their future me usually lose to their current me. In order to lose weight, you need to fight the temptation for that chocolate cake and go work out, so you can have the big pay out in the end, a fit body/looking nice, less health problems, etc. But in a culture with lots of instant gratifications, you want pleasure NOW, and you don't really want to suffer/endure for it. Therefore, your current self loses to your future self, and you ate the chocolate cake instead of going to work out.

Health care reforms don't seem that much different, but there is a growing trend that is fairly interesting that some of you may want to pay attention.

Let me state that, personally, I think health insurance is a bad business to be in despite how much money they seem to make. As a profit generating business, you want lots of healthy people paying premium rates to make money without too much claims. But the young and the healthy usually won't get that much coverage or any coverage at all. The people that usually pay for premium coverage usually knows something might be up and they want to be covered for it, but that means bad business. If the only people paying you premiums are those who might be or already sick and making lots of claims, you'll lose money in the end since you can't find enough healthy people for your cost overall. How do you get out of this? Trim the fat. The cheaper the procedure, the better. And there are the corporate health insurance that some get to enjoy, but that's hedging the bets too. You give them one size fits all health coverage, and hope that there are enough healthy people to pay for any serious claims due to accidents or what not.

So, where might this lead you?

American health care professionals are probably some of the best paid in the world, and that costs A LOT of money. It might not surprise some to hear that there are some health insurance companies offshoring your health care. Off the top of my head, there is a growing business in India, Thailand, and sometimes HK, TW, and China for Americans doing none immediate life threatening procedures. This is win win for the insurance companies, since they can save so much money by offshoring, the plane tickets and hotels stays are chump change. The patients might be happier too. They get to stay in a 4-5 stars hotel and there is no wait time for them. They are private patients that paid top dollars (comparatively to locals) to get treatment, so they get personalized service, 4-5 staffs on call and any concerns they have are immediately addressed. So, isn't this great? I can see it now, the next big thing in the US will be off shore health care (and why not, what isn't offshore these days?), no wait times, no bargaining, no trying to go for a better/more expensive doctor hospital, and you get a free vacation and the insurance companies save money to boot!

So...., what could be the problem then? Nothing really, as long as you don't mind hopping a plane to Thailand, Singapore or whatnot for your surgery, I don't see the issue. But I can guess some of you might be able to imagine the implications of a such future/industry. What would this mean for the American health industry? There would probably be lobbying, crying foul, questioning foreign hospital credentials, and basically some borderline classicist remark that these foreign doctors can't be as good as them, that's why it's so cheap. Doctors are professionals who have protected their livelihood by continuing to raise the barrier of entry to their profession in order to show authority. What they might not know is a lot of these foreign doctors were trained in the US, UK, Japan, Canada and all that to start with, and that's why they can paid top dollars in their home country.

What could all this mean in the end? I am not sure, since I am just pointing out a very probable possibility in the future for Americans. The thing is though, how many Americans can accept offshore health care? If not, then what's the solution? The current system isn't working, and that much is obvious. Americans pay a truckload of money each year on health care and thousands of dollars per patient each year is spent on paying for insurance companies/and hospitals' bureaucracy. Doesn't the Americans deserve better if they are paying that much? Why shouldn't government handle your health care? Isn't that what you pay governments to do? To take care you? As for the possibility of government bureaucrats trying to save money by "killing" the patient..., what do you think private insurance companies are doing now? I thought Americans don't like big business? I would think there would be more oversight for government employees than any private companies are willing to police themselves.

Anyway, my 2 pence, peace and pray you don't get sick. :)
 
TheWesDude said:
Maphusio said:
Why is it that I'm up to my ears in medical related debt just to have the most common medical procedure in the world performed on me? My own mother and father should not have to go without health care because they can not afford it. Well over 10% of the USA is now unemployed, is it fair that those people whom were laid off now have no medical coverage? That they have to go hopelessly into debt should they get sick?


this is something i can speak of from experience.

early december i started having abdominal pain on a teusday. thought it was not something bad at all. wednesday it was spreading and it hurt to sit down.

by thursday it was pretty bad. thursday night i went to the emergency room. no insurance, unemployed.

by friday morning at 7am i had my surgery. woke up friday at like 3 pm. they were very scared because i had lost ~90% lung function and they said if i got pneumonia i would most likely die. i wasnt allowed to leave the hospital untill monday morning.

i have recently gotten my bills.

pathologist evaluation of surgical specimen ( appendix? ) $105
ct abdomen with contrast $219
ct pelvis with contrast $219
post op office visit $109
laparoscopy, surgical, appendectomy $1783
2 hours anesthesia $1320

total cost?

$3755

that is a lot of money, yes. but if i had a job it wouldnt be that bad. would be much easier if i was married.



bahahah my overnight surgery cost 33,000 US dollars because I had insurance. My total cost so far is 2,000 USD. Look at what having insurance saved me! YOU TOO CAN BE JUST LIKE ME!

Creepy part is you and I had our health issues on almost the same effin day, mine was on the 2nd of Dec.
 
I've heard from a few sources about insurance companies paying doctors to not treat patients with too expensive conditions even if they are covered by their insurance. Having to fight over a year legal battle to get cancer operated doesn't sound fun.
 
Maup, yea, i am highly suspect that that is all i am getting charged because i have no insurance.

i wasnt even charged for the bed for the 3-4 days i was using it.

i highly suspect the cost was much higher.

but then again, i think i have adhesions as sometimes when i stretch i can feel tightness in 2-3 spots near bottom of my stomach area/abdomen.

plus i have a 2-3 inch wide strip on the lower thigh going from my knee to 3/4 of the way up my thigh that is constantly tingling and numb.
 
Maphusio said:
Oh and OakTable, you might do some research on other "socialized" medical systems throughout the world. For instance, did you know Britain started their universal health care coverage after WWII ended? Note that most of England was leveled from persistent Nazi air strikes, millions dead, collapsed economy probably was a little worse compared to what we in the USA currently face.
One joking sentence and I get a rage-filled rant on the ethics of healthcare and why everyone is entitled to it? Jeez. I really DO have bad luck.
 
Loxley said:
Seriously..poland and its workers is awesome for us. Sure there are some problems but the mayority of employers want the polacs. Good work ethics do the trick every time.
So pollacks are great but you hire swedes? Awesome system.
 
TheWesDude said:
Maup, yea, i am highly suspect that that is all i am getting charged because i have no insurance.

i wasnt even charged for the bed for the 3-4 days i was using it.

i highly suspect the cost was much higher.

but then again, i think i have adhesions as sometimes when i stretch i can feel tightness in 2-3 spots near bottom of my stomach area/abdomen.

plus i have a 2-3 inch wide strip on the lower thigh going from my knee to 3/4 of the way up my thigh that is constantly tingling and numb.

I too get a strange twinge in my abdomen if I twist in an awkward position. Technically after an appendectomy you have a little nub where your appendix was.

Prior to my surgery, I was having dietary issues (no appetite, other fun things) I'm happy to say those symptoms are back... And I'm afraid to go to the specialist I was seeing because my insurance does not want to cover me seeing that particular doctor. So its 400 USD just to see him, let alone anything else... The thought of going to the Dr. is not very palatable to me at this point in time.


OakTable said:
Maphusio said:
Oh and OakTable, you might do some research on other "socialized" medical systems throughout the world. For instance, did you know Britain started their universal health care coverage after WWII ended? Note that most of England was leveled from persistent Nazi air strikes, millions dead, collapsed economy probably was a little worse compared to what we in the USA currently face.
One joking sentence and I get a rage-filled rant on the ethics of healthcare and why everyone is entitled to it? Jeez. I really DO have bad luck.

Sounds like you've learned your lesson when it comes to text based environments then?
 
Maphusio said:
I'm afraid to go to the specialist I was seeing because my insurance does not want to cover me seeing that particular doctor. So its 400 USD just to see him, let alone anything else...


Actually, I have the same issue with going to the dentist. It's not covered (at least not as much) by insurance here. I've had this sharp pain through a tooth when I bite down for a few weeks, and I think I've broken off a piece. But it can end up being pretty expensive, so I have my doubts. I'll probably go, but damn. Having to pay $100+ and get insulted because of an assumption that I don't brush my teeth, meh.

But I know it'll get worse if I don't go, and besides, costs won't go nearly as high as what you could end up going through.
 
I just hope the State starts to invest in research like the private companies, or we would be out of new medicines (altho most produced are shit just to make money, many breakthroughs, in diagnostic procedures also, come from the private sector).
 
Zeal said:
I just hope the State starts to invest in research like the private companies, or we would be out of new medicines (altho most produced are shit just to make money, many breakthroughs, in diagnostic procedures also, come from the private sector).

I'm not sure extra funding should be tossed at pharmaceutical corporations largely on the basis that they do produce "shit" to make an exuberant amount of money; nevermind the side affects or the lack of research in a viable cure over a semi-viable treatment.

I think funding should be warranted on a product by product basis. If the US government truly wants a functional pharmaceutical industry they must do a better job of encouraging and nurturing the industry in the areas of growth that will benefit the people it represents.
 
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