A blow dealt to the US(Obama's) health care idea.

Mad Max RW said:
Then explain why all the rich foreigners and world leaders keep coming here for treatment.
Because the best doctors can make the most money in the US, and hence live there. The top end is probably the best in the world. It also comes with a price: access to the top end is restricted because of price, and as a consequence the overall healthcare quality (ie the quality of service the average American receives) is not near the top.

Also, you ignored that your perceptions of European healthcare systems is vastly distorted.
 
Yeah, most halfway decent states have some form subsidized/mandated/tax write offs anyway for med. insurance. If you're waiting around for the Feds to take care of you, you're already fucked and you just don't know it.

UniversalWolf said:
but the specifics of this particular bill combined with the blatantly corrupt, ends-justify-the-means way it's been manufactured are wildly unpopular.
This was a very shady deal.
Bad partisan politics.

As usual.
 
For real, this health care bill had been bastardized so much, and still had litle likelihood of getting passed. This election didn't change that.
 
Sander said:
Okay. So the question is whether Oaky (or Americans in general) really hate taxes so much that they'd rather spend more money on an inferior product individually than get a better product for less money through taxes.

Of course.

There's two options: either have more people spend less per person and a smaller amount of money in total, or have less people spend more per person and a larger amount of money in total. Gotta be the latter. 'COZ THAT'S THE AMERICAN DREAM.

Meanwhile, you and your filthy communist subversive ways are just trying to institute death panels to KILL SARAH PALIN BABY.

America. America never changes.
 
Mad Max RW said:
Still, I'd rather have our current healthcare system than a European style universal system where you get treatment several months later and you have little or no choice about your doctor.

nope its not the European style, thats our style of public healthcare system. :|
 
30 million people don't have health coverage in the US. More or less 10-12% of the population. Now what our glorious leaders want to do is scrap the health care for the other 270 million Americans to make life easier for those 30 million whom don't.

Makes great sense eh? Anyone stop to think that those 30 million don't want to be forced to pay for insurance? Anyone stop to think that the other 270 million don't want to be forced to pay for those 30 million? We have several options for free health insurance now. That's right, FREE. Medicaid is available in all 50 states, you pay nothing, you also have to prove you make next to nothing too, to be eligable.

Anyone (Sander I'm looking at you) whom thinks that adding 30 MILLION PEOPLE to a health care system will be CHEAPER is living in fantasy world. Those numbers don't add up, AT ALL.

My wifes sister is married to a German guy. His taxes are crazy high, but hey, we have free health care. And the health care is nice, but it's all about choices, universal health care will cost mostly everyone more, I could spend half or less of what I'd be paying under universal health care to get my own private insurance then why would I be interested in universal health care?

Two choices:
One: The government thinks that they can take better care of you than you can on your own. Because we're all to idiotic to do it ourselves. (Dems)

Two: Hey look ma, I can get insurance on my own, WITHOUT any government crutches. Astounding. (Repubs)

If universal health care being doled out to the masses works in Europe fine, I happen to think that the individual could do it cheaper. And we get to keep our over priced and bloated military budgets hah! had to throw that one in.

EDIT: BTW I didn't even mention the illegal alien situation, I can tell you from living years in a southern state that it absolutely has a tremendous impact. That 30 million uninsured is probably closer to 50-60 million uninsured in reality. Most of which would now be covered under health care reform. Not good for the rest of us.

Shov
 
Shoveler said:
Anyone (Sander I'm looking at you) whom thinks that adding 30 MILLION PEOPLE to a health care system will be CHEAPER is living in fantasy world. Those numbers don't add up, AT ALL.

And yet the statistics we've shown prove that the US pays most of all countries in the world per capita, in taxes, insurance and bills. If you have the same system and encompass 30 million more people, then yes, it'll rise. Yet countries with universal healthcare, a different system, pay less per capita. That's not speculation, that's fact, a fact you conveniently ignore. This statement:
Shoveler said:
And the health care is nice, but it's all about choices, universal health care will cost mostly everyone more,
Is false. Which kind of collapses your whole argument.
 
UniversalWolf said:
Finally, why do you care whether we join your notion of the "civilized world" or not? I've never understood that.

Uhm cause its better ? I mean if they get a new system that is working better like the way its now every person with a sane mind should want to see that for the US work. European or not. No one should want to see others suffering. But I am just saying.

And if the US population is doing well that also helps Europe and the world in the end. Well talking about health care here. People would start eventually worry less and thus think more about the issues around them.

UniversalWolf said:
Crni Vuk said:
they should eventualy consider to spend less on military.
I think this movement is growing. Personally, I'd like to withdraw from most of our alliances and go back to pre-WWII isolationism, but I don't think it's practical.
At least one good message. I am neither a supporter of the NATO.

OakTable said:
Getting me to pay more taxes is like getting me to chop my thumb off; I'd never do it. I might support it if the economy magically stops sucking, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Some Europeans pay almost as much for taxes. But thats not cause of our health care system.

Actualy issue we have in Germany right now is that many health care companies start to offer less treatment for more money. As joke we call it the "american circumstances". They explain a raise in dues (and less treatment ...) with higher costs but at the same time also increase the salary of the managment and are not ready to reveal their income. This was some issue in the media when it was discovered that the health care companies made aprox 10% more earnings but didnt shared this with their costumers.

Mad Max RW said:
Then explain why all the rich foreigners and world leaders keep coming here for treatment.
Enough people come to Germany and Europe in general as well for correct treatment. Good specialists are around here as well. Heidelberg for is known around athletes for example to have some of the best treatment (at least in Germany) and many good doctors. Plastic surgery and the technology regarding artificial limbs are also pretty good in Germany.
 
1) universal health care leads to lower costs per person

2) medicare runs at an administrative cost of like 5% of total cost, and the lowest overhead for private insurance is like 12-13% and the average is much closer to 20-25%.

3) universal healthcare would also cover illegal aliens under all proposals for it in the US. there are a LOT of illegal aliens. it is a huge problem. much larger than most europeans realize. and you are just now getting a taste for it since EU forced open immigration on each country. it has caused a LOT of problems. just ask norway.

4) if the government expanded or created a "medicare" like insittution to cover everyone for universal health care, it would require a raise in taxes. either rolled into medicare, rolled into FICA, or else a new tax category in addition to the seprate tax for medicare.

5) one of the biggest reasons why the US debt is so horrible is because of decades of politicians promising and doing a lowering of our taxes. lower taxes hurts us if it does not lower national debt. the closest we have gotten to lowering our national debt was clinton which was wiped out by bush jr. and now obama is not doing anything to help.

6) any politician who is publically seen to be raising taxes would have a very low chance of getting re-elected. they want to get re-elected. so they do everything they can to lower taxes. universal health care would raise taxes. if obama passes universal health care, it would be very hard to get re-elected once the costs are actually seen by the individual.


as i said... americans as a whole would not be opposed to socialist health care.

the reason why its such a problem to get passed is that it would lead to higher taxes. and people having been told for so long that we deserve lower taxes is in direct opposition to that ideal.
 
Actually it strengthens my stance. We are the most expensive (a fact I haven't denied btw), under universal health care we will be even more so. The US government doesn't tend to handle money well, nor most health care. Look at Walter Reed, that is an example of government health care, war veterans in rooms with leaking roofs and mold. Disgraceful. Something like this may happen at a private hospital, they are also held accountable. Those Walter Reed patients have anyone to hold accountable? Just good old Uncle Sam, which means no one, just pass the buck.

My brother in law pays near 40% taxes at the moment, a large chunk of which goes to health care. I pay roughly 15%. As do MOST Americans, not all granted. I'm firmly middle class as is he. Now are you telling me that paying 25% more in taxes is cheaper than finding private insurance? I can find insurance much cheaper than 25% of my annual wage....

Like I said, universal health care is fine for Europe, just not the US at this time, maybe in the future they'll come up with a comprehensive plan that will benefit all, not just the 30 million with out. A large part of that 30 million probably choose not to have health care. I know several people making what I make, that don't have health coverage, and they can definitely afford it. It's just about those darned choices again.

Your statistic about universal health care in Europe fail in one major regard in my opinion. It's doesn't factor in the US governments ability to muck things up royally. European governments tend to manage money better. Notice I say tend, not all, all the time, but most, most of the time.

Shov
 
Shoveler said:
We have several options for free health insurance now. That's right, FREE.
Bingo. If you have a pencil and a heartneat you can get free health care just about anywhere in the States.



Hello.

Is this thing on?



Free healthcare. My kids get it. My wife gets it. Free health care in America. Let me restate that - Healthcare is available for free. No Co-pays. No premiums. They'll even drive you to get your hangnail looked at if you don't have transportation. Preventative care, prescritptions, all that.
And if you do pay out of pocket, most if not all of it is a tax write off anyway - You get your money back!

If you chose not to pay for insurance because you'd rather spend your money on cocaine, whores and tattoos. You can do that too!

I'm not asying there isn't room for massive reforms to make it more efficient and better. Open to more competition for the comsumer's sake. I'm all for that.


And how about y'all work on your national dental systems, you're scaring the shit out of our kids you snaggletoothed bastards. :P

Shoveler said:
Look at Walter Reed
Look at FEMA, look at Social Security etc. etc. If you're depending on the Feds to hold your hand and wipe your ass for you, you're a really, truly, royally screwed. Regardless of cost.

Who in their right mind would entrust the Feds with their health and retirement?
 
TheWesDude said:
EU forced open immigration on each country. it has caused a LOT of problems. just ask norway.


Norway never has, and probably never will be, part of the European Union, so EU laws do not directly affect Norway. Neither will Switzerland. Also, Switzerland isn't Sweden. All clear now?


The healthcare system in Sweden isn't that good anymore. In some areas, you sometimes have to wait 6 months to see some specialists, which isn't very good. I know for instance that healthcare is a disaster in Northern Sweden. Some people want to revert to the 50% tax we had before, but I don't think that'd make it better. Pumping more fuel into a broken engine doesn't fix it.

We just need some kind of reform, and increase tax efficiency. Norway has a better healthcare system, and they have less taxes (although they have oil money, not sure if they actually use it that much though).
 
TheWesDude said:
1) nobody believes it can be passed without a net increase in taxes. if they could somehow make it a reality without increasing taxes, it would gain a lot of ground. of course nobody with any brains thinks you can have socialist health care without increased taxes. lower taxes is more important than decent health care.

Yes, health care would be just that : socialization and mutualization of risk. You don't socialize the risk, you pay the price. The few that get lucky have the privilege of paying less taxes, the few that don't and lose a finger, go bankrupt as the icing on their cake of unluckiness.

So, I just see that americans as a whole prefer to take big financial risks in the great fear of the red menace of mutualization. The bottom line is just that a lot of them will end up fucked.

I'd gladly make a parallel about a jungle on one side, and the civilisation on the other side, where each people watch each other's back.
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
And how about y'all work on your national dental systems, you're scaring the shit out of our kids you snaggletoothed bastards. :P

That's England you're thinking of. Most countries have fine dental care.

Shoveler said:
We are the most expensive (a fact I haven't denied btw), under universal health care we will be even more so. The US government doesn't tend to handle money well, nor most health care.

The stance that somehow the US government is inherently more incompetent than EU governments at handling money is preposterous.

As is saying universal health care will be "even more so" expensive when every statistic in the world points the other way is untenable, if your only proof is a myth of EU efficiency that does not exist.

Shoveler said:
My brother in law pays near 40% taxes at the moment, a large chunk of which goes to health care. I pay roughly 15%. As do MOST Americans, not all granted. I'm firmly middle class as is he. Now are you telling me that paying 25% more in taxes is cheaper than finding private insurance? I can find insurance much cheaper than 25% of my annual wage....

'coz those 25% are just for universal health care? Doi? You pay a lot more for everything in many EU countries, in taxes, and you get a lot back.

Also you'd think I'm used to it from watching US television, but its bizarre how many anti-universal healthcare arguments seem to hinge simply on misinformation.
 
I thought the Great American Retort was based on misinformation... Look how foreign policy and evolution theory are being handled.
 
Good lord, reading Shoveler's posts makes me feel hopeless about any hopes for America.

I just want to say thanks Shoveler. I plan on using your writing as evidence at dinner conversations when people talk about why health reform won't succeed in america.
 
I wish people would jost stop to mention socialism everywhere as soon it has something to do with "free".

I guess in the US socialism has a different definition then over here.
 
Socialism is bad, mkay?

I was wondering though, maybe with universal health care, less people would die from gunshot wounds, so people would get off the back of their ridiculous gun laws too! Win win.

I fail to see the point how universal health care is a bad thing for anyone, but whatever, they are only digging their own grave. I'll enjoy having my next surgery at no cost.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I wish people would jost stop to mention socialism everywhere as soon it has something to do with "free".

I guess in the US socialism has a different definition then over here.

Stop trying to kill SARAH PALIN BABY you ass!!!!
 
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