A video on the Brexit and why the UK should leave.

[Crni Vuk]

Nooohooo? ... What it shows is that you have no clue in what kind of democracy you're actually living in, if you're a member of the UK.
Let us assume this referendum was about abolishing the constitution, human rights and changing the UK to a dictatorship with Nigel as absolute leader for life time and they win by 51%. Would you still think the Parliament has to respect the decision of the people? I mean it would be the clear majority, right? Or would you not agree, that it might be whise to yeah ... think again about it if that is actually the correct decision in the long run. This is one of those things where usually a very close friend or family member would come in and tell you, that you should sleep a night over it. If it was your mother she would probably simply slap you and tell you to come to your senses. And in the end you're lucky that you didn't got a tatto on your forehead.
Seriously, go and read something about direct democracy and a parliamentary democracy, and why this referendum has no legal binding action. That doesn't mean that it should be simply ignored. This whole thing has already done more damage to the UK than the EU ever could. And if the politicans in the parliament have any spine, they will simply swallow it, and say, sorry! We fucked up, we will think again about it in 2 years and ignore this right now. And I doubt that you would see riots everywhere.

It's a nice little problem that the UKIP and those idiot populists created for their own nation ...

 

[Throatpunch]

She is full of shit, she cant veto anything.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No of course not, but it shows that this thing isn't over yet and that it might have very long lasting consequences. And I thought this whole idea of the Brexit was to keep the unity and gaining indepedence and all that stuff ...

 

[SuAside]

Well this is where we have to agree to disagree then, because I think we can. Or well we have so far.

Currently, if foreign support disappears, the only thing we can do is home defense & air policing.
We will not have the ability to do foreign peace keeping due to lack of logistics power. We will not be able to do meaningful force projection to enforce our foreign policy.

That in itself can be fine if you're going for non-interventionalism and isolation.

Possible? I guess you have a point here, no one knows what might happen in the future. But, I would say that's really not the most likely situation.

One of Trump's points is to stop allowing the EU countries to free ride in NATO. He's not wrong.

One where we would have to actually use military power to keep the US in check?

That's never the aim. That would be impossible with our culture. The americans are used to spending huge amounts of money on defense. We could never mobilize enough political support to even dream of reaching parity with the US, let alone keeping it in check.

The biggest danger for Europe right now, comes from the inside, not the outside. As we have seen nicely with the Brexit and what damage populism has done to the EU ... and how much does military power help us here? Nada. Zilich. Nothing. But how much would have money in critical sectors do? Like healthcare, creating jobs, stability, education, research, in other words reforms? I would say a lot more than what ever if the UK or Germany is now owning 5 more submarines or a cariers or what ever ...

No one is talking about getting more subs and investing in aircraft carriers. Those are force projection tools we don't actually need.
But we do need a sustainable army budget. Atm, it's just not there. We're watching our armies decay year after year and we're doing nothing.

What use are all your morals and high standard of living if eventually we won't be able to defend ourselves. While our european culture is very much "post-war", we still face threats who see war as valid tools for furthering political agendas.

So keep voting on an issue until you get the result you want?

This crap is often why countries with legally binding referenda are actually requiring 66% (or sometimes 75%) majorities for any vote to have power of law as well as a minimum of the elegible voters.

 

[Throatpunch]

No one is talking about getting more subs and investing in aircraft carriers. Those are force projection tools we don't actually need.
But we do need a sustainable army budget. Atm, it's just not there. We're watching our armies decay year after year and we're doing nothing.

No, the EU projects itself using soft power not hard power. What we need is a defence force to protect against and destroy terrorism, and potential invasions.

 

[Crni Vuk]

No one is talking about getting more subs and investing in aircraft carriers. Those are force projection tools we don't actually need.
But we do need a sustainable army budget. Atm, it's just not there. We're watching our armies decay year after year and we're doing nothing.

I absolutely agree with you on that. However, I am not sure if that is a problem that can be fixed simply by a higher budged when I feel that it is more a problem of competence and corruption. At least in some cases. I can only talk for the German military here. But looking at the last discussion about the G36 and the discussion of its impracticallity as assault rifle for the German army, then I think this is not a question of budged, but who decides when and what equipment should be issued to the troops. And there are many of similar sometimes smaller sometimes bigger cases.

Again, I will take the only army as example that I know at leat a bit. The German military has currently a strong presence in Afghanistan and some troops on the Balkan. And this is already the most we can do. However, I don't see it directly as defence of Germany, and Afghanistan was in my opinion a totally uncessary situation. We got draged in to it. So it could have been avoided. And it should have been avoided. my intention is not to start a discussion of what ever if the war in Afghanistan was correct or not.

All I want to say is, when we don't have the military for it, we might never get in a situation where we have to use them. That doesn't mean that this approach is the correct one for everyone. I see why the US needs a stronger military than Germany. And Germany in particular has followed a very different kind of politic in the last 60 years. Particularly when it came to the military. And I think the results are that Germany is today a lot more safer, than France or the US which have been major targets for terrorist attacks but which are also known to regularly mess around with other regions. So there is that.

Again, I am not so much disagreeing with you. I just don't know if more money or a bigger budged is going to fix the underlying issues.

What use are all your morals and high standard of living if eventually we won't be able to defend ourselves. While our european culture is very much "post-war", we still face threats who see war as valid tools for furthering political agendas.

Which isn't supported by the current evolution though where war and major conflicts are on a decline. It's to early to say if we are on a path where we as humanity are geting rid of wars, but it seems at least to get in that direction. So naturally the people see less and less reasons for it.

I just think military matters are always complicated in the sense that you have huge interests behind it. It is a very profitable buisness after all. And that means it has a lot of lobbyism. What happens when you let it simply go wild, can be seen in the US right now, which spends like no clue 2 or 3 times the budged of all European nations combined while not beeing really safer than us.

 

[DarkCorp]

Whenever a government bureaucracy the size of the SU collapses, there is going to be problems. People were suddenly thrust into lassez fare economics when they were used to living with very little in a command economy. Of course some people will take advantage.

In his speech, Putin flat out says that the exit of satellite states from the Russian sphere of influence is very bad. Obviously, the opposite of satellite states getting their independence is, not having the SU break up in the first place, therefore preserving the soviet EMPIRE.

Putin isn't propping up the Assad regime with 'soft power'. Putin didn't deal with the Crimean situation with 'soft power'. Putin didn't deal with the Georgian/ S. Ossetia problem with, 'soft power".

If Putin is so UNLIKE the U.S. and China, why is he worried about expanding Russian influence with organisations like the CSTO? Why would he worry about protecting his borders and making sure the nations near Russia are pro Russian?

Maybe that is because he ISN'T all that different. Maybe, like the U.S. and China, or every other country in the world, he too competes for resources and influence on the global stage. Maybe like the U.S. and China, he realizes that expanding the nations military AND soft power, ensures that Russia will not fall behind and eventually be forgotten.

He sure likes his Tarsis base in Syria and wants to keep the Black Sea base to support a Russian fleet, a fleet that coincidentally, that has absolutely has no aims of force projection right?

Is everyone going to all of a sudden ignore history? Things have ALWAYS gotten bad for those who ignore and do not keep up with military technology. Those who let their militaries stagnate have no one to blame but themselves when shit hits the fan.

If Trump follows through with his promise, and pulls American forces back, then it is going to be like the wild west out there. The PRC will continue to expand and it would be unrealistic to think Putin not to take the opportunity to point out how the U.S. abandoned you and how it would be beneficial to embrace the Russian bear.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Personally I wouldn't mind embracing the Russian bear. OTHER people now... there's the problem.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

In his speech, Putin flat out says that the exit of satellite states from the Russian sphere of influence is very bad. Obviously, the opposite of satellite states getting their independence is, not having the SU break up in the first place, therefore preserving the soviet EMPIRE.

Yes, because guess who's sphere of influence it's going into and guess who's sharpening their knives. America.

Putin isn't propping up the Assad regime with 'soft power'. Putin didn't deal with the Crimean situation with 'soft power'. Putin didn't deal with the Georgian/ S. Ossetia problem with, 'soft power".

And NATO caused all of those conflicts, so maybe the last thing you'd do if you actually want to stop conflict is to stop expanding east.

If Putin is so UNLIKE the U.S. and China, why is he worried about expanding Russian influence with organisations like the CSTO? Why would he worry about protecting his borders and making sure the nations near Russia are pro Russian?

CSTO a collection of states near Russia mostly in Central Asia and the Caucasus with no clear target

NATO a collection of states across the Atlantic in Europe surrounding Russia

Maybe if America had just Canada plus a Mexico in NATO and changed Atlantic to American, then you could compare them.

He sure likes his Tarsis base in Syria and wants to keep the Black Sea base to support a Russian fleet, a fleet that coincidentally, that has absolutely has no aims of force projection right?

The US has bases across it's coasts and is far more hostile to countries. By your logic, we should invade now and stamp them out.

Is everyone going to all of a sudden ignore history? Things have ALWAYS gotten bad for those who ignore and do not keep up with military technology. Those who let their militaries stagnate have no one to blame but themselves when shit hits the fan.

Fun fact, Russia's military is stagnating.

The PRC will continue to expand

The US cannot stop China in the South China Sea

think Putin not to take the opportunity to point out how the U.S. abandoned you and how it would be beneficial to embrace the Russian bear.

So some countries near Russia be friends with them again. I think I like this more than fallout becoming a real world thing.

 

[DarkCorp]

1. You are ignoring an even more important question, who drove those satellite states into NATOS embrace? You want to talk about NATO expansion, well look no further than the Soviets who fucked themselves by treating their neighbors like shit. NATO membership is voluntary, just like the CSTO

Even if we ignore the question above, you haven't refuted what I have said. Just like the U.S. and pretty much every other nation out there, Putin uses an US VS THEM mentality to justify forcing the ex-soviet states into the Russian sphere of influence. Putin doesn't care what the satellite states wants, he just wants them under his thumb so he can stand up to the U.S. and play the game, hence the reason for glorious Soviet Union good.

2. Russia believes places like the Crimea, S. Ossetia and Syria should be states within the Russian sphere of influence, even though they are supposed to be neutral. The CSTO, and let us be frank, is NATO in regards to it is primary military bulk being Russian instead of American. It also exists as a deterrent to NATO expansion right? How dare the U.S. fuck with Russian ambitions right? See, Putin HAS ambitions and plans to expand Russian influence just like, GASP, the U.S. and China.

3. Where in the hell did I say we should STAMP OUT RUSSIA? I am saying Putin wants a big strong Russia that can flex its muscles and tell others what to do. U.S. has bases on foreign soil, Russia has bases on foreign soil. Its not a dick swinging contest here of how many each has.

4. How is the Russian military stagnating with new Main Battle Tanks, stealth fighters like the PAK-FA and attack helicopters like the MI 28NM. Sure they are not on par with the U.S. currently, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia is modernizing and re-organizing for the future, a future that would be much more Russian if people give Putin the opportunity.

5. We can if our president wasn't such a push over. We can be friends with China and still re-assure our allies like Taiwan and Japan that they won't get smashed by the PLA juggernaut.

China too is modernizing with its F22 ripoff the J31, J 20, and new attack helicopters like the WZ 10. They are working hard on sea power too with the Liaoning and plans to build another, bigger, carrier in the future.

6. Of course Putin and Russia would benefit from more nations entering into Russias sphere of influence.

As to the Euro Army, you folks are going to need it as Russia and China sure aren't slacking in the military upgrade department. The U.S. already has top of the line stuff too. Don't get left behind.

 

[SpecialHands]

We have made a colossal, absolutely colossal mistake.

 

[MutantScalper]

We have made a colossal, absolutely colossal mistake.

If you had a significant party in your country called UKIP then eventually something like this might happen. Also, where were the people who were in favour of the EU? They gotta vote. Reading in the media how many voted for Brexit as a "protest" "didn't actually mean it". Well guess what, when you vote it doesn't matter if you afterwards think that "you didn't mean it".

 

[SpecialHands]

If you had a significant party in your country called UKIP then eventually something like this might happen. Also, where were the people who were in favour of the EU? They gotta vote. Reading in the media how many voted for Brexit as a "protest" "didn't actually mean it". Well guess what, when you vote it doesn't matter if you afterwards think that "you didn't mean it".

Well, 16,141,241 of us were at the polling stations voting remain, that's where the 'pro' EU people were.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well, 16,141,241 of us were at the polling stations voting remain, that's where the 'pro' EU people were.

And now imagine if more people who were for remain actually went and voted.
https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/746700869656256512?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
If you liked it then you shoulda put a vote on it *dances*
Currently the medias are all like "OMFG the old farts stole our childrens' future!! Tyrany of the old! Logan's Run was a utopian story!", but, y'know, maybe the kids won't even notice.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I don't understand why so many of the UK citizens living outside the UK didn't had a chance to place their vote. As far as I know there are around 3 milion UK citizens living overseas. And many of them experienced some issues it seems. Maybe we should accept those as refugees now? They are definetly welcome. As long as they leave their food at home .

By the way, the truth hurts, but I can only agree with this. Of course only if the figures are correct:

 

[Hassknecht]

I don't understand why so many of the UK citizens living outside the UK didn't had a chance to place their vote. As far as I know there are around 3 milion UK citizens living overseas. And many of them experienced some issues it seems. Maybe we should accept those as refugees now? They are definetly welcome. As long as they leave their food at home .

By the way, the truth hurts, but I can only agree with this. Of course only if the figures are correct:

Maybe the filterbubble. I heard that a similar thing killed Bernie Sanders' campaign. His supporters were all bundled up in their filterbubble that showed them dozens of polls that they're gonna win easily, so often they just didn't feel the need to actually go and vote.

 

[DarkCorp]

I can only speak for people in the U.S., but a great deal of 'Berners", are Johnny Come Lately so to speak. Many have either never voted till this election or really didn't care enough to do so until it got popular and was the 'cool', thing to do. Many voters actually didn't know what kind of primaries there state had and forgot to change their affiliation from 'independent' to democrat.

Second, the Berners I have met are insanely un-compromising. They wear it proudly on their sleeves and yet are surprised when their candidate cannot seem to get anywhere. They are against anything that even remotely smells of the 'man', besides socialism of course, they love the free shit.

A great deal of Berners, are just super obnoxious. Maybe its just me but a vast majority of 'Berners', that I have met are walking liberal stereotypes. Most likely because they again, refuse to compromise on anything remotely centrist, never mind the right. Just think of all the most obnoxious anti-GMO, anti-global intervention of any kind (including the defense of our allies), pro-natural energy ONLY, etc, types you have ever met.

They are also giant hypocrites.

They are the same ones who will SJW you for making racial jokes against blacks and latinos while letting everything else go. Last I remembered, there are a ton of other immigrants in this country of varied racial background living in America.

I have already mentioned one can get Spanish government forms in this country yet non-exists for any other minority that might have recently arrived with only a tenuous grasp of the English language. Not a word from them there.

They fear monger. They are the loudest about how we are living in a 'fascist police state'. There are memes about police are only interested in protecting private property and anyone who is remotely successful, and shit on the poor only.

They say they are pro-immigration and other races yet sing the praises of Brexit as if 'power to the people', was the only thing that mattered.

The biggest cry of 'Berners', today is of a victim mentality. They believe there was a massive government cover up/conspiracy against Sanders from day one. The most hilarious of it is their hatred of the democratic party.

Bernie, who was a lifelong independent, who called the democratic and republican parties, 'morally and intellectually bankrupt', actually ran as a DEMOCRAT, the very thing he HATED. He did this as he believed running as an independent wouldn't get him enough votes. People say Bernie is clean and won't accept money from big wigs yet he was all too willing to sell his soul to the Democrats to get votes. Now does this sound like integrity to you? Reeks of opportunism to me.

The Bernie platform has so far been no different than any person before him who was a populist. Promise pie in the sky dreams are just around the corner as long as you vote HIM. I guess the liberals forgot they believed the same thing about OBAMMY when he was riding the train of 'cool'.

 

[Hassknecht]

The current media response to Brexit pisses me off to no end, btw. On the one hand it's kinda nice to see the journalists show their true colours once more, but the utter stupidity and massive idiocy of their anti-democratic mindsets is just blowing my mind. Several large german newspapers (in the loosest sense these days; it really is propaganda more often than not, and I spent more time researching any given article with other resources than actually reading the article because you just can't trust anything anymore) brought articles that basically boiled down to "Democracy is kinda shite if people can have the wrong opinion", seasoned nicely with liberal dashes of calling everything "HATE" and "HATESPEECH" and so on, and now a somewhat new cardboard-cutout-enemy, old people.
So. Fucking. Tired. They actually have the fucking balls to claim that allowing people to vote for stuff and having opinions means less democracy. You know that joke? More cheese means less cheese? Yeah. You know, I never could really believe that Doublethink would actually work...

But students are now the first to ask to be sheltered from thoughts.

 

[AskWazzup]

The current media response to Brexit pisses me off to no end, btw. On the one hand it's kinda nice to see the journalists show their true colours once more, but the utter stupidity and massive idiocy of their anti-democratic mindsets is just blowing my mind. Several large german newspapers (in the loosest sense these days; it really is propaganda more often than not, and I spent more time researching any given article with other resources than actually reading the article because you just can't trust anything anymore) brought articles that basically boiled down to "Democracy is kinda shite if people can have the wrong opinion", seasoned nicely with liberal dashes of calling everything "HATE" and "HATESPEECH" and so on, and now a somewhat new cardboard-cutout-enemy, old people.
So. Fucking. Tired. They actually have the fucking balls to claim that allowing people to vote for stuff and having opinions means less democracy. You know that joke? More cheese means less cheese? Yeah. You know, I never could really believe that Doublethink would actually work...

But students are now the first to ask to be sheltered from thoughts.

Well, they are doing the same thing as the brexiters, pointing fingers at the other side and beating their chest as loud as they can. And since media need viewers to survive, the "us vs them" theme here is completely in line with the rising populism and nationalism in Europe, and their ratings.

 

[Crni Vuk]

It will be interesting to see who UKIP and Nigel will blame in the years to come though, if the UK is thrown in a serious economic recession without any real improvement. I also find it hilarious how some people go on and say, I am also insert-your-minorty-here, and I was for UKIP/leave! They are not racist! Yeah ... Right-wing political extremism in a depression, when has that ever been the cause of something bad in history?

Maybe the filterbubble. I heard that a similar thing killed Bernie Sanders' campaign. His supporters were all bundled up in their filterbubble that showed them dozens of polls that they're gonna win easily, so often they just didn't feel the need to actually go and vote.

Yeah ... I guess the idea that you have to actually vote to get a change is probably simply above the head of some people out there.