A video on the Brexit and why the UK should leave.

[Antiwarprofallout]

That evidence against the words of both OBL an

You are confusing different organizations

Obama stated he would PREFER that the UK remain in the EU. It was an OPINION. Not like we were going to bomb the brits if they did leave.

He did threaten them though, with worse deals and putting them back on queues

I doubt the majority of the French and German peoples would agree with you that they are American puppet state.

They can deny all they want

And a coup is when you overthrow a government and install a new one

 

[DarkCorp]

I guess folks here are making a compelling argument for Europe to take its own place on the world stage as a counter-balance to the U.S., Russia and China.

Both Dr. Fallout and Gonzalez have shown pride in their home turf and wanting their nations to be strong and powerful. I do not get why people continue to deny that, inside us all, we want the nations that we live and work in to do better.

Some call it a spring that turned into something bigger, some say it is a coup. I am more of mind that the people in Libya and Syria wanted legitimate change, but hey, agree to disagree.

We may have given fund to MAK but we DIDN'T create the organization itself. It was still a product of anti-Soviet expansionism.

I can admit Obammy might have did some fear mongering but actively interfering with Brexit by imposing sanctions or other types of economic warfare on Brits, this I have to see. I will be doing some googling.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

To be fair, I used Hungary as example here, they are definetly not the only one treating those people like second class citizens. In Serbia, or well the Balkan in general, those people have to deal with a lot of racism. And yes I know what I am talking about because I have very ugly examples in my own family, where my uncle gave his daughter a choice. Don't marry a gyps, or kill your self, while placing a knive on the kitchen table. That was the point where she decides it's probably for the best to run away. That night she packed her stuff and escaped without anyone noticing. The next moring I remember her mother burning all of the stuff she left behind. So yeah ... there is that.
I could also go and mention the way how Islam is seen in estern europe in general, particularly Poland, which has very close ties to catholicism, but that's a story for another topic.
There is also a very real and ugly way how homosexuality is treated in eastern europe and the balkan. And anti-semitism isn't uncommon either. It is a very sad reality that eastern europe and the balkan have always been very open to treating minorities like shit, that you can see a lot of racism and antisemitism. This was also true under Communist rule. And it is in my opinion definetly a problem that gets very often ignored today.

A video of a bunch of kids playing isn't very convincing in terms of an entire ethnic group living in poverty. Not all gypsies are poor, and those that are are not so due to racism.

Also, cool story.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well Dark, because that often enough leads us to a path we had so many times already, leading us in a very ugly direction (See WW1 and WW2) ... and wasn't doing us really any favours in the end. What does it mean, to be "strong" and "powerfull"? I am more interested in equality, liberty and peace for example. Those are a lot more important values for me in a nation than power and strength.

 

[MutantScalper]

 

[Crni Vuk]

A video of a bunch of kids playing isn't very convincing in terms of an entire ethnic group living in poverty. Not all gypsies are poor, and those that are are not so due to racism.

Also, cool story.

But I understand ... it is all liberal and leftist propaganda I suppose. Unless it happens to you of course.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

But I understand ... it is all liberal and leftist propaganda I suppose. Unless it happens to you of course.

Even the gypsy in the first video you posted said that there's no discrimination, only the shady-looking two which asked for money to be interviewed said that there is.

 

[DarkCorp]

Crni

The one thing I am very sure of in life is that YOU are responsible for looking out for yourself, as everyone else is looking out for them.

Now I admit I may be wrong, but it isn't so hard to believe that there would be Chinese rooting for a stronger China. Or the majority of Taiwanese who want independence and view any sort of re-unification with the mainlanders abhorrent. Vietnamese who dream of a stronger Vietnam who can stick it to their Chinese neighbor.

As I pointed out, in history, those who were lax in military technology and scientific advancement as a whole, were often the first to be taken advantage of. It is just a natural product of resource competition. Speak of utopias all you want but TBH, there is no such thing as free shit. This has been discussed in the communism thread.

Qing China was backwards as hell, they got PWNed. Japan was backwards and they got PWNed. The Native Americans, the Indians, the Vietnamese, etc, etc. All these countries were picked on until they said they said no more.

Many accepted unfair treaties as that was better than flat out fighting to the death, like what had happened to Qing China during the early 20th century.

 

[SuAside]

I would rather see the money going to help social and political reforms than an European army. We really don't need that much of an military force in this day and age.

All those countries are members of NATO and are actually required to spend a certain part of their GDP on their respective military strength. We have not been doing that for a good while. We are grossly underspending on our obligations towards NATO.
Besides, militaries create good jobs and offer good education.

We cannot continue to rely on the US to bail us out each time we need to do something. There's maybe 3 european countries with strategic air lift capacity, and even that is so restrictive that we freqently have to ask the US to give us a ride with their planes each time we need to fly heavy equipment somewhere. That's just retarded.
The american defense spending is equally retarded of course, and we should not strive for parity with them. But sufficient funding to keep a defensive & peacekeeping army are a must. Most EU armies are grossly underfunded and keep shrinking. That trend cannot continue, unless we also stop foreign interventions (UN, NATO,...).

Are you denying that NATO and the EU have expanded into areas once under Russian Influence?

But not through military conquest.
It's funny to see how much you think NATO and EU are evil for supporting some selective uprisings and coups, yet when Russia does the same, you turn a blind eye?

 

[DarkCorp]

Putin in his SU speech, clearly stated that the collapse of the SU was a BAD thing. That losing its territories was a BAD thing. He clearly wants a stronger, bigger Russia.

I simply do not understand why people try to deny this. I am not speaking of morality or anything like that. I am simply stating Putin wants a big powerful Russia too.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Crni

The one thing I am very sure of in life is that YOU are responsible for looking out for yourself, as everyone else is looking out for them.

Uhm yeah. Have you ever been victim to racism? I mean real racism? Serious qustion.

 

[DarkCorp]

How does racism play into this? I am talking about you as a member of your country. If Germans do not look out for Germany, who will?

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think I am missunderstanding you. What do you mean in detail, are we talking about gypsis and their situation in Europe or ...?

All those countries are members of NATO and are actually required to spend a certain part of their GDP on their respective military strength. We have not been doing that for a good while. We are grossly underspending on our obligations towards NATO.
Besides, militaries create good jobs and offer good education.

I am not completely anti military. I see the need for it. But the question, do we need MORE? In my opinion, we need less in certain areas. Germany already is lowering military expenses in a lot of areas, as it seems less and less likely that we will have huge armies facing each other. A war with China? Russia? France?. This would be, in this day and age, suicide anyway when you consider how many of the global players own nuclear weapons in all kind of forms, with the NATO and all the other military structures. Nuclear weapons are a game changer in that respect. Doesn't mean there will never be conflicts. But I think those will be a lot more like what we see in Ukraine or the middle east, africa etc.

Spoiler: Is war over?

When it comes to military and the military industry, my opinion is, trim the fat not the muscle. Yes, it does create jobs and all that. I do not denny this! And some high quality joobs too. And in Germanythe military has often done a great job in the floods we get over some parts of Germany. But it is a complex topic. I am not so much disagreeing with you. I just think that it is a sword with two edges here. And I think that we are currently in general spending to much on it.

 

[DarkCorp]

Crni

You quoted me but I never said anything about the Roma. I think you just got a bit confused.

 

[DarkCorp]

LOL oh boy, askwhazzups joke went straight over my head WOW.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You said my name, But I am not sure what you mean by (...) The one thing I am very sure of in life is that YOU are responsible for looking out for yourself, as everyone else is looking out for them.

Sorry if I mixed something up. I just don't know what you mean, since this topic has not diverged quite a lot.

Even the gypsy in the first video you posted said that there's no discrimination, only the shady-looking two which asked for money to be interviewed said that there is.

Doesn't mean it's not real. I never had to deal with discrimination in Germany, not that I am aware of! Like where someone told me that I can't have this or that job or where I was denied entry in a certain position/place because of my name and how it sounds. However, I definetly faced racism, and some very ugly forms of it. And I did notice how sometimes people change, when they hear my name. My sister also encountered strange situations, when the parents of one of her girl friends told her, you know we don't like you people (you like in Serbians), but since we know you now, you are alright. So yes, discrimination still happens, just because some never saw it or experienced it, doesn't mean it's not there. I never said all of Hungary hates gypsis and throws them in concentration camps. But I hope that you at least posses the required brain power, to realize that we are talking about figures here. So some people proably have been nearly beaten to death, simply because of their name/roots, while others eventually can't find a job because of their skin colour, or someone else gets just a a few strange looks here and there, where other areas see almost no discrminiation/racism. But to claim that there is NO racism/discrimination, when there are also people in the exact same video, that tell you about cases where they faced some ... sellective memory much?

 

[DarkCorp]

I was saying that everyone looks out for their own, in this case, nationally.

Gonzalez wants a strong Argentina that doesn't get bossed around by anyone.

Dr. Fallout isn't exactly a fan of a weak Russia.

I am not a fan of the U.S. losing its current status in global politics.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Doesn't mean it's not real. I never had to deal with discrimination in Germany, not that I am aware of! Like where someone told me that I can't have this or that job or where I was denied entry in a certain position/place because of my name and how it sounds. However, I definetly faced racism, and some very ugly forms of it. And I did notice how sometimes people change, when they hear my name. My sister also encountered strange situations, when the parents of one of her girl friends told her, you know we don't like you people (you like in Serbians), but since we know you now, you are alright. So yes, discrimination still happens, just because some never saw it or experienced it, doesn't mean it's not there. I never said all of Hungary hates gypsis and throws them in concentration camps. But I hope that you at least posses the required brain power, to realize that we are talking about figures here. So some people proably have been nearly beaten to death, simply because of their name/roots, while others eventually can't find a job because of their skin colour, or someone else gets just a a few strange looks here and there, where other areas see almost no discrminiation/racism. But to claim that there is NO racism/discrimination, when there are also people in the exact same video, that tell you about cases where they faced some ... sellective memory much?

I did not say that there is no racism amongst the population. When your community fails to assimilate even after 1500 years spent in a host country and refuses to give up their anti-social practices, there's bound to be repercussions. However, it is not the cause of their poverty, and not at all institutional.

Someone in that video was lying, and I think it's sooner going to be the shady looking types which asked for money to be interviewed.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Because research doesn't matter ... right? And it's about sovereignty ...

 

[SuAside]

I am not completely anti military. I see the need for it. But the question, do we need MORE?

Europe should be able to hold its own. We can't at this point.
If the US decides to become isolationist and non-interventionalist, we could be screwed.

Is it fair to overly rely on the US for our own protection?
The US didn't mind way back when because of the Soviet threat. But that's gone now. Those simple days are over. We live in a far more complex world.
If we want to be taken seriously (also in terms of foreign policy), we need to stand on our own two legs, instead of relying on our burly kid brother.

This would be, in this day and age, suicide anyway when you consider how many of the global players own nuclear weapons in all kind of forms, with the NATO and all the other military structures.

Except you don't have any nukes.
The Brits do. The French do. The Americans do.
You don't.

NATO might not be around forever. Or the most important members might withdraw due to a change in foreign policy. It's happened in the past. The French did not want to play ball and dropped out.

EUFOR already exists. Nordic Battle Group already exists. Intercountry cooperation already exists on many levels.

Nuclear weapons are a game changer in that respect. Doesn't mean there will never be conflicts. But I think those will be a lot more like what we see in Ukraine or the middle east, africa etc.

All examples of conflicts which need a functional conventional army with a sound logistics train and a strategic airlift capacity.
Those aren't things you solve with air superiority bombing, UAVs and proxy armies.

When it comes to military and the military industry, my opinion is, trim the fat not the muscle.

Ironically, we've largely been trimming the muscle, not the fat.
We've been grossly underspending on personnel, training & logistics. Sure, we're spending money on new helicopters, new planes, new APCs, etc. But we barely train with them. We don't have strategical airlift capability to transport them. We have a military which is quickly ageing (top heavy, full of old farts).
Most EU armies get stretched thin when participating in peacekeeping and mentoring. This means that in case of war, they don't stand a friggin' chance.

There are some exceptions to the rule (France for instance), but what I'm saying above largely holds true across the EU.