Adapting Van Buren (Workshop - Complete on Page 30)

Atomic Postman said:
So, changes in the upcoming PDF:

  • Tartarus renamed Colossus
  • Iron Rivers golden spike quest and Big Rock Candy Mountain as folk mythos debated between each clan
  • New Canaan and related using NCR Dollars instead of bottle caps
  • New Canaan quest to establish trade with Burham Springs
  • Emphasis on Ghouls in New Canaan - a glowing one has gone from radioactive to the touch to outwardly glowing and is isolated in his home.
  • Detail on Syracuse Water Plant including a travelling Cipher of the West
  • Detail on the Eagle Rock Tribe
  • Detail on the Tar Walkers
  • Tar Walker path for Burham Springs with the catch that it means it becomes a Mormon Mission and they're converts
  • Detail on the 2253 White Legs
  • Bounty hunting quest from Jericho inspired by Tom Dooley and Unforgiven, leading the party to Heartbreak Hotel
  • Quest line regarding the party building a dune buggy - requires the help of the 80s as they are the only ones with a functioning stocked garage at Motown (which can act as a hub for maintenance and upgrades). Only doable if they're trusted Bubbas. If the party find a way to build it without them and cross the 80s, they will be periodically hunted by pairs of motorbike riding 80s trying to jack their ride. Same if the party somehow repair Buck's Truck and hijack it. They'll want to steal it just cause
  • If Motown is besieged, the 80s torch the garage.
  • Slave caravan questline from Heartbreak Hotel to Magnum Chasma
  • Alexandra at Magnum Chasma and her decision to bring in the priestess or take her to the Rangers
  • Copperheads are "Silvers" (Legion use silver coins)
  • Twisted Hairs vendor and subplot at Magnum Chasma
  • Detail on Painted Rock - much like the Dead Horses they're Navajo mixed with local tourists, but lean heavier on actual Navajo customs
  • Detail on Bloomfield and the Rusty Hooks
  • Detail on the Scorpions Bite and Glyphers
  • Detail on the non-tribal communities of New Mexico
That's all that comes to mind now but more will flow as I type the document
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These are all great though I would contest changing Copperheads to Silvers. Firstly of course I am attached to the concept since I came up with it (not really pertinent but it may be leading my thinking.) Secondly I like the name Copperhead a lot better than Silvers, invocation of a snake is IMO a good Southwestern flair. Thirdly (and related) I just think copper is cooler aesthetically - it is the prime metal of Arizona and New Mexico, the amounts produced are absolutely insane, and its mere color I think does well to invoke the desert atmosphere. Fourth, and finally, just because the Legion uses silver by the time of New Vegas does not mean they would some 22 years earlier. In fact, I'd argue it makes more sense and is more interesting if they don't - the Legion isn't setting terms on regional commerce, Phoenix is, and the introduction of silver (and gold) is essentially a major monetary reform by the Legion a bit later on to replace the debased currency of the decadent Phoenixian merchants. But in 2253, they don't have the clout or the access to silver for it to make sense. Maybe with the conquest of Flagstaff Caesar is starting to think about monetary reforms, but its implementation isn't here yet.

Just my two (copper!) cents.
 
Hardboiled Android said:
These are all great though I would contest changing Copperheads to Silvers. Firstly of course I am attached to the concept since I came up with it (not really pertinent but it may be leading my thinking.) Secondly I like the name Copperhead a lot better than Silvers, invocation of a snake is IMO a good Southwestern flair. Thirdly (and related) I just think copper is cooler aesthetically - it is the prime metal of Arizona and New Mexico, the amounts produced are absolutely insane, and its mere color I think does well to invoke the desert atmosphere. Fourth, and finally, just because the Legion uses silver by the time of New Vegas does not mean they would some 22 years earlier. In fact, I'd argue it makes more sense and is more interesting if they don't - the Legion isn't setting terms on regional commerce, Phoenix is, and the introduction of silver (and gold) is essentially a major monetary reform by the Legion a bit later on to replace the debased currency of the decadent Phoenixian merchants. But in 2253, they don't have the clout or the access to silver for it to make sense. Maybe with the conquest of Flagstaff Caesar is starting to think about monetary reforms, but its implementation isn't here yet.

Just my two (copper!) cents.
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I understand your reasoning I just think Copperhead is an unwieldy name. Maybe just Copper. The Legion overturning and starting their own currency does make sense. As for clout, Sawyer explains that the Legion forms their currency from melting down existing silver and gold items. Prospecting basically.
 
Also, any additions or changes that come to mind? The Cazadore one I stray away from because I'm not level scaling and Cazadores ain't nothing to fuck with. Utah is early to mid level.

@Dayglow Drifter any ideas?
 
Atomic Postman said:
I understand your reasoning I just think Copperhead is an unwieldy name. Maybe just Copper. The Legion overturning and starting their own currency does make sense. As for clout, Sawyer explains that the Legion forms their currency from melting down existing silver and gold items. Prospecting basically.
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I totally disagree, I feel like it rolls off the tongue real well. Maybe it's just an accent difference? But hey, you're the guy who has to actually say it out loud, so if you think it doesn't fit then it don't fit.

And I was making a distinction between clout and access - by clout I just meant that the Legion just doesn't have enough of the economic market share in the Four Corners or even Arizona to unilaterally impose monetary reforms/a new currency just yet. Its in the works, maybe it could even be integrated into the Legion questline somehow, but for now Phoenix runs the roost (at least economically), and for me copper just screams 'Phoenix.' And as I said, the dynamics of currency changing over time, and the realistic idea that the Legion would want to impose a new non-debased currency as they become the main force, is interesting and makes it feel more alive.

It also probably helps that I had already made an icon for Copperheads:

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Atomic Postman said:
Also, any additions or changes that come to mind? The Cazadore one I stray away from because I'm not level scaling and Cazadores ain't nothing to fuck with. Utah is early to mid level.
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That's why I had specified 'low level' cazadore, just wave your hand and say this one doesn't have its venom fully developed since it just migrated or something. But that may end up giving the players the wrong expectations of what they'll be up against when they meet real deal Cazadores, which could be a problem. Your call as always.

I'm going through in earnest, I'll try to have a full list for you tomorrow though it may have to be the day after.
 
Hardboiled Android said:
I totally disagree, I feel like it rolls off the tongue real well. Maybe it's just an accent difference? But hey, you're the guy who has to actually say it out loud, so if you think it doesn't fit then it don't fit.

And I was making a distinction between clout and access - by clout I just meant that the Legion just doesn't have enough of the economic market share in the Four Corners or even Arizona to unilaterally impose monetary reforms/a new currency just yet. Its in the works, maybe it could even be integrated into the Legion questline somehow, but for now Phoenix runs the roost (at least economically), and for me copper just screams 'Phoenix.' And as I said, the dynamics of currency changing over time, and the realistic idea that the Legion would want to impose a new non-debased currency as they become the main force, is interesting and makes it feel more alive.

It also probably helps that I had already made an icon for Copperheads:

View attachment 20090


That's why I had specified 'low level' cazadore, just wave your hand and say this one doesn't have its venom fully developed since it just migrated or something. But that may end up giving the players the wrong expectations of what they'll be up against when they meet real deal Cazadores, which could be a problem. Your call as always.

I'm going through in earnest, I'll try to have a full list for you tomorrow though it may have to be the day after.
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You've sold me on Copperheads, but I still stray away from Cazadores. Maybe the mutant locusts could be their replacement. Steal White Leg hunting tools they use to attract them
 
Atomic Postman said:
You've sold me on Copperheads, but I still stray away from Cazadores. Maybe the mutant locusts could be their replacement. Steal White Leg hunting tools they use to attract them
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Hey, if it came down to that or a half-baked quest concept about cazadores I came up with in the last ten minutes purely because I got stung by a yellowjacket, I'm pleased with the outcome.
 
I'm also thinking of changing Fort Hope to something less cheesy and obvious that also draws less comparison to NCR (Forlorn Hope, Fort Abandon etc) and connect it to their Ranger team. (I like to think the Ranger Station naming convention in the Mojave is a carry over from DR outposts there previously,) I was thinking something like Station Sierra, Stockade Sierra, Sierra Outpost, Ranger Stockade or if I wanted to keep the fort name, Fort Sierra.
 
I'm sure I missed out on the conversation regarding this but why the change regarding New Canaan's currency? I think that it would make sense for a settlement and culture that values trade to gravitate towards a more stable and universal currency like caps, at least in my opinion.

I like the Mormon Ghoul angle, a cool way to kind of explore the empathy and compassion that can be found within religion with the harsh realities of the wasteland. Also a neat way to explore the kind of "science" of the ghoul condition, with the potential for neat roleplaying opportunities for a ghoul PC.

I am also looking forward to seeing the various tribes fleshed out even more, the whole "tribal" thing is one of my favorite parts of the lore of the Fallout universe and as @Hardboiled Android said you are very good at making your own additions to that.

Atomic Postman said:
Stockade Sierra
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I like Stockade a lot, actually. If you want to go more military jargon with the name you could always do something like Forward Operating Base or something along those lines. I think Outpost could work as well.
 
Dayglow Drifter said:
I'm sure I missed out on the conversation regarding this but why the change regarding New Canaan's currency? I think that it would make sense for a settlement and culture that values trade to gravitate towards a more stable and universal currency like caps, at least in my opinion.

I like the Mormon Ghoul angle, a cool way to kind of explore the empathy and compassion that can be found within religion with the harsh realities of the wasteland. Also a neat way to explore the kind of "science" of the ghoul condition, with the potential for neat roleplaying opportunities for a ghoul PC.

I am also looking forward to seeing the various tribes fleshed out even more, the whole "tribal" thing is one of my favorite parts of the lore of the Fallout universe and as @Hardboiled Android said you are very good at making your own additions to that.



I like Stockade a lot, actually. If you want to go more military jargon with the name you could always do something like Forward Operating Base or something along those lines. I think Outpost could work as well.
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For the currency - New Canaan was without currency prior to Western traders. As of 2253 (i.e before BoS war takes its toll and the Water Merchants actively re-establish the bottlecap to undermine the failing NCR Dollar) all the settlements of North California, even those non NCR, use the NCR Dollar in Fallout 2. Hence, traders from the west connecting with New Canaan and introducing currency would do so with NCR Dollars.
 
Atomic Postman said:
I'm also thinking of changing Fort Hope to something less cheesy and obvious that also draws less comparison to NCR (Forlorn Hope, Fort Abandon etc) and connect it to their Ranger team. (I like to think the Ranger Station naming convention in the Mojave is a carry over from DR outposts there previously,) I was thinking something like Station Sierra, Stockade Sierra, Sierra Outpost, Ranger Stockade or if I wanted to keep the fort name, Fort Sierra.
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What about Fort McGee? In Van Buren that was the old US cavalry fort that Tibbets was built on, and the location of Fort Abandon was very close to Tibbets, and so is your Fort Hope relative to the original location. It has a Western feel to it, and gives some more synergy with the original game. Of course this fort is post-War, so you'd have to justify it by saying its named in honor of some high-ranking Ranger or hero out West.

Alternatively, how about Fort McCord?
 
Hardboiled Android said:
What about Fort McGee? In Van Buren that was the old US cavalry fort that Tibbets was built on, and the location of Fort Abandon was very close to Tibbets, and so is your Fort Hope relative to the original location. It has a Western feel to it, and gives some more synergy with the original game. Of course this fort is post-War, so you'd have to justify it by saying its named in honor of some high-ranking Ranger or hero out West.

Alternatively, how about Fort McCord?
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Interesting bit of research and flavour but as you say it's a post war fort by the Rangers - no connection to the old. At the moment I'm leaning towards Sierra Outpost (which later just becomes "Sierra" if you turn it into a town) and Fort Sierra.
 
Atomic Postman said:
Interesting bit of research and flavour but as you say it's a post war fort by the Rangers - no connection to the old. At the moment I'm leaning towards Sierra Outpost (which later just becomes "Sierra" if you turn it into a town) and Fort Sierra.
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Well as I've said on other occasions, here it's some 'poetry it rhymes' - in the OG there was a pre-War fort named McGee, here there's a post-War one.

In any case I'm just not a huge fan of Fort Sierra and associates. it just feels a little too generically 'cool' to my ear.
 
Hardboiled Android said:
Well as I've said on other occasions, here it's some 'poetry it rhymes' - in the OG there was a pre-War fort named McGee, here there's a post-War one.

In any case I'm just not a huge fan of Fort Sierra and associates. it just feels a little too generically 'cool' to my ear.
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How about we split the middle and make it a Wasteland reference. That feels right. Fort Cochise?

I was also thinking about making it an old world penitentiary (a sparse facility popped up to hold rioters and dissidents from Phoenix) that the rangers had converted and replaced the old chain link fencing with Adobe walls. Gives more space for it to become a town than a western fort.
 
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I forgot to mention I'll be adding the Crazy Horns to the PDF too. Descended from slightly rapey boy scouts on a trip in manti la sal national forest and now a tribe fixated with Big Horners, and trade through logging their forest.
 
Atomic Postman said:
I forgot to mention I'll be adding the Crazy Horns to the PDF too. Descended from slightly rapey boy scouts on a trip in manti la sal national forest and now a tribe fixated with Big Horners, and trade through logging their forest.
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Rapey in the sense that they were a bunch of pubescent boys off on their own with initially no women who went Lord-of-the-Flies but with more rape, or rapey in a more yiksey Scoutmaster sense
 
Hardboiled Android said:
Rapey in the sense that they were a bunch of pubescent boys off on their own with initially no women who went Lord-of-the-Flies but with more rape, or rapey in a more yiksey Scoutmaster sense
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Lord of the Flies. In fact I'll straight up he ripping off the Pig head but with a Big Horner head instead.
 
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