Dr Fallout
Centurion
Because it turns the LEADING change of Fallout, you know the thing that makes everything technological about Fallout possible is suddenly made unimportant.
Anyone else think this whole 'Synth' thing has gone too far?
- Thread starter Greentoast11
- Start date
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
They used robots for all other tasks and now using synths.
The Institute do collects resources including any wastelander with high intelligence also Gen-1 and Gen-2 synths systematically collect resources and even strip down towns for spare parts.
I believe Institute achieved more scientific progress than Shi because;
They're a much better collective of scientific minds than Shi and unlike Shi they started with much more fertile ground for progress with total access to scientific knowledge before the war. Also The Institute is a meritocracy with sole purpose of scientific development with highly autonomic branches that work with minimum bureaucracy on the other hand Shi is a feudality with strictly hierarchic society.
Also due to it's condition, Shi has to diverge it's attention toward military and industrial technology much more than The Institute has to, so they can't afford to solely focus on less practical or long term technology.
Enclave is a bureaucratic monarchy and their approach toward development mostly about producing more weapon and armor. Community of businessman, military officers and politicians is nothing compared to Shi or The Institute (when it comes science!)
It happens with almost every scientific breakthrough...
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that MIT is mostly made up of people who don't know how to farm land, mine rare minerals or, create nuclear reactors without help from people who actually do these things. How the hell did the Institute build their first synth without:
A) Needing some resource that wasn't available to them through salvaging.
B) Farming enough food to feed a fairly sizeable community.
C) Power; although there are a lot of talented engineers at MIT they don't have the ability to create large scale reactors without help from the working class.
I doubt the Institute was the superpower it is in Fallout 4 before they began synth production so it's unlikely that they'd have scouts capable of finding new recruits who could solve these problems, so how the fuck did the Institute ever survive the post-apocalyptic world? You'll notice most successful factions have either always had strong militaries or knowledge on how to survive in the harsh environment, the Institute would have had neither of these things, they should have died the moment they left their underground cradle.
A) Needing some resource that wasn't available to them through salvaging.
B) Farming enough food to feed a fairly sizeable community.
C) Power; although there are a lot of talented engineers at MIT they don't have the ability to create large scale reactors without help from the working class.
I doubt the Institute was the superpower it is in Fallout 4 before they began synth production so it's unlikely that they'd have scouts capable of finding new recruits who could solve these problems, so how the fuck did the Institute ever survive the post-apocalyptic world? You'll notice most successful factions have either always had strong militaries or knowledge on how to survive in the harsh environment, the Institute would have had neither of these things, they should have died the moment they left their underground cradle.
Irwin John Finster
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
The premise is a great idea, but the writing is for babies which is why the term "wasted potential" comes up so much when people describe Fallout 4.
Bethesda needs to completely replace its writing staff. Or at least let better writers make a spin-off.
Fallout 4: overall some good gameplay additions but the worst writing. If the game had competent writers on board and a good dialogue system, it really would be a great game.
Bethesda needs to completely replace its writing staff. Or at least let better writers make a spin-off.
Fallout 4: overall some good gameplay additions but the worst writing. If the game had competent writers on board and a good dialogue system, it really would be a great game.
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
Well construction of The Institute was underway before the war as a cooperation between MIT and the army. It's plausible to believe they horded a lot of raw material for potential upgrades. And as i say they're actively using androids and synths to collect material. Player comes across with Synths in almost every secret government facilities and Institute even makes big raids to towns. So it's a fact that they actively seeking materials.
Considering they use artifical day light, farming isn't out of question, actually almost whole bio science division dedicated to farming. Also they do control some farms through their agents and collect the yield.
The Institute is isolated but they do go out outside regularly even after Gen-3. That's why they're not "pure" for F.E.V/Synth development.
Working class probably was robots since there are some robots in outer parts of the institute and so they probably replaced with new model robots(gen-1, gen-2) for menial labor.
Also they started building Gen-1s soon after the war so they always had a military power.
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Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Thing is, you SAY the working class was robots, but outside of the Synths, we don't see a single other robot in the Institute. No Protectrons, no Securitrons, no Sentry Bots, no Assaultrons, no Mr. Handies, nada, zip, zilch. Unless there's factual proof that this is what they used to scavenge materials to start producing synths in the first place then it's a plot hole. And trust me, I"ve explored the entire Institute because of how many plot holes I wanted answers to. None of the terminals mention them using any sort of robots outside of the synths. The problem with your arguments is that you're using a lot of assumptions, not actual evidence.
On that note, there's not really any point in defending the Institute. Even if they were smart enough to build these synths and somehow come up with a way to mass produce them out of thin air, there's still tons of glaring plot holes. For example, how were they able to make artificial life extenders for Kellog and keep him at exactly the same age as when he kidnapped Shaun 60 years ago, essentially making him immortal, but they couldn't fix Shaun's cancer? Why would they build Super Mutants for 10 fucking years if they weren't getting any data out of it? Only thing I found was a holotape from Virgil where he mentions that he tried to get Father to cancel the project, but Father kept it going. For no reason. There is no explanation. Let's also not forget about how they nonsensically kidnap people from the Wasteland and replace them with synths, and then they magically expect us to fully trust them once we arrive? Once again, without explanation. Why the Hell would they make an entirely new breed of Synths with teleportation devices meant to track down regular Gen 3 Synths rather than just putting that teleportation tech in regular Gen 3 Synths and solving all their problems right there? And don't give me any bullshit about them not having the resources to do that, they give you INFINITE teleportation grenades you can use to summon 5 gen 1 synths to your aid in battle, so they clearly have the resources to do this.
I could keep going, but the point is, for everything right about the Institute, there's a fucking huge hole right next to it that nobody bothered to patch up. There's no point in trying to defend such a broken faction. Though I can appreciate you trying.
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
There is an Assaultron and some broken robots inside the institute(on your way to old FEV lab). Only assumption i'm making is that they did use other type of robots before gen-1 and it's a very fair assumption like assuming they did eat food, drink water and breath air before we meet them. It's not a necessity to write down everything.
Also you're utterly ignoring that they interact with the outside world, their current level of isolation happened in time as synths get more capable.
About Kellogg; he's barely human and very much an android. He's as well explained as Deathclaws or Super Mutants(which is not much).
Yes there are no written reasons for why F.E.V research resumed; however my guess is Father wanted to find a way to cure his own cancer. Kept his reasons to himself because he was hiding his disease.
It's not smart to give everyone Courser chips. Otherwise it would be too easy for anyone to gain access to The Institute since non-courser synths are easy to kill.
Also the chips only given to most trusted individuals. Coursers are not only chosen for their combat prowess but also how trustworthy they're.
Also you're utterly ignoring that they interact with the outside world, their current level of isolation happened in time as synths get more capable.
About Kellogg; he's barely human and very much an android. He's as well explained as Deathclaws or Super Mutants(which is not much).
Yes there are no written reasons for why F.E.V research resumed; however my guess is Father wanted to find a way to cure his own cancer. Kept his reasons to himself because he was hiding his disease.
It's not smart to give everyone Courser chips. Otherwise it would be too easy for anyone to gain access to The Institute since non-courser synths are easy to kill.
Also the chips only given to most trusted individuals. Coursers are not only chosen for their combat prowess but also how trustworthy they're.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
When and where has the Institute interacted with the outside world? They said it themselves that they're scared to death of the surface and don't want to get irradiated. Hell, the first time we see the Institute besides Kellog is those 2 bozos in the giant white hazmat suits. And from what I gathered with in-game dialogue, they've clearly stated they only interacted with the outside world ONCE, and that was, essentially, when they tried to form a sort of government over the Commonwealth but were quickly overthrown. That's about it, unless you have some actual proof to back up that claim.
Kellog, well explained? I'll take that with a grain of salt, but the fact is mate, even if he IS mostly an android now, why couldn't they just do the same thing with Shaun eh? Rip out a lot of his vital bits and make him into exactly what Kellog is? Then there wouldn't be any cancer problem. Sure you could argue that would make him more like a synth than anything but does it really matter? Immortality VS Dying at the age of 60 from a horrible disease, which would you choose? Not a very tough decision now is it? Especially when he's the leader of the Institute! Even if he didn't want to go through with it I highly suspect his colleagues would essentially force him to do so so they didn't lose their leader. No, the cancer is a very poorly contrived plot convenience so that the player can take over the Institute and you can have a final "bonding" moment with your shitbiscuit of a son. There's absolutely no reason Shaun should have cancer. Now if Kellogg wasn't actually a human being and was a cloned synth, then I could understand it more, but no, because Kellogg is still partly human, that proves they can basically rip a person apart with no consequences and keep them immortal, thus Shaun's cancer should be a non issue.
But still, for 10 years? Do you realize how long 10 years actually is? 10 years of literally reproducing the same thing over and over? It's not like with the Master, where even though the Master's results started out flawed, they slowly got better over time. The Master actually started making very intelligent SUper Mutants once he figured out how FEV worked. In fact, it took the Master LESS time to figure out how FEV works than these idiots. The Institute just kept dunking Wastelanders into FEV with the exact same results and no deviation. Don't use Strong as an example. Yes he's friendly, but unlike, say, Fawkes or Uncle Leo from FO3 he's hardly intelligent by any stretch of the imagination. In fact he comments on eating people on a daily basis. They just kept making Dumb Dumbs for 10 years. In fact, when you look at the FEV Lab log, it never mentions anything about them making progress, it just mentions them tagging SMs and sending them out into the wastes or killing them.
I don't think you're reading the entirety of what I sent. There would be no danger in giving all the Gen 3 synths Courser chips, and do you know why? The very SECOND they detect that a synth has started its escape, then boom, they can get that Synth right back immediately with no consequences. And with this in mind, they could still make the Coursers, but put those Coursers on patrol around the escape points of the Institute so none of them can escape. Now I could understand what you're saying if these Synths weren't trackable, but as proven by the Synth Coursers, pretty much all Gen 3 Synths have a tracking device in them. So it isn't like the Institute doesn't know when Synths escape. They know. And this way the second they see one has gotten away, they just beam it right back. The only way to stop a synth being tracked is by letting the Railroad perform surgery on them, specifically with the Memory Den. This is proven by the Synth H2-22 whom we meet in the Railroad questline. He's scared absolutely shitless that the Institute is going to track him down until you get him to safety.
I would at least have thrown in that the Institute's technicians have been able to create transistors and then microchips in the centuries after the War. A rare technology found nowhere else.
Good points. No indications are given that the Institute invented the same matter rearrangement technology that Big MT did or had access to it before the War.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Except in this case, no one gives a fuck.
Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
During an institute quest a scientist went outside to collect a guy with a high intellect. Another one was seen meeting with Kellogg to get rid of him, one of head scientist comes outside with player to Mass Fusion building etc. The Institute is not a Vault and nowhere in game it's stated that they didn't went outside, quite contrary there are many cases even after GEN-3 scientist go outside.
Because Shaun shut the android program down and disdains it. He simply doesn't want that program to go anywhere(his terminal) and it seems his disdain for it big enough to not give it a another chance even to prolong his life give.
Well i would call Virgil a success. Ten times more successful than anything The Master ever produced.
Point of Courser chips is allowing the user to teleport when he "wants". Also you're ignoring the fact that a synth managing to escape in the first place could also be able to disable the chip, compromising the security. Also it's not like: "R2-D2 JUST STEPPED OUTSIDE! LIKE A MILISECOND AGO, TELEPORT, TELEPORT, TELEPORT!!!1!" because escaped Synths go outside with forged work orders it probably takes relatively long time notice they went rogue. If they did give everyone a courser chip Railroad(or whoever else) would be at their door in no time. You don't give keys to your house to everyone, come on, it makes no sense.
Memory wipe is for them to blend in it has nothing to do with tracking. You just made that up. Without blending in they either get killed or get snitched by one of many informants Institute has outside. That's the reason.
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Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Father explicitly states they haven't been above ground in a long time due to radiation, but fine, I'll take your 3 examples as proof the Institute sometimes ventures above ground. Doesn't prove they have contact with the above world though given how 2 out of those 3 interactions are only with your character.
Alright, I missed that one. Still a really stupid reason to shut down an amazing program with the only excuse being "Father wills it" but whatever. I'm still calling it a complete cop-out just so they could have the excuse of giving Shaun cancer so you could take over the Institute and/or have an "emotional" moment with your son.
Oh yes, because 10 years of research with only ONE positive result means the whole thing was a success yeah? No, not at all. And second of all, Virgil doesn't count. He turned himself into a mutant along with making some bullshit miracle cure for himself. He made the FEV he injected himself with special, in other words, without jurisdiction or authority from other Institute scientists. What he used on himself was something completely different than what was used on the other mutants. He even says himself that the cure he made can only be used on himself because he injected himself with a unique strain of FEV that would let him retain his intelligence. For that matter, if you wait too long to bring him the cure, he eventually goes hostile, indicating the fact that he goes feral like the other Super Mutants if you take too long to cure him.
It does have to do with tracking, go back and play through the H2-22 quest line. Here, I'll even pull up the mission names for you: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Boston_After_Dark http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Memory_Interrupted Both Doctor Amari and Old Man Stockton talk about it. The memory wipe is something completely different than changing their appearance. Those 2 don't mutually go together. Not all synths have their memories wiped, as proven by Glory in the Railroad HQ.
For that matter, where is it mentioned that synths can magically disable the chip that would be used to track them? I certainly don't recall that being mentioned anywhere at all. Considering it's lodged in their head, it's almost impossible that they would be able to do it on their own without some sort of outside help.
Finally, yes the Courser chip allows the Courser to teleport around, but the Institute still has full control over it. For example, if you start to piss the Institute off after working with them, Father himself will teleport you into this little prison-like area and berate you. He teleports you using the same signal that you use to get in the Institute, meaning that yes, the Institute has complete control over their teleportation technology.
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Theinnerfish
Storytelling skeleton
Science takes time. No matter his motivations that strain of F.E.V is created during these experiments and the cure is for that strain. Though yes it's not perfect and subject still loses it's faculties in time, 10 years is short time for scientific progress. Yeah using F.E.V stupid but hey! Everyone uses it...
Sorry when you said Memory Den i thought you mentioned memory wipe. It was a long post and missed it.
Well considering player uses it to infiltrate the institute i say it's not secure to give everyone and also they're not fool proof, they can be hacked or disabled. There are at least two organization in the commonwealth capable of usurping a courser chip. It's simply not reasonable give it everyone to lower risk of few synths escaping here and now. Considering Ayo somewhat close to catching Linet it's only a matter of time they stop the escapes.
It also allows to teleport from anywhere from the institute. How could they track who goes out or in if everyone has a courser chip?
Synths having help. Let's say what happens if Binet was(or is since it's highly possible he's capable) able to disable a chip? Now they lose a synth and completely compromise the security. How could they trust every synth or human in the institute with a courser chip? When it's apparent that some synths are independent and at least one scientist works with them.
DirtyOldShoe
Some kind of lucky
Can you guys try to make this conversation a bit more interesting? maybe some profanity? Mention Todd or something? It just needs a bit of spice.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Wait, are we trying... seriously trying to explain the Institute?
Because...
Because...
DirtyOldShoe
Some kind of lucky
Fixed it for you Dr Fallout
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Let's get this part star....
God DAMNIT!
Stop derailing the thread!
God DAMNIT!
Stop derailing the thread!
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Thing is, that argument doesn't really fly when it comes to Super Mutants. I understand science takes time to produce positive results and all that, yeah, but usually it isn't with something that turns people into murderous Jolly Green Giants. Think about this for a moment, these immoral bastards are kidnapping every day people like you and me, dunking them into these tanks just to see what will happen, and then they either kill your new mutated self or, for no reason, "tag" you and release you into the wild like you're a goddamn Pokemon. Considering they weren't getting ANY positive results and were turning literally THOUSANDS of people into mutants over the course of a decade without a SINGLE positive thing happening, it should have been shut down, plain and simple. Otherwise it goes from being scientific to being pure insanity. These people aren't just cloning harmless butterflies or something for 10 years, they're creating massive mutant monsters that can rip a man to shreds in 2 seconds with its bare fists.
Now to compare this to something similar, The Think Tank made Cazadors and Nightstalkers in mass and released them onto the Mojave after tagging them, but here's the difference: The Think Tank are fucking insane. They've gone completely bonkers and think there's nothing outside of the Big MT, so it's perfectly okay to release their creations outside the mountain because nothing else exists in their mind. So essentially, what this means is, in order for the Super Mutant experiments to make ANY logical sense, everyone working in the FEV lab and Father himself would have to be certifiably insane to continue the project. And clearly, they aren't. Thus it's a huge plot fart.
Ah, well, you're right fella. I forgot about the Institute's little spy working with the Railroad. Fair enough point, he would most likely have the knowledge to disable the chips and all that. Here's my line of thinking though: Even if Binet is able to disable these chips, the Institute is going to figure out damn quick that it has a spy on its hands, unlike in the game, since in this scenario every synth has a tracker chip. Now if you're monitoring these chips and all of a sudden a bunch of them start going offline, wouldn't you be suspicious as Hell and report it? After that I feel like Synths would be more closely monitored. On that note, because the Institute wouldn't have to dedicate literally years of work to the Synth Courser project since the number of runaway Synths would probably be massively reduced, I'd imagine they'd focus on making teleportation technology better so that anyone using one of these chips couldn't just use it to enter the Institute and wipe everyone out. Of course, that's all just speculation and conjecture on my part.
On the OTHER other hand though, think about this: The whole reason the Railroad exists in the first place is because of the massive influx of Gen III escapees as of late. They're a big organization because there's a big outbreak. Hell, half their order is made up of Gen III Synths. I feel like if what I said was true, and the Institute was able to improve on their teleportation technology since they wouldn't have to focus on Synth Coursers and they found the spy because of all synths being tracked, I feel like there would be far fewer escapees. Thus the Railroad not only loses a brunt of its workforce, it may not even know Gen IIIs exist in the Boston area. If my theory is correct, that means the only Gen III escapee the Railroad would be aware of is Harkness. THus there organization would be much smaller, pretty much eliminating one of the main factions that could remove the Courser Chip. Let's also not forget, yeah, that the Brotherhood wasn't even around the time the game starts, so the Institute wouldn't be worried about the Brotherhood tracking their synths down. Up until halfway through the game, the Brotherhood don't even exist in Boston. And finally the Minutemen aren't a threat either since, up until you get out of the Vault, there's only 1 of them left, Garvey. Thus there would be pretty much no one to steal the courser chip in this alternate history, at least until the Brotherhood arrives.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
The man wants to have an actual debate over whether the Institute makes sense or not, I'm willing to oblige. This is no time for jokes, this is serious business. It's finally time to show off my debate skills and prove why the Institute is the most plothole-riddled faction in the whole franchise.