Asbestos Religion Thread

[Ilosar]

Bal, you do realize that your attitude is the very reason islamism is so strong nowadays, right? These guys didn't wake up one morning telling themselves how fun it would be to blow themselves up. Constant pressure and repression from West-backed governments as well as many other slights (invading Irak at the drop of a hat for instance) has more or less forced them to take up arms or be crushed. Egypt is a good example of this; it's either a US backed military dictatorship or islamists. Yet you make it sound like they hate the West just for kicks. And the idea of exchanging one soldier for a thousand civilians has worked so damn well in Irak. More massacres are definitely not a solutionto anyone's problems.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Bal, you do realize that your attitude is the very reason islamism is so strong nowadays, right?

Well aware of it in fact. I also realize that we must make the best out of a terrible situation. Certain actions have fostered increased resentment from religious fanatics, that is very true. Now that those powers are raging to the degree they are, do you really think concessions from the West and Israel will cause them to back down?

Neither side is completely innocent in this, and neither one can make a concession great enough that will cause real change without losing significant power and influence. Never have I tried to convince anyone here that Israel is in the "right". I have always wore my bias proudly, and I have no intentions of converting anyone here. We all play with the cards which we are dealt, and Israel is doing what it feels is in it's best interest with the current lay of the land. I just don't see many realistic solutions at this point in time that either side would be willing to make.


And don't misinterpret my civilian casualty comment. It was meant to illustrate my mindset, not that I advocate some mass killing spree. I love my country, and I have nothing but respect for those who serve it. There is not much I would not advocate we do if it meant saving the lives of Americans and our allies. Granted I get the easiest way is to just not be put in those situations, and I agree again. As I said before however, you make the best of a bad situation.

 

[Sabirah]

Yes yes, because those Officers were in such terrible fears of their lives when they laughed and heckled at those militants they engaged in the air from a good mile away. Seriously, have you ever watched one of those videos? Those guys on the ground have no idea what hit them, it is rather fascinating to watch from a technological standpoint.

Or you know, you could just google up one of the dozens upon dozens of videos of Marines and Soldiers calling in artillery and airstrikes on targets and listen to some of the things they say when they watch it come in. Granted this is just what you can find on the internet, my personal experience with my friends who have come back is much more explicit on how they feel, but that is anecdotal and we will not go there.

So your point is that the US Military is staffed by psychopathic man-children?

Eh, Uncle Yusef called it.

I can see somebody trivializing an actual death where real people died is if they are sociopaths or teenage boys with severe aggression issues.

And I am neither, I just care little for the deaths of the enemies of a country that I personally hold dear and is an ally of my country.[/quote]

So next time the Pakis try and kill us Indians I should think of them as dirt under my feet?

Logical.

Besides, I simply said a few short sentences, it is not as if I droned and on and on about how glad I was that they got absolutely smashed. To be perfectly honest, I was not taking the conversation very serious. I look back fondly on something that I see as a great victory, it is something I can joke around about. You see it as a travesty and a crime. That is the difference here between us.

Taking people's deaths so lightheartedly is bad though. It's like if in casual conversation I brought up the day my aunt killed herself. It's disrespectful to the dead.

My feelings on the subject of war and death are quite well known here. I have the greatest respect for the sacrifices that our servicemen/women, and allies make. The deaths of our enemies are of less of a concern to me. I would not trade a single Marine, Soldier, Airman, or Sailor, for a thousand Iraqi or Afghani civilians.

Not trying to be mean here. But that sentiment is disgusting. if you seriously feel that way and are not screwing with me you sicken me.

Are you familiar with the indoctrination and culture American
troops are exposed to on a regular basis? There are a few good psychology papers written on it that you can google up. Becoming friends with a many enlisted Marines or Soldiers will also get you the same taste though. Hadji is not just a popular racial slur, it also helps remove the human element from the people they have to fight. When you remove the human element from something, it makes it easier to take its life.

Which is a bad thing. How is that any different from Osama telling his "men" that all Americans are the spawn of satan and that Indian people eat corpses?

Note the laughter, applause, and cheers of approval from his fellow Marines at the 3:15 mark in the video. I posted the lyrics from that section below.

[spoiler:9377c7c042]So I grabbed her little sister, and pulled her in front of me.

As the bullets began to fly
The blood sprayed from between her eyes
And then I laughed maniacally

Then I hid behind the TV
And I locked and loaded my M-16
And I blew those little f*ckers to eternity.

And I said…
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
They should have known they were f*ckin’ with a Marine.[/spoiler:9377c7c042]

As I said before, psychotic man-children.

For the most part though, on these forums a staunch pro-Israeli stance is in the minority. Which is fine, I have no interest in winning anyone over.

There's a reason for that you know.

All is not bleak though, times have changed and Israel will never stand alone if there was a true attack against her. Could you imagine the fury of the Western world that would descend upon the Middle East if Nuclear Weapons were used against Israel?

Because those middle easterners are so evil guys. I mean all us damn Muslims do is try and kill people, It's not like the entire world is trying to hold us down or anything.

"I am a Zionist," "You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Truer words have never been spoken.

That bufoon's opinions count for nothing.

Do not worry about Israels fate, you should worry about the fate of the millions surrounding Israel should she ever have to take a last stand. Thankfully that will not happen, The West will be there if it comes to that.

What mature people "YOU GUYS CAN'T HAVE MY (not actually there's anyway) LAND. NOBODY CAN *kills billions of innocent people*

 

[.Pixote.]

Certain actions have fostered increased resentment from religious fanatics, that is very true.

Fanaticism goes both ways, Zionist fanatics are just as dangerous as Islamic ones. Looks like Israel has a lot of wars to look forward to in securing the "Promised Land"...

 

[Mettle]

On all the religious dissent;

 

[Token-not-found]

On all the religious dissent;

It's the percentage of those acts that matter and the percentage of doers and enablers.

How many of atheists are proponents (or agree with) of anti-religious terrorism?

How many christians are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism ?

How many muslims are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism?

How many budhists are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism?

 

[Mettle]

It's the percentage of those acts that matter and the percentage of doers and enablers.

How many of atheists are proponents (or agree with) of anti-religious terrorism?

How many christians are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism ?

How many muslims are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism?

I'm curious to hear about those anti-religious terrorist acts really, because that's something I've never heard or read about to be honest.

 

[Atomkilla]

I'm curious to hear about those anti-religious terrorist acts really, because that's something I've never heard or read about to be honest.

 

[Token-not-found]

It's the percentage of those acts that matter and the percentage of doers and enablers.

How many of atheists are proponents (or agree with) of anti-religious terrorism?

How many christians are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism ?

How many muslims are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism?

I'm curious to hear about those anti-religious terrorist acts really, because that's something I've never heard or read about to be honest.

Exactly- i was trying to tell you that your argument about "all religions are equally totalitarian/destructive/evil/whatever" is simply BS.

Some are more than others, some much more.

 

[Mettle]

I'm curious to hear about those anti-religious terrorist acts really, because that's something I've never heard or read about to be honest.

Exactly- i was trying to tell you that your argument about "all religions are equally totalitarian/destructive/evil/whatever" is simply BS.

Some are more than others, some much more.

Nope, they are equal bullshitters, totalitarians, most definetly destructive and evil. Most definetly on an intellectual level if not physical level.

Creationism, anti-abortion "protesters" and similar comes to mind. Both christian and muslim proponents on those sides, though I've heard mostly of the southern parts of the US in those cases.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Exactly- i was trying to tell you that your argument about "all religions are equally totalitarian/destructive/evil/whatever" is simply BS.

Some are more than others, some much more.

The field is rather wide and it is so complex and diverse that such general statements are pretty much never true.

First. There is no "united" religion to speak so. Take the Christian religion or the Islam. There is obviously the "religion". But it has so many different sects, beliefs and sides to it that it is pretty much impossible to speak from a united "group" which you would need you want to explain how "some" religions are more violant then others - not to mention that both Christians and Muslims had very violant parts in their history either aginst others or even them self. I mean who in their sane mind would compare the violant sects with the catholic church ? I mean it is not even like all catholics agree among each other as the church in Rome is definetly different compared to the catholic groups/churches in the US.

people see places like Afghanistan and watch something in TV without any serious back ground education (and I am not just talking about the knowledge that there is the "Islam" and the "Christians"). It requires a bit more then that. Knowledge about history and the evolution inside the religions. To know why there are Sunni Islam and Shia Islam - and what the difference between it is would be a good start.

its really not a "black" vs "white" situation.

 

[Token-not-found]

Exactly- i was trying to tell you that your argument about "all religions are equally totalitarian/destructive/evil/whatever" is simply BS.

Some are more than others, some much more.

The field is rather wide and it is so complex and diverse that such general statements are pretty much never true.

First. There is no "united" religion to speak so. Take the Christian religion or the Islam. There is obviously the "religion". But it has so many different sects, beliefs and sides to it that it is pretty much impossible to speak from a united "group" which you would need you want to explain how "some" religions are more violant then others - not to mention that both Christians and Muslims had very violant parts in their history either aginst others or even them self. I mean who in their sane mind would compare the violant sects with the catholic church ? I mean it is not even like all catholics agree among each other as the church in Rome is definetly different compared to the catholic groups/churches in the US.

people see places like Afghanistan and watch something in TV without any serious back ground education (and I am not just talking about the knowledge that there is the "Islam" and the "Christians"). It requires a bit more then that. Knowledge about history and the evolution inside the religions. To know why there are Sunni Islam and Shia Islam - and what the difference between it is would be a good start.

its really not a "black" vs "white" situation.

Really ?

We can quantify the different practices and teachings in religious text and in common behavior and beliefs of the different representative groups.
It pretty much is black and white .

We are not interested in small sects, we are interested in the big chunks and those are easy to find and quantify.

 

[Sabirah]

It's the percentage of those acts that matter and the percentage of doers and enablers.

How many of atheists are proponents (or agree with) of anti-religious terrorism?

How many christians are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism ?

How many muslims are proponents (or agree with) religious terrorism?

I'm curious to hear about those anti-religious terrorist acts really, because that's something I've never heard or read about to be honest.

They're are psychopath atheist terrorists. They just usually don't kill in the name of atheism. They fill the void of religion by believing in or devoting to political concepts a lot more (take PETA for example).


And then of course they're is Mao and Stalin, who tried to murder all the religious people of they're respective countries

Really ?

We can quantify the different practices and teachings in religious text and in common behavior and beliefs of the different representative groups.
It pretty much is black and white .

We are not interested in small sects, we are interested in the big chunks and those are easy to find and quantify.

Nothing on earth is black and white and saying so is complete nonsense. Then again you are an established skinhead so I guess I can't reason with you.

 

[Ilosar]

And then of course they're is Mao and Stalin, who tried to murder all the religious people of they're respective countries

That's less because they were religious and more because they were in the way. These regime certainly didn't stop at those that had faith.

Really ?

We can quantify the different practices and teachings in religious text and in common behavior and beliefs of the different representative groups.
It pretty much is black and white .

We are not interested in small sects, we are interested in the big chunks and those are easy to find and quantify.

Except said teachings in religious texts are almost always so vague that the interpretation matters much more than what is written. This is even more of a problem with, say, Islam because there's no unified voice, so whatever the Imam says must be true, if you are a follower. Even then, there are the various divisions in the faith to account for, and they have a long history of beating the crap out of each other (just like Catholics and Protestants, so I guess we're not much better after all).

If you want to go by behavior, the Catholics also did more or less the exact same thing the Muslims do today, except it was in the form of several mass invasions. In religious conflicts (as in most others, too, but especially in those) there's abslutely no good side.

 

[Crni Vuk]

and it still happens even today when you consider that religion is still a very important part of our politics. Those people which really think that religion and politics are seperated are quite naive. When was the last time you had a buddhistic black president in the US ? I know I am exagerating. But it is just to make a point. It took the US long enough to accept some half black president. Think about it how far he would had come in the 50s. Probably not further then to the back seats in a bus. Not to mention several presidents and politicans of the US took the "in god we trust!" literaly before invading some nation. May I just remember to Bush ? If he is saying that he is doing it for god then he is defending freedom. If some mulah in Iraq says he is doing it for god he is a fanatic zealot. The truth is though that both use the masses for their targets and that god probably has nothing to do with it at all.

We are not interested in small sects, we are interested in the big chunks and those are easy to find and quantify.

Aaaalright. How well is your knowledge of both the Bible and the Quaran ? And why is that a source of "violence" ? As like people always follow it. If you want it that way you could say the bill of rights is a source of extensive violence because I have no clue how many times a president of the United States used the "defending freedom!" to invade or bomb some nation into oblivion.

Religion for it self is neither good nor bad. It is the use and interpretation. We have a brain for a reason. Thats why I said the topic is quite complex. Making it a "black" vs "white" situation sure does not help anyone. And neither does it make the situation less violent in the end. You are just going to push those people in the wrong direction which are rather moderate about their beliefs because if you all throw them all in one basket dont be surprised if they yell back. - And we all know americans are fat, uneducated people with no culture right ? Stereotypes are so fun sometimes.

 

[Alphadrop]

They're are psychopath atheist terrorists. They just usually don't kill in the name of atheism. They fill the void of religion by believing in or devoting to political concepts a lot more (take PETA for example).

How the heck is PETA and psychopath atheist group? Most of them are religious people who target atheist scientists.

 

[Sabirah]

They're are psychopath atheist terrorists. They just usually don't kill in the name of atheism. They fill the void of religion by believing in or devoting to political concepts a lot more (take PETA for example).

How the heck is PETA and psychopath atheist group? Most of them are religious people who target atheist scientists.

Religion is an "energy" I guess you can say. People who are not devoted to their faith are super devoted to other stuff (like people devoted to TV shows to the point of dressing up as character and making acting childish in public). Atheist terrorists would kill in the name of political concepts rather than in the name of religion. PETA being an example (fyi every vegan I ever met was an atheist so anecdotal evidence more than anything). Like religious people they restrict themselves from doing certain things (for instance, a guy we had at the hospital a while back refused to take insulin derived from a pig. It ultimately killed him unfortunately ) and like religious people they might act irrationally in the name of what they believe in (Stalin killing all the Christians in his country, Kim Il Sung doing the same)

What it all comes down to is everyone has something they would act irrationally for. EVERYBODY.

 

[PainlessDocM]

And then of course they're is Mao and Stalin, who tried to murder all the religious people of they're respective countries

Nice, the old retarded false cause fallacy. Not sure if you are serious, trolling or just kidding.

 

[Tagaziel]

It's more likely just lack of education. I can't speak for Mao (haven't researched the subject), but for Stalin et al, religious people weren't the target of persecution, religious authorities (priests etc.) were, and even then, not everyone. Religion was viewed as danger to the revolution (or rather, Stalin's own twisted interpretation of it) and were often openly attacked.

Stalin never issued a "Kill ALL Christians" policy. Furthermore, arguing that the Soviet Union and related totaliarian countries were atheist is stupid, as the State was supposed to REPLACE religion, not eliminate it.

 

[popej]

They're are psychopath atheist terrorists. They just usually don't kill in the name of atheism. They fill the void of religion by believing in or devoting to political concepts a lot more (take PETA for example).

How the heck is PETA and psychopath atheist group? Most of them are religious people who target atheist scientists.

Religion is an "energy" I guess you can say. People who are not devoted to their faith are super devoted to other stuff (like people devoted to TV shows to the point of dressing up as character and making acting childish in public). Atheist terrorists would kill in the name of political concepts rather than in the name of religion. PETA being an example (fyi every vegan I ever met was an atheist so anecdotal evidence more than anything). Like religious people they restrict themselves from doing certain things (for instance, a guy we had at the hospital a while back refused to take insulin derived from a pig. It ultimately killed him unfortunately ) and like religious people they might act irrationally in the name of what they believe in (Stalin killing all the Christians in his country, Kim Il Sung doing the same)

What it all comes down to is everyone has something they would act irrationally for. EVERYBODY.

It's a bit far fetched to link atheism to some extreme members of an 'anti-cruelty to animals' organisation. Their Raison D'etre has nothing to do with faith and thus the analogy is misplaced.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to say this anyway? No reasonable person condones the acts of terrorists, regardless of what they represent. They're all just as loopy as each other. You're treading on thin ice a bit though. People who don't pursue faith are just that, people who don't pursue faith.