Asbestos Religion Thread

[Yamu]

Good people will do good for those that they perceive to be "their people" but often enough that good comes at the expense of people who are not "their people." It happens along nationalistic and idealistic lines as well as religious ones. Human nature is what you're railing against. Religion is merely a vehicle for it, a tool that, like almost any other, can only be as good or as evil as the wielder. Has it had atrocities perpetrated in its name? Yes, all throughout history. Do you honestly think that people wouldn't have hated and persecuted one another over their differences without it, though? Really?

The bad in religion is a codification of the bad in humanity. Ultimately, it is the effect, not the cause.

 

[Sabirah]

It is harmful to the individual

So is literally any social movement ever. True freedom is anarchy and anything opposite to that is detrimental to the individual

promotes wars, terrorism,

In some people. In some people the desire to see the world unpolluted leads them to kill innocent people, what's your point?

discrimination, racism,

When I went on the Haj when I was 17 I saw more races living, believing, and loving together than anywhere else (and I live in New York, Melting pot of the earth)

impedes the progress of science,

Hindus created surgery. Muslims modernized Math. Christians made Navigation easy

instills false beliefs,

Because what you think is automatically right. Forgot that you knew the entire make up of the universe and all existence.

indoctrinates into sheeplike state of mind, seeks submission to braindead mythical dogmas,

Plagiarism is bad sahib

encourages subjugation of women

I'm so subjugated guys. That's why the Koran says that Allah views all people as equals. Didn't you know it was written on opposite day?

promotes homophobia and child abuse.

Not really. Most religious people I know (including myself) are pretty okay with gay people. And how do religious people hurt kids? that's a universal trait of humanity I'm afraid.

It is a tool whereby the masses can shortly relieve their suffering via the act of experiencing religious emotions. It is in the interest of the ruling classes to instill in the masses the religious conviction that their current suffering will lead to eventual happiness. Therefore as long as the people support religion, they will not attempt to make any genuine effort to understand and overcome the real source of their suffering.

There is no one source of suffering just as there is no one source of joy in the world. I hate loud music and love kids for instance. My Husband loves black metal and wants to delay us having a kid for as long as possible it seems to name one example.

The various modes of religion which are all considered by the people as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the politician as equally useful. Religious suffering is, at the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Plagerism is bad.

D- see me



With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.[/quote]

 

[.Pixote.]

Arabic culture is strongly intertwined with popular Islam and Hijabs are in style with the Arabs so the rest of us ended up wearing it.

Hijabs (Head scarfs) were first worn by 1st century Christian women. Grace Kelly looks pretty good in one.

When I went on the Haj when I was 17 I saw more races living, believing, and loving together than anywhere else (and I live in New York, Melting pot of the earth)

The problem I have with Islam is those born into it have little choice. If you even think about leaving the religion, or converting to another, there is a high chance of being ostracized (at best), or murdered. There is very little tolerance for others. I recommend you do a comparative study of every major religion.

I have a friend who is a moderate Muslim, I asked her "Is it possible to leave your faith", her answer was a "Not really", so I said "You have no choice as to what religion you follow, its been forced on you!" - her response was - "If you converted to another, most likely you will be outcast from your family and society"...


People can change their ways, just ask the headhunting Dayaks (errr, they still do occasionally take a head or two). Most people might look upon their tradition as outrageous, but to them it was an important part of their life, one persons disgust is another's norm. Considering they have been engaged with headhunting for thousands of years before the 4 big religions showed up, maybe there's something we can learn from the Dayaks.

But while organized headhunting may have died out in that part of the world, there seems to remain a cultural tradition that equates heads with dark magic. That, at least, strikes us as the most credible explanation for a beastly crime that just occurred in Assam. The perpetrators made off with the heads of six, including two young children. As noted in our book, the heads of kids were once highly prized as talismans, the logic being that such baubles are especially tough to obtain given the natural protectiveness of parents.

 

[Crni Vuk]

...

And many of the things you mentioned are as well true for a democracy. Or since when do the US or Europe for that matter do things for "others" and not "themself" ? Or does one really believe all those troops around the world are really there with the intention to guard the civilians ? If there would not be more goals then just "peace" behind it neither European nor US politicians would give a rats ass about those nations (be it Afghanistan or the Iraq). But its very complex. There are for sure political, ideological and economical reasons behind all those. It was always that way since the first ruler waged ware against another leader. Democracy is seen today as a very good system - because we are born and raised in it. But it is good for "us". Because we can enjoy the benefits of the freedom we buy on the shoulders of others like Africa or the middle east (parts of it at least). Others have to be poor so we can be rich. We waged many wars and conflict in the past 50 years in the name of "freedom". Just for which freedom ? Ours or theirs ? Things are almost never only black or only white you know.

demonising religion because of some negative actions sure is not a good thing as the potential for harmful actions are in all idealogies, be it political or religious motivated ones. It always happens when people take their beliefs to the extreme not showing tolerance to other options - it is not about to "accept them as true" or anything it is only about "tolerating" those giving them room to exist.

I don't mean this as insult but it seems not like you posses a very high knowledge about religion in general. I suggest to educate your self about it better. And I don't recommend books which start with "religion is bad". Unbiased views help to form your own opinion not just writing what others have already said for a million time now. It is here about the individual actions. Every human is capable of doing bad and good things. The same is true for religions. IT depends more on the people then what they really follow. If people follow some group/religion only to manipulate others and for greed then of course you will see many bad actions - scientology for example. But this is not the case with every group or every religion. There are many ways in the Islam which follow peace. Same for Buddhism for example. Or the moderate Christian beliefs of which some even think homosexuality to be natural.

The problem I have with Islam is those born into it have little choice. If you even think about leaving the religion, or converting to another, there is a high chance of being ostracized (at best), or murdered. There is very little tolerance for others. I recommend you do a comparative study of every major religion.

I have a friend who is a moderate Muslim, I asked her "Is it possible to leave your faith", her answer was a "Not really", so I said "You have no choice as to what religion you follow, its been forced on you!" - her response was - "If you converted to another, most likely you will be outcast from your family and society"...

Thats true for many things. I admit religion has a high focus on it. But this is correct for our beliefs as well. I don't direct this to you but in general "we" (the western world) see at others from a pretty high horse.

Now do a little test. Go to your friends telling them

1. I am die hard communist now. But hey I still love you.

2. I believe in Alah as my god and mohammed as his prophet and its the only thing I believe is really true. But hey I still love you.

3. The government should be lead by a single good person without elections. But hey I still love you all.

Now keep attention to their reaction. Do you really had a choice when it came to your "teachings" ? don't get me wrong! I am not saying communism or fascism is a "great" thing. But some people for sure believe they do. Maybe some would prefer a state with a clear leader. A beloved father figure. We are lucky enough that we have been born in a system which gives us choices. But if we want it or not we will be always shaped by our own experiences and teachers (be it the parents, school teachers, friends, etc.). You realize that heavily when you move from one place to another. A russian who moved to the US will still stay a Russian even if he gets his papers. Thats why the US is such a melting pot. It took people some time to "change". And at some point some never do (China town or little Italy are the try to preserve some part of your old roots).

At the moment it is simply modern to just "condemn" all kind of religion as whole. You see many generalizations thrown around and people don't even get them self familiar with the subject. prejudice and ignorance are everywhere common. Not just with religious people.

 

[Sabirah]

The problem I have with Islam is those born into it have little choice. If you even think about leaving the religion, or converting to another, there is a high chance of being ostracized (at best), or murdered. There is very little tolerance for others. I recommend you do a comparative study of every major religion.

I have a friend who is a moderate Muslim, I asked her "Is it possible to leave your faith", her answer was a "Not really", so I said "You have no choice as to what religion you follow, its been forced on you!" - her response was - "If you converted to another, most likely you will be outcast from your family and society"...

She must have a conservative family. My parents wouldn't really care if I converted. As long as I continued to be a good person they'd still accept me.

The only person I can think off the top of my head who is like that is my mother in law. (whom I still love to death) She seems to have issues that her little catholic boy is snuggling up with a Muslim every night but I think she will get over it soon. It has after all been only a year and a half.

 

[Moe Canibo]

It is harmful to the individual

So is literally any social movement ever. True freedom is anarchy and anything opposite to that is detrimental to the individual

Except that there is a big difference between harmfulness brought to individual by say a Denmarkesque democracy and harmfulness brought by indoctrination, discrimination, gender violence, dogma worshipping, etc.

promotes wars, terrorism,

In some people. In some people the desire to see the world unpolluted leads them to kill innocent people, what's your point?

Only difference being that wars led in the name of invisible man in the sky throughout history brought more horror and death then if right now some Save Whales group wiped the planet squeaky clean with rad mushrooms.

discrimination, racism,

When I went on the Haj when I was 17 I saw more races living, believing, and loving together than anywhere else (and I live in New York, Melting pot of the earth)

Why do you think i have something against islam per se. I'm talking about every organized religion in general.

Christianity turned blind eye or silently promoted slavery and slaver capitalists as long as it existed in USA, English, Brazil, other south American countries, etc.

The monstrousity that was Apartheid was the machination of some of the Calvinist and other christian churches.

Most of the Mormons deny black people to hold the priesthood, and continue to deny activity in the church due to race.

I wont list any further or any other religions.

impedes the progress of science,

Hindus created surgery. Muslims modernized Math. Christians made Navigation easy

Are you for real? This is one of the most self evident things that really needs no explanation and stretches to this very day. Are you really trying to argue this of all things?

instills false beliefs,

Because what you think is automatically right. Forgot that you knew the entire make up of the universe and all existence.

No i don't, but teaching someone that a mythical fairy tale is true as opposed to a logical fact backed by a million of other logical proven facts is simply fuckin retarded.

indoctrinates into sheeplike state of mind, seeks submission to braindead mythical dogmas,

Plagiarism is bad sahib

Um what?

encourages subjugation of women

I'm so subjugated guys. That's why the Koran says that Allah views all people as equals. Didn't you know it was written on opposite day?

You really belive this? You, a muslim of all things are trying to argue if women are oppresed as opposed to males? And please don't give me some verbal acrobatics about this, everyone knows what was the position of women in religions like christianity and islam since the dawn of time all the way til now in some places.

promotes homophobia and child abuse.

Not really. Most religious people I know (including myself) are pretty okay with gay people. And how do religious people hurt kids? that's a universal trait of humanity I'm afraid.

Mainstream organized religion is pro choosing sexual orientation? Wow, this is a new one. What's next, black Pope?

EDIT: forgot to explain the child abuse part. Sorry.

It is a tool whereby the masses can shortly relieve their suffering via the act of experiencing religious emotions. It is in the interest of the ruling classes to instill in the masses the religious conviction that their current suffering will lead to eventual happiness. Therefore as long as the people support religion, they will not attempt to make any genuine effort to understand and overcome the real source of their suffering.

There is no one source of suffering...

No, there are many, many of wich are trying to get camouflaged and muffled via the process mentioned above.

The various modes of religion which are all considered by the people as equally true, by the philosopher as equally false, and by the politician as equally useful.

Religions die. Every single religion that existed since the dawn of mankind has died. For hundreds of years people are slowly taking off the shackles of religion and turning to reason and logic. Every single day the children of men kill a piece of dogma and mysticism. Every single day the people are getting more and more liberated from the lies, corruption and the hipocrisy of organized religion. Good job peole of Earth. Viva the goddamn fuckin brain.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Except that there is a big difference between harmfulness brought to individual by say a Denmarkesque democracy and harmfulness brought by indoctrination, discrimination, gender violence, dogma worshipping, etc.

you might reconsider that though.

Only difference being that wars led in the name of invisible man in the sky throughout history brought more horror and death then if right now some Save Whales group wiped the planet squeaky clean with rad mushrooms.

yet some of the bloodiest conflicts ever faught have been not faught because of religion (See Alexander the Great or the first and second world war).

Why do you think i have something against islam per se. I'm talking about every organized religion in general.

Its not good to throw out generalisations though. All religions have the potential to be harmefull. But they also have the potential to do good things. It is not a black vs white.

 

[Yoshi525]

I'm not religious in the slightest, never have been. In fact, my upbringing was extremely atheistic and I was taught to hate religion, namely because of the persecution it's caused my family in the (distant) past. My ancestors were Gnostics, and were driven out of Italy by the Inquisition (those that escaped the Dominican's fire that is), they then settled in Devon, only to be driven out half a century later (again by the Catholic church). Fast forward 350 years, and they were driven back to England by the French Revolution.

Not that this does or should have any bearing on me now, though it did when I was younger. Until five or six years ago, I immensely disliked religion, particularly the Catholic Church. Nowadays I've mellowed out a lot and agree with what Crni and Yamu have already said. Still, some deeply buried and buffered part of me (and I'm aware there maybe an element of irrationality and unfair labelling here) really dislikes monotheistic beliefs that incorporate complex priesthoods.

I'm fully aware that the Catholic church has contributed many good things to this world, especially to the arts. Still, the dark side of me will laugh if I ever live to see the final collapse of Vatican power.

I'm not articulating this well; I suppose my point is that whilst religions cannot be inherently good or bad - if these qualities exist at all then they are confined to intelligent life - however the relative affect different religions have on culture and individual persons, varies greatly. Some religions are definitely more likely to inspire extremism, violence and discrimination of an unpleasant kind. Buddhism/ Hinduism compared to Christianity/ Judaism/ Islam. Obviously that's a gross simplification of the issue, not least because of the vast number of subdivisions in each faith, I'm sure you see what I'm getting at though.

yet some of the bloodiest conflicts ever faught have been not faught because of religion (See Alexander the Great or the first and second world war).

Even though I agree with you, the devil inside me feels the need to critique this. Whilst religion was not an important factor in the aforementioned wars, it's worth noting that the world would probably be a much worse place if no one had fought Hitler, or if Alexander of Macedonia hadn't been a bloodthirsty and ambitious fellow. Hell, the same applies to many historic conquerors who were driven by ambition rather than faith. Gaius Julius Caesar caused (directly and indirectly) the destruction of loads of cultures, faiths and hundred of thousands of innocent lives. The deterministic nature of history is such that it's impossible to extrapolate the consequences of any theoretical historic change, however on balance I think Caesar’s actions did wonders for Europe in the long run; him having the balls to finish off the Republic of Rome and lay the seeds for Octavian’s Empire, saved the continent a lot of trouble.


[/quote]

 

[Tagaziel]

it's worth noting that the world would probably be a much worse place if no one had fought Hitler

Actually, the world would probably be a much worse place if Hitler didn't pick a fight with Stalin, starting what's possibly the bloodiest conflict in history.

 

[Sabirah]

Snip.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI[/youtube]


Oh, and take it from somebody who works in an actual scientific field instead of just pretending to be rational on the internet, Science only functions correctly when you have competing opinions. Everybody blindly parroting the same thing is the antithesis of science and that's why popular atheism is just as limiting as most religions.

 

[Tagaziel]

Seriously? Popular atheism is as limiting as religion? How is a simple world view of "no deity exists" even comparable to intellectual constructs entirely basing on an unproven, unverifiable assumption that a supernatural entity exists? Why not claim that not taking drugs is just as destructive as taking them?

Quite frankly, that's a beautiful example of a straw man. Particularly because "don't be a dick about things you don't like" only really applies to things that haven't been screwing over humans for centuries and still try to, even as their power wanes (eg. Christians).

 

[Walpknut]

Atheism is only an action of not believing in a "god" is not a religion and two atheists don't think the same way necessarily. People that think that being atheist is becoming part of a group are idiots...

 

[Sabirah]

Seriously? Popular atheism is as limiting as religion? How is a simple world view of "no deity exists" even comparable to intellectual constructs entirely basing on an unproven, unverifiable assumption that a supernatural entity exists? Why not claim that not taking drugs is just as destructive as taking them?

Quite frankly, that's a beautiful example of a straw man. Particularly because "don't be a dick about things you don't like" only really applies to things that haven't been screwing over humans for centuries and still try to, even as their power wanes (eg. Christians).

Because they don't stop with "God doesn't exist"

They push it into "God isn't real and everyone who believes in him is a retard and should be killed arrrglebarrgle anger anger rage"

 

[Walpknut]

Sabirah likes her strawmen.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm fully aware that the Catholic church has contributed many good things to this world, especially to the arts. Still, the dark side of me will laugh if I ever live to see the final collapse of Vatican power.

That is something I can agree with. But this shows how complicated that topic is. Because Religion =/= Religion. Neither the catholic nor the muslim world are one united "mass" to speak so. Particularly the catholic church knows many different interpretations. And to say that. I am not a friend of the vatikan. But that has nothing to do with the religion itself. There are many local priests and followers which do good work.

No one here is trying to convince anyone that the invisible man in the sky exists or that religion has not been a source of violance and murder. - But remember one thing. Many "wars" have been sold to the Western world in the name of freedom. Like in Korea or Vietnam. And at least some of those have been rather "questionable". Everying that is pushed to the extreme can be a bad thing.

Strange enough some have the idea religion (as whole ...) would be the worst of all reasons why people kill/torture/conquer others even though there are enough examples which show that the reason "why" actually others take their sword or rifle to lay some waste in parts of the world where they dont belong are very complex. Or do people really believe for 1 min. the only purpose of US soldier in Vietnam was to "secure the poor asian guy and defend freedom ?".

Power and the strive for it go a long a way. And this is just as much true for religions like it is for any political system that is not using religion as their base.

You will find very few historicans which focus only on religion or calling it outright "evil" because that is not professional. You analyze the circumstances and you will find many times that if something has disadvantages in one way it will as well have many times advantages. The Christian church for example was known for its crimes. But the other side is that parts of it helped to preserve history (particiularly during the world wars), educating people and supporting many fine arts.

Because a few like to make it simple: Take it like a hammer. A hammer is a tool. A tool which is used to build houses and crafting objects. This is something positive usually. But on the othe side a hammer could be used to kill or injure someone. There are even hammers which are only weapons. Does it mean the hammer (as whole) is inherently "evil" now ? Its not just black and white. It depends on the use of the tool.

 

[Tagaziel]

Because they don't stop with "God doesn't exist"

They push it into "God isn't real and everyone who believes in him is a retard and should be killed arrrglebarrgle anger anger rage"

Way to overgeneralize. I assume you believe in some deity and don't like pointing out that it's all hinging on the assumption that it exists?

People have opinions. If you can't handle people pointing out holes in major religions or the inherent irrationality of faith, well, that's your problem not theirs.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Way to overgeneralize. I assume you believe in some deity and don't like pointing out that it's all hinging on the assumption that it exists?

Ah. Right. And people can "prove" you with a 100% chance that god does not exist ?

 

[Walpknut]

Tagaziel didn't say anything about either one being right 100% he just said people have opinions.....

 

[Sabirah]

People have opinions. If you can't handle people pointing out holes in major religions or the inherent irrationality of faith, well, that's your problem not theirs.

Yes they do. That's why I hate it when people like that new guy last page tried to make me out to be some villainess because I DARE to believe in Allah.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Tagaziel didn't say anything about either one being right 100% he just said people have opinions.....

Yes I know. My bad. But thats why I am so surprised how some can be die hard atheists. Nothing wrong with pointing out "holes". But one should really not cling to much on those because many things contain holes or inconsitencies and yet we believe in it. Somehow.