Avatar

Well Uncanny, I still disagree with you when your assuming most soldiers/mercs are bloodthirsty savages. If anything, the same message of tolerance that the left promotes often doesn't apply to those they are criticizing. Does history prove you right with atrocities? Yes. However, there are also examples of where people stood up for morality. Does good news make the covers usually however? Most often no.

But back onto Avatar. I still say this movie was the biggest pile of propaganda that I have ever seen worthy of Michael Moore.

Lets break some things down.

Welsh says Terminator and Aliens were both propaganda films. Was there propaganda, sure. However, the two movies were not nearly as bad as Avatar.

Aliens: Sure Wyeyland Yutani sent colonists to their doom. However, that was a small part of the whole movie. If anything, the movie was more about the survival of two different species. Were the Aliens helpless little hippy children compared to the big bad horrible over powered Marines? I think not. One side had technology while the other had brutal speed, stealth and wicked reproduction rates. Had the movie been realistic, Ripley would have been killed with the rest of those marines. In the end, both sides did a shit load of killing.

Terminator: Hmm, it wasn't if the machines were helpless little toys just being slaughtered by an overwhelmingly superior force (like the movie Toys). These guys had tanks, plasma weaponry, aerial gunships, shocktroops, etc, etc. If anything, we were getting slaughtered. Again the machines weren't helpless children being slaughtered by big bad humanity. Again, both sides did a shitload of damage to one another.

Corporate Greed: Yes there was an element with corporate greed. However, the movies weren't about imperialism/victimisation/guilt so much as human folly. In Aliens, it was humanities desire to harness a new and potent weapon. In Terminator, it was the same thing. If the movie was about victimization, it was more humans victimizing humans than vice versa. Both movies were about failed human attempts to develope weapons. The same weapons that ended up standing up for themselves and ripping us a new one.

Avatar was a whole another bag. I mean comeon man, the humans were so big bad and mean to the poor little defenseless blue children that the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET rose up against us. You might as well say God hates humans and is stirring up another flood.
 
As I recall, the planet rose up against the humans because Jake warned their deity that they would fuck the environment and kill her. Humans lose not because they can't coexist with the natives, but because they can't coexist with anything.
 
DarkCorp said:
Well Uncanny, I still disagree with you when your assuming most soldiers/mercs are bloodthirsty savages.
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Oh come now, I never said anything of the sort. I merely said that mercenaries and career field soldiers and marines enjoy violence/shooting things, it's why they continue to do what they do.

DarkCorp said:
If anything, the same message of tolerance that the left promotes often doesn't apply to those they are criticizing. Does history prove you right with atrocities? Yes. However, there are also examples of where people stood up for morality. Does good news make the covers usually however? Most often no.
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Most certainly and I don't think anyone is saying any different. I think it would be interesting to see more movies that did such but it's going to need to be the focus of your story. Hell, since there are going to be sequels they could always throw it in a sequel now that the conflict has been established.

DarkCorp said:
Welsh says Terminator and Aliens were both propaganda films. Was there propaganda, sure. However, the two movies were not nearly as bad as Avatar.
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True but I'd say that's because they used more subtlety than Avatar, a film that threw in a line to connect it to the current "wars" in the middle east. It's also a difference in genres, Terminator and Alien were both Sci-Fi action horror films whereas Avatar was a space opera.

DarkCorp said:
Corporate Greed: Yes there was an element with corporate greed. However, the movies weren't about imperialism/victimisation/guilt so much as human folly. In Aliens, it was humanities desire to harness a new and potent weapon. In Terminator, it was the same thing. If the movie was about victimization, it was more humans victimizing humans than vice versa. Both movies were about failed human attempts to develope weapons. The same weapons that ended up standing up for themselves and ripping us a new one.
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Avatar is about imperialism motivated of corporate greed, which really isn't that knew of an idea, it's just that the only corporation heavily involved in orchestrating imperialism until the latter portion of the 20th century was the Catholic Church. All of the other imperialism was completely nation based.

DarkCorp said:
Avatar was a whole another bag. I mean comeon man, the humans were so big bad and mean to the poor little defenseless blue children that the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET rose up against us. You might as well say God hates humans and is stirring up another flood.
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The Na'vi weren't described as being helpless, in fact they were described as being like they were in the final scene. The problem was that their first fight with the marines made them look helpless (including the paper arrows which bounced off of the glass) and they had a come back later. I'm with you, having Eywa send all of the animals against the marines was a load of shit (one of the scenes in the film that made me cringe), it was extremely shittily employed deus ex machina. If he really wanted such a solution I think that having set up some decenters earlier and having had them come to the rescue could have been a great solution, but I guess it's less nature wanky (oh no!) and requires more setup (a reasonable reason, though not in this case). Again, the movie had some major story telling issues in spots.
 
34thcell said:
As I recall, the planet rose up against the humans because Jake warned their deity that they would fuck the environment and kill her. Humans lose not because they can't coexist with the natives, but because they can't coexist with anything.
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Your right. See the message being sent here. Humans are so bad they can't co-exist with anything. Might as well call the whole species a bunch of blood sucking leeches draining the Earth or whatever planet they arrive on.

Had the movie had hardline Navi who took a "do unto them before they do unto us" approach it wouldn't be so bad. But all I remember was the big evil humans blowing up homes and watching the Navi cry over their countless bretheren being killed.

I mean I paid nine bucks to see a James Cameron movie, not a Michael Moore/Al Gore movie.

PS: God if I wanted a guilt trip, all I need to do is go to the local or school library.
 
34thcell said:
As I recall, the planet rose up against the humans because Jake warned their deity that they would fuck the environment and kill her. Humans lose not because they can't coexist with the natives, but because they can't coexist with anything.
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It's really not as profound a thought as you'd make it seem.
 
Uncanny Garlic said:
Oh come now, I never said anything of the sort. I merely said that mercenaries and career field soldiers and marines enjoy violence/shooting things, it's why they continue to do what they do.
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So in other words:

Mercenaries and career field soldiers and marines enjoy inflicting violence on people/animals/things/etc. They also seem to enjoy shooting people/animals/things/etc. How is deriving pleasure from putting a hole in a persons face not bloodthirsty?? Or how does deriving pleasure out of bombing the shit out of people not construed as sadistic??

Uncanny Garlic said:
Most certainly and I don't think anyone is saying any different. I think it would be interesting to see more movies that did such but it's going to need to be the focus of your story. Hell, since there are going to be sequels they could always throw it in a sequel now that the conflict has been established.
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Well I think the movie "Doomsday" did it quite well. [spoiler:d105424407]Towards the end of the movie, Rhona Mitras character is tired of political assholes. So she secretly records Vinnie Jones's character stating that entire civillian sectors are expendable in order to maintain the status quo. Then towads the end of the movie, the recording is played on a gigantic monitor in the middle of London. Heck, the whole scene took ten minutes I think.[/spoiler:d105424407]

Uncanny Garlic said:
Avatar is about imperialism motivated of corporate greed, which really isn't that knew of an idea, it's just that the only corporation heavily involved in orchestrating imperialism until the latter portion of the 20th century was the Catholic Church. All of the other imperialism was completely nation based.
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The crusades were about corporate profiteering. The Knights Templar basically started the whole banking industry. The christians in Constantinople were massacred by fellow christians. Thats has more to do with greed then "the war against the infidels". One of the crusades was fucked altogether because the crusaders were too busy working as hired muscle.

All this shit can be found in history, I don't need Cameron force feeding it to me.

Uncanny Garlic said:
The Na'vi weren't described as being helpless, SNIP
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Dude, without Captain Planet, those Navi would have been obliterated. How is that NOT being helpless?
 
If I may be so bold as to interfere in the discussion...

Avatar is the most boring piece of shit I've ever seen.

There.

But I kind of tolerated the first hour and a half... Before the story kicked in...
 
You guys are all thinking too hard about this movie....

Did anyone think this hard and criticize Star Wars so much back in 1977?

Yeah but it still is an awesome, if cliche, movie....

And so is Avatar....


Clearly, Avatar was inspired by Star Wars..
 
Verd1234 said:
You guys are all thinking too hard about this movie....

Did anyone think this hard and criticize Star Wars so much back in 1977?

Yeah but it still is an awesome, if cliche, movie....

And so is Avatar....


Clearly, Avatar was inspired by Star Wars..
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I don't know if the people in Star Wars are classified as humans but since they look and act like them, lets just say they are humans. As far as I remembered in the movies, there was no racial bigotry, PETA advertisements, and nature abuse by one specific side, which is the biggest mouth piece of Avatar. It was just the normal cycle of people who have power and those who want power but do not have it.

Was there a story about a hegemon and an underdog, sure. Howevere, this wasn't nearly abused as badly as Avatar. Like I said, we were engulfed in an ocean of Navi misery being dished out by their cruel human oppressors. Was every scene in SW involving women and children getting brutally slaughtered. The only one i remember was the planet Aldeeron being exploded. Was one specific culture continuously favored over another?

I will break it down like this.

Humans: Besides the scientists and Michelle Rodriguez, they are all cardboard cutouts. Every other human was bad. Every scene involving humans besides the scientists were portrayed negatively. This was magnified as we were continually reminded that Jake Sully was pretty much a dumbass until he became a Navi (everyone should know the word Scown by now). Its like all the non-scientists humans were pretty much evil dark jedi/sith lords.

Navi: Every scene with them was painted with a favorable limelight. They were eco-friendly and were always harmonious with both the world and other Navi. Lets mention a direct example. When Jake ges saved by the Navi girl, she hates him. For what reason you might add? Just for not being fucking super stealthy and skilled like the Navi. I mean he was attacked by hounds but it was "his fault because he wasn't quiet enough and he was to blame for all their deaths", you gotta be fucking kidding me. I wouldn't be suprised if Cameron had a healthy donation from PETA.

Humans: Not one iota of human culture was explored or expanded upon (even in coversation). Although we are barraged by an un-ending dose of Navi culture. Plenty of Navi families, with women and children, singing and living peacefully. Anything like this on par with the humans? Nope. Not even a small scene where some non-military or even military personnel were writing/speaking to their families and children back home. Nope, apparetly the majority of humans are greedy, emotionally detached jackals worried about profit.

How could this movie be construed as anything else but a one sided propaganda film. Again as others and I have mentioned, no subtlety whatsoever.
 
I think you didn't really focus on understanding the setting of the movie. Sure, most of the humans are portrayed as evil, but you don't send send treehuggers to strip-mine a beautiful, virgin planet, amirite?

Second, Jake got reprimanded for causing an unnecessary loss of life with his clumsiness, caused by not understanding the ecosystem (case in point: using fire instead of natural forest luminescence).

Third, if human "culture" was to be explored, it'd take at least half an hour more an consist of basically watching dead concrete supercities on a barren, lifeless world (AKA Earth). As it stands, the overview of the world is in Cameron's scriptment, available here and in the companion game.
 
Tagaziel said:
I think you didn't really focus on understanding the setting of the movie. Sure, most of the humans are portrayed as evil, but you don't send send treehuggers to strip-mine a beautiful, virgin planet, amirite?
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Let me try an example that hits closer to home ok. All of us were pretty much against Fallout POS and Fallout 3. Then we had some people here who vented their frustration in not the best way (underserved flames, spouting hate speech and random hate nonsense). Does that mean every one of us at NMA can be generalised as such? We all felt strongly about the Fallout franchise being raped but we all responded to it differently. Rosh for example declared total war and apparently wanted us to harass F3 every step of the way. Apaparently some others here disagreed. Its called diversity, something Cameron chose to ignore.

I mean, how many times do I have to say this. Yes corporations can be dicks. Yes its the fucking leaders of these corporations that are dicks. The future in Cameron's eye is pretty nightmarish right. Food is lacking and pretty tasteless. Massive overcrowding. Human life pretty much means shit. So imagine the people who work for these ginormous corporations and how they manage to eek out a living. Sure the chance being a whistleblower is slim, (well not that freggin slim because apparently the enviornmental groups are one of the strongest in the land) doesn't mean it can't happen. And once again the story teller can write how it happens anyway they want as long as they so choose to. I mean if the Earth is wrecked to shit, do you honestly believe that human fuckasses are continue to cause problems like Cameron believes? Not one sarcastic comment about how copororations are continuing its mindless rape of worlds? Not one word of disagreement between a corporate worker to his children and family at home? Its one thing to not live long enough to see the error of our ways and and quite another when we see and feel everyday, the results of our poor past decisions and continue to act the way we do.

Tagaziel said:
Second, Jake got reprimanded for causing an unnecessary loss of life with his clumsiness, caused by not understanding the ecosystem (case in point: using fire instead of natural forest luminescence).
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And how does that negate my comment earlier? The guy is new to the planet for god sakes(had a crash course correct?). Many of us don't even know what to do if left in the wild ourselves and we live on this planet. Sorry PETA, in a conflict between me and a hungry animal, I am going to choose me all the way.

Tagaziel said:
Third, if human "culture" was to be explored, it'd take at least half an hour more an consist of basically watching dead concrete supercities on a barren, lifeless world (AKA Earth). As it stands, the overview of the world is in Cameron's scriptment, available here and in the companion game.
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Hey you know what, its Camerons script. He can make humans us as cluless and complacent while our planet wastes away as he wants. I mean we have starships, colonised the moon, have badass military gear, even FTL travel it sounds like but guess what? We are too stupid to figure a solution to help re-energise the Earth. See, its easy to cultivate human hate when you start that 3 hour guilt trip strong. The more shit slapped on humanity, the cooler, nicer, more angelic the Navi are right? Oh, lets not forget to mention the Navi are pretty much a direct allegory to certain cultures, or to be politically correct, to one extreme side of the political spectrum.

Propaganda, pretty much the very definition of presenting a certain side in a favorable light while completely ignoring all other possibilites.
 
I am finding this conversation rather interesting, although I admit that I havent' seen the films. But honestly, you guys are a bit off.

From what I've read, there a are humans with redeeming qualities in Avatar. If most of the humans are "bad guys" because they work for what is essentially a plot by a natural resource exploiter... well? Are you telling me these people haven't been depicted as bad before.

Let's look at two better mercenary flicks- The Dogs of War (small group of mercenaries sent to small African country to orchestrate a coup and put in an oil company's man in office- mercenaries get moral conscious and put in a nice guy instead). And then there is Wild Geese- mercenaries raid country to release imprisoned political leader and get betrayed by oil company looking for a better deal. So you do have a couple movies out there about mercenaries who do something out of morality. But then, they are also being paid for it.

Does this happen- well, in Africa it does where Heritage Oil helped set up a deal with Executive Outcomes to prop up a corrupt regime in Sierra Leone and other places. Has it happened in the past? Well, yes. There are complete island nations that got wiped out by trading companies for spices or other resources. In other cases, companies have used privileged connections to overthrow regimes (see US in Chile or Guatemala). Bad, but then the Belgians used to decapitate people for not getting them enough rubber in Congo. So, come on folks, when it comes to money, humans have a great history of doing pretty nasty shit.

Are mercenaries evil, bloodthirsty people? Well the
history of mercenary companies is not a good one. For example, see Machiavelli's caution against mercenaries in Italy. But because they are blood thirsty? No, because they are profit driven.
If you missed Machiavelli's theories, you might like this history-

http://www.amazon.com/Mercenary-Com...orical-Political/dp/0801857880/ref=pd_sim_b_3


I doubt mercenaries do it because they like violence, but because they have a set of talents and want to be paid for it. The difference between them and soldiers is that a soldier does it for the state, the mercenary does it for money. Does it make them evil? Well, they might say it pays the mortgage. But then, remember "Thank you for Not Smoking" is a film about what people do to pay the mortgage.

Does that make them evil? Well- you are hired to kill people for money.

Another similar depiction of mercenaries and corporate greed- The Descent-
http://www.amazon.com/Descent-Jeff-Long/dp/051513175X

Awful.

Anyway- I think the problem with this is that its too much cliche. But that's me.

Darkcorp- is what pisses you off is Cameron's vision of humanity, you must have been really pissed off with Walle.

As for films being commentary-
28 Days later is in someways a nightmare film about AIDS
Invasion of the Body Snatchers = Red Scare.
District 9- you think its a coincidence that it takes place in South Africa?
Starship Troopers- is a joke about facsist propaganda films.

Sci-Fi and Horror are often at their best when they are used as vehicles for social commentary. Harlan Ellison's work is largely commentary and its great.

As for Cameron's take on soldiers- lets not forget that Reece and Hicks are both soldiers and creatures of Cameron's imagination. Bad guys?
 
welsh said:
Anyway- I think the problem with this is that its too much cliche. But that's me.
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I agree. My problem isn't that he has a negative vision of humanity, but that the actual portrayal of it is badly done. The simplicity, lack of gray area, lame references to real-life situations/organizations/cultures, and its closeness to being propagandistic ruined it for me. It really is too much cliche.
 
Welsh said:
I doubt mercenaries do it because they like violence, but because they have a set of talents and want to be paid for it. The difference between them and soldiers is that a soldier does it for the state, the mercenary does it for money. Does it make them evil? Well, they might say it pays the mortgage. But then, remember "Thank you for Not Smoking" is a film about what people do to pay the mortgage.

Does that make them evil? Well- you are hired to kill people for money
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Kill when NECESSARY. Thats the key word. How about the protection details for heads of states and VIPS. A good example are people like terrorists and whack jobs like John Hinkley Jr. Or how about defending convoys or helping train civillian militaries around the globe. Does that automatically equate to genocide? So every soldier and merc is a My Lai trooper or a BlackWater asshole employee right. Great way to generalise.

Did you read the script? Probably not since you have not seen the film. Life on Earth is hell. People try to make a better life for themselves anyway they can. So a soldier risks his life for his country even though the pay is shit. Then, when they are finished with their service, these people have a choice to make. Go back to a soul sucking job that pays the same shit pay or actually get paid more for the same shit they did in the military. It shouldn't be that hard to believe because guess what? That sounds kinda like our present shit economic situation and Walmart and Super Targets. Thats why I am sick of this high horse propaganda message being shoved down my throat.

Welsh said:
Darkcorp- is what pisses you off is Cameron's vision of humanity, you must have been really pissed off with Walle.
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I am more pissed off at the people who expect me to love Avatar and swallow their guilt message without question. Those who criticise its message are labled idiots who don't don't know what they are talking about or are just looking too deep into the message and making shit up. This discussion is almost like a standard Fallout rape discussion.

Wall E was a pixar/disney movie right? Disney is already known for its simplefied portrait of life. Thing is thats good for innocence in children. Uh, Avatar was for adults who can think for themselves. Once again I have given examples of how Camerons other movies contained themes but was done with great subtlety and class. Then we get Avatar.

Welsh said:
As for films being commentary-
28 Days later is in someways a nightmare film about AIDS
Invasion of the Body Snatchers = Red Scare.
District 9- you think its a coincidence that it takes place in South Africa?
Starship Troopers- is a joke about facsist propaganda films.
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Word here is COMMENTARY, not a guilt tripping, totally un-realistic hippy message. See, in a commentary, many themes usually get explored. An example would be Night Of The Living Dead. Sure it was about communist fears but also about racial barriers, and nuclear weapons. I mean the film isn't some guilt trip where we are barraged by a never ending slideshow of racist redncecks lynching countless blacks. Hell, the black man in the movie was a leader and someone to be looked up to.

My problem isn't with social commentary. Its about movies with simplified dumbed down messages for the masses, kinda like what happened with the Fallout franchise. I have a problem when people try to treat me like an idiot and expect me to swallow shit like it was candy and smile afterwards.

Welsh said:
As for Cameron's take on soldiers- lets not forget that Reece and Hicks are both soldiers and creatures of Cameron's imagination. Bad guys?
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And this is why I was so surprised. Someone normally known for subtlety and balance just dishes out something like Avatar. Yes, soldiers can be professional thinking people with emotions. People arn't just fucking cardboard cutouts like Hudson or Burke. Humanity can be shown to be fighting for their survival as well ALA Terminator.
 
actualy surprising how Cameron has displayed the marines in Aliens right after vietnam when it was not uncommon to just generalise soldiers.
 
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