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[Ah-Teen]

I also think you're reading too much in a little face paint.

No, they aren't.

And the whole "We'll fight terror with terror" line made no sense in the film and was simply a bad political jab. Damned senseless jabbery.

My brother hated it when they so overtly explained things like the last shadow. Me, I choose to take it as if that is just that marine's personality. I've known more than enough marines that would say shit like that.

If I just take it as a typical hero movie, and not dare venture into it's murky political depths, then it was ok. Nothing spectacular. Fun and lots of shiny.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Just watched it and I really enjoyed it. It was the first film I've seen in 3D that used the 3D to enhance the film instead of as a gimmick. I really don't get what all of the hubbub over the plot is, it's a pretty standard affair (granted, the standard is pretty low). There were clearly a lot of problems and the film could be better if they were fixed but it managed to be good in spite of them.

Unobtanium should never had made it into the final script, that's just plain laziness. The "Fighting terror with terror," line didn't fit at all and was hitting the audience in the face with a political hammer (regardless whether or not you agree with the sentiment). The logic/cohesion was severely lacking in some parts, [spoiler:b60b55c661]such as the arrows bouncing off of the windows in one scene then breaking them in the final fight. Having Ewyn (or whatever) send reinforcements made no sense.[/spoiler:b60b55c661]
That said, I thought that there were some great "so bad it's good" moments in there, such as pretty much every scene with Papa Dragon.

Yeah but the majority of humans present were presented as ruthless fucks and the only exception were those who would typically not be dicks IE scientists, which were like what 4 out of how many?

There was the pilot as well and how most of the humans acted made sense. Killing off indigenous people in order to get their land or resources is well established in history and given that a corporation was calling the shots with apparently no restrictions on killing the natives, it made sense. Should they have just used orbital bombardment on them instead of fighting them on the ground? Yeah, but "unobtanium's" effects on technology (which were not as shown to be as big as they were said to be), it works (or should have worked).

 

[OakTable]

You know, it says something when a director brings shit up in tie-ins and interviews and then forgets it when it comes to the real movie. What's unobtainium and why is it so expensive? Well too bad for you, standard movie goer. You're gonna have to dig it up online.

And what the fuck was with that whole "Terror with Terror" thing?Are people STILL bitching about the War on Terror? I mean god damn, I didn't like Bush but he didn't fuck up THAT bad with it. And it's not like the new douchebag we have for president is any better.

 

[Violator]

^^ Unobtanium? And yeah, GB is a major fuck up *refrains from entering a toungue*

 

[UncannyGarlic]

You know, it says something when a director brings shit up in tie-ins and interviews and then forgets it when it comes to the real movie. What's unobtainium and why is it so expensive? Well too bad for you, standard movie goer. You're gonna have to dig it up online.

It really doesn't matter what it's for (though I agree that I like to hear such explanations), it just matters that it's an extremely valuable resource that one party wants. For example, gold and silver were unobtainiums of the New World. The difference is instead of countries seeking gold and silver, it's a corporation after some made up material. My issue with unobtainium was the name but fortunately they didn't call it by it's name too much, they really just used it to set up the conflict. Honestly it was a MacGuffin that was pretty much forgotten about in the third act (ie the epic battle), which was a problem.

And what the fuck was with that whole "Terror with Terror" thing?Are people STILL bitching about the War on Terror? I mean god damn, I didn't like Bush but he didn't fuck up THAT bad with it. And it's not like the new douchebag we have for president is any better.

Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq would disagree, along with most of the rest of the world. Regardless, the point is that the line didn't make sense in the movie and shouldn't have been there.

EDIT: By the way, was anyone else reminded of Albion by the movie? I haven't played much of the game (in fact just the start) but the overarching plot (human corporation mining worlds with primitive native species and killing off said natives), world (tropical), and races (humans and cat people) seemed damn similar.

 

[DarkCorp]

There was the pilot as well and how most of the humans acted made sense. Killing off indigenous people in order to get their land or resources is well established in history and given that a corporation was calling the shots with apparently no restrictions on killing the natives, it made sense. Should they have just used orbital bombardment on them instead of fighting them on the ground? Yeah, but "unobtanium's" effects on technology (which were not as shown to be as big as they were said to be), it works (or should have worked).

Yes, I have no doubt that SOME humans are like that. What, so just because a corporation is calling the shots does that mean every person in that corporation is a homicidal savage? Camerons film sure portrayed it that way down to the "human hate speech in CLEAR CONTRAST to the blue elf cat people hippy speech". I mean serously, everyone in the entire room was like the stereotypical marine spouting shit like "Killem All and Fuck yeah lets get some".
Way to go John Kerry style with generalizing the military. Its this kind of fucked up shit thinking that does our soldiers injustice these days.

And what about the clear racism involved. I mean crap, one either became one, or atleast was dressed up like a wannabe elf hippy or they were the homicidal savages. I think all the scientists who didn't die in the end of the movie clearly made themselves into the Navi. An example would be if James Cameron told every white peron/s to either become native americans somehow or forever be vilified as evil white devils. Yeah imperialism is bad but understand that every country has been imperialistic at one time or another. But does that mean every english, japanese, german, chinese, french, etc, etc, citizen an imperialistic savages, I think not.

 

[34thcell]

Keep in mind that they were basically mercenaries, not soldiers.

EDIT The whole reason anyone came to the planet was for a huge payout (aside from the scientists). And its not about SOME people being "like that" its about the overwelming majority simply doing what they're told to do.

 

[Maphusio]

Wow, I find everyone's outrage and or disappointment in this film amusing. Many claim its some sort of propaganda film... I think it ludicrous to think James Cameron of all people is behind a propaganda film. With that said this film does have a basis in our social political past and it does have a powerful message, "Don't repeat our ancestors nightmarish atrocities".

I did not see so many parallels between events transpiring today than I did yesterday. In the beginnings of the white settlement of America, the white man (Europeans) decided to decimate any native population that got in their way. Instead of following many scientists (Franklin Benjamin for one) recommendations and learning from them ("The noble savages") and co existing with them it was decided to obliterate them, rape them and their land for the white mans benefit. What they did not understand was that any conquered people must be integrated into the new native population or you will face descension or possibly a worse fate. Well over 100 years later the USA still faces large problems politically and otherwise with the native American population. We are still paying for our ancestors mistakes after generations.

This script is 16 years old, written between 90' and 94' according to Cameron and all historical accounts. No this does not mean Desert Storm had a heavy influence on the story line, if it had, there would have been a third race of people involved (recall, Iran / Iraq / USA/NATO were involved in that war). Some have brought up the "fight fear with fear" quote... That's not a new concept, that has no intimate ties to what has transpired in our world over the last decade. It's a simple Sun Tzu'esque tactic that has been used for thousands of years. It seems insulting to consider otherwise.

In short, this is an action film with a story that should not illicit this much controversy. I think many are reading between the lines more so than anyone had intended...

 

[OakTable]

I don't want to go to a film BAAAAWING about White Man's Greed. I'm fucking sick of it. I had to go through 1 book on that every god damn year of school. Yes, I know, it's sad we owned them thoroughly for their land and goods, but you don't have to HAMMER IT IN EVERY FUCKING MONTH. I'd rather watch Transformers Fucking 2, and I hated that.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I think it ludicrous to think James Cameron of all people is behind a propaganda film.

Why? Because he's a good-hearted lefty? It's an anti-humanist screed. If it weren't so cliché and ham-fisted in the execution it would be incredibly offensive. The philosophy behind Avatar is obnoxious.

With that said this film does have a basis in our social political past and it does have a powerful message, "Don't repeat our ancestors nightmarish atrocities".

Wow, thanks, Mr. Cameron. How insightful.

I'd say the real message is, "There's a nature goddess living inside the Earth, and She hates science and discovery, so go back to living in trees or She will useth Her Divine Powers to smite thee."

In the beginnings of the white settlement of America, the white man (Europeans) decided to decimate any native population that got in their way. Instead of following many scientists (Franklin Benjamin for one) recommendations and learning from them ("The noble savages") and co existing with them it was decided to obliterate them, rape them and their land for the white mans benefit.

And it wasn't the soldiers who made those decisions. Greasy politicians either sold government appointments overseeing indian affairs to profiteers or benificently tried to civilize the natives by force. Native american culture was also extremely mysogynistic and oppressive to women. Also, when one tribe wanted something another tribe had, they attacked them and took it. When the Souix migrated west from Wisconsin and Minnesota they made war on the Crow and stole their land in the Dakotas, driving them into Montana. To know that, though, you actually have to know something about American history beyond a slogan.

We are still paying for our ancestors mistakes after generations.

Not enough for Cameron, apparently.

This script is 16 years old, written between 90' and 94' according to Cameron and all historical accounts.

I call BS. He wrote the phrase "Shock and Awe" 16 years ago? Sorry, but Avatar is chock full of Iraq references.

BTW, the blue elves are the Iraqis, and any other peace-loving non-white people victimized by America.

I think many are reading between the lines more so than anyone had intended...

Nope, just thinking critically about the dull-minded, suerstitious claptrap placed in front of me. Although I'm sure Cameron didn't intend anyone to delve that deep into it. We're supposed to accept it without question.

 

[PastaMasta]

It sucking fucked. More goddamn style over substance, no compelling story anywhere to be found. Just more "big bad evil corporation" bull.

I cannot disagree with you. On the other hand, I thought it had some redeeming qualities.

Of course it had redeeming qualities. However, the bad definately outweighed the good.

 

[Starseeker]

LOL, this is getting interesting. I am not one to defend the Chinese, but what about the Opium trade/war, and the resulting carving up of China by eight different countries?

In fact, what about the entire south east Asia?

And in your view, oppression of women is justified in forcibly "civilize" them/kill them? Sure they kill each other over resources, but who doesn't?

And isn't that the whole point? Economics. Humans and by extension, its society is inherently selfish, not really good or bad. They respond to incentives, and self advancement and protection. Cheaper, stronger, faster, and better.

I mean, it's all well and good to talk about evil humans and good natives, but they are both just responding to incentives. LOL, you can just as well imagine humans as a corporation with cheap imports and elves are trying to evoke tariffs to protect their own industries.

And the marine? He is just responding to his own reactions to incentives, companionship, freedom of movement and obtain a higher social status that he would never be able to get staying as a wheel chair marine. (they didn't invent robot legs for him?)

Btw, of course guilt sucks, so maybe that's why people get tired of it. And why are we talking about this in a 3D movie meant for entertainment?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Just watched it and I really enjoyed it. It was the first film I've seen in 3D that used the 3D to enhance the film instead of as a gimmick. I really don't get what all of the hubbub over the plot is, it's a pretty standard affair (granted, the standard is pretty low). There were clearly a lot of problems and the film could be better if they were fixed but it managed to be good in spite of them.

Then you undersand it !

To say it that way if this would been from Bay I would not say anything but I expected more then standart hubbub from Cameron.

 

[DarkCorp]

Of course it had redeeming qualities. However, the bad definately outweighed the good.

Besides visual effects I, don't see anything remotely good about plot. The final battle should have been a massacre but Cameron literally takes a shit load coincedences and gives the natives victory. I mean comeon, the entire planet comes to the defense of the helpless blue people. Apparently the humans are sooo evil and savage that the friggin planet has to declare war on them. Wow, talk about lack of subtlety with your message.

 

[Crni Vuk]

question now is ... what happens with humanity now that the marines have loost ... I mean if they dont get access to this very very ( mean very) important resource would that mean humanity as whole has to face a few very nasty issues

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

question now is ... what happens with humanity now that the marines have loost ... I mean if they dont get access to this very very ( mean very) important resource would that mean humanity as whole has to face a few very nasty issues

Someone already answered that question; in several months a large human fleet will arrive in the system and wipe out the natives from orbit with nuclear weapons or kinetic kill weapons (big rocks).

Or they will unleash powerful bio agents that quickly kill life on the planet (it is not as if we could survive on it unprotected).

There might even be some support back home for this action if the corporation spins this well, representing the aliens on the planet, the planet itself perhaps as a danger to human civilization.


Information net AI "For the safety and future of humanity, Pandora must be destroyed! Would you like to know more?"

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Yes, I have no doubt that SOME humans are like that. What, so just because a corporation is calling the shots does that mean every person in that corporation is a homicidal savage? Camerons film sure portrayed it that way down to the "human hate speech in CLEAR CONTRAST to the blue elf cat people hippy speech". I mean serously, everyone in the entire room was like the stereotypical marine spouting shit like "Killem All and Fuck yeah lets get some".

There weren't any people from the corporation there who were featured on screen other than the scientists and the guy in charge of the project. The guy in charge of the project only cared about profits but he was hesitant about killing all of the Na'vi, he basically just did what Papa Dragon told him to do once he committed.

Way to go John Kerry style with generalizing the military. Its this kind of fucked up shit thinking that does our soldiers injustice these days.

Most people will do what they are told by an authority figure, soldiers/mercenaries even more so, especially when it means getting the payout and getting out of there. I'd suggest reading up on the Milgram experiment. As for mercenaries being ruthless in an area that they are occupying, take a look at Blackwater's records in the military conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. For a somewhat contemporary example of the US military's brutality, look at Vietnam.

And what about the clear racism involved. I mean crap, one either became one, or atleast was dressed up like a wannabe elf hippy or they were the homicidal savages. I think all the scientists who didn't die in the end of the movie clearly made themselves into the Navi. An example would be if James Cameron told every white peron/s to either become native americans somehow or forever be vilified as evil white devils.

You're pulling that out of your ass, especially considering that the some of the last words of Sigourney Weaver's character was that she needed a sample of the tree. They were all fighting with the Na'vi against the marines because the marines were trying to commit genocide, the only person who went native was the main character. I'm not saying that other characters may not have went native later but given how the scientists acted throughout the movie, it seems unlikely that they would. Also note that the only other person with an Avatar who could become Na'vi was Joel David Moore's character. It was clearly going to be a much more symbiotic relationship than it had been before and the scientists were going to respect their customs but I see no reason that it wouldn't be something like how scientists who go to other cultures (including those which haven't been through an industrial revolution) live.

Yeah imperialism is bad but understand that every country has been imperialistic at one time or another. But does that mean every english, japanese, german, chinese, french, etc, etc, citizen an imperialistic savages, I think not.

A mining colony primarily made up of mercenaries and scientists which a particulary violent military leader and a greedy operation leader (who, lets face it, really didn't have that much control over the mercenaries) is in no way representative of a whole people/culture/whatever.

Some have brought up the "fight fear with fear" quote... That's not a new concept, that has no intimate ties to what has transpired in our world over the last decade. It's a simple Sun Tzu'esque tactic that has been used for thousands of years. It seems insulting to consider otherwise.

Oh I agree that it's rediculous to argue that it's a new idea but the whole line reaked of Iraq and Afghanistan, with Cameron having said that it wasn't the main theme of the movie but it was there. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-camerons-avatar/story-e6frg8pf-1225809286903

I'd say the real message is, "There's a nature goddess living inside the Earth, and She hates science and discovery, so go back to living in trees or She will useth Her Divine Powers to smite thee."

Do you seriously think that the message of the movie was that literal? I also really don't see it as bashing technology given that the "traitors" used whatever technology that they could grab in the final battle and the Avatars are extremely advanced technology. I'm not saying that there wasn't a tree hugging message there, just that loving nature does not mean hating technology.

I call BS. He wrote the phrase "Shock and Awe" 16 years ago? Sorry, but Avatar is chock full of Iraq references.

Maybe not 16 years ago but quite likely in the 90s, yes. It's hardly a new concept, in fact it's simply a euthanism for strategy of terrorism. Wikipedia cites it back to a military doctrine written in 1996 but I swear that the term was around before then.

To say it that way if this would been from Bay I would not say anything but I expected more then standart hubbub from Cameron.

I'm not really sure why, neighter the Alien movies (especially not Resurection), the Terminator Movies, nor Titanic had amazing plots. The Alien and Terminator movies were pretty straightforward sci-fi horror/action movies (with interesting setting designs) and Titanic was a very straightforward romatic tragedy.

Besides visual effects I, don't see anything remotely good about plot. The final battle should have been a massacre but Cameron literally takes a shit load coincedences and gives the natives victory. I mean comeon, the entire planet comes to the defense of the helpless blue people. Apparently the humans are sooo evil and savage that the friggin planet has to declare war on them. Wow, talk about lack of subtlety with your message.

I'm not so sure it has all that much to do with message but it was a really shitty plot "twist". What made me laugh was the arrows bouncing off of glass one moment then shattering it in the final battle and the fact that sensors and radios really weren't very effected. Again, cohesion problems.

question now is ... what happens with humanity now that the marines have loost ... I mean if they dont get access to this very very ( mean very) important resource would that mean humanity as whole has to face a few very nasty issues

I guess I missed the part in the film where they said that it would solve Earth's energy crisis.

I really hope that there isn't a sequel but given that the main actor was signed on with that in mind, I'm doubtful that we'll be so lucky.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm not really sure why, neighter the Alien movies (especially not Resurection), the Terminator Movies, nor Titanic had amazing plots. The Alien and Terminator movies were pretty straightforward sci-fi horror/action movies (with interesting setting designs) and Titanic was a very straightforward romatic tragedy.

But the characters feelt a lot more convincing and believable which made the movies outstanding compared to the "usual" action movies.

A movie doesnt need a super complicated or deep plot. Actualy most movies work in a very simple way. Even space odyssey or clock work orange dont have a exceptional complicated plot. What gives those movies usualy substance is the diversity in the characters.

Regardless if you now use Terminator or Aliens as example you will realise here a lot of focus on the characters while the action is more the icing on the cake. Particularly the movie Terminator 1 and 2 do not throw in the characters you see as fixed personalities from the begining either the rebel from T1 or the T800 from T2 change over the movie and start to become "more" human. Never noticed how both "good" characters in the Terminator movies tend to be more reckless in the begining of the movie and only after time change that attitude in a almost subliminal way? As said Cameron really has a skill for characters in his movies thus why I am so surprised that in Avatar which is somewhat a 3 hours movie the characters as so obviously ... one sided.

Doesnt mean its a bad movie though. But I doubt it would have got so much reactions it did if it would have been a movie done in traditional ways of filming with real actors, locations and not so much CGI background.

 

[Ah-Teen]

I like how you put it Vuk. Thinking back after reading that makes pretty good sense.

If I were to guess why character development suffered it may be because:

First he had too many characters; He had at least twelve big characters, and roughly six higher developed characters when other movies he made generally had far less, giving each big character more time to develop.

Second, he spent a lot of time showing off this super cool world he developed. Taking more time from character development.

You can see that he tried, but it was just too much to do for too many characters. Now if he had broken the film up into two or three films it would have been better I think. Like lord of the rings, they had a lot of characters but they also had enough time to develop all of them. Practical problem is how do you sell multiple movies to investors.

 

[DarkCorp]

There weren't any people from the corporation there who were featured on screen other than the scientists and the guy in charge of the project. The guy in charge of the project only cared about profits but he was hesitant about killing all of the Na'vi, he basically just did what Papa Dragon told him to do once he committed.

I could be wrong without seeing it again but if I remember correctly, the room where the evil head military guy was giving the battle speech wasn't just filled with combat personnel.

Most people will do what they are told by an authority figure, soldiers/mercenaries even more so, especially when it means getting the payout and getting out of there. I'd suggest reading up on the Milgram experiment. As for mercenaries being ruthless in an area that they are occupying, take a look at Blackwater's records in the military conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. For a somewhat contemporary example of the US military's brutality, look at Vietnam.

So once again just because some fuckups would do that means everyone is guilty? Once again it is clear that Cameron was trying to insert a political message. I mean fuck, those mercs might as well be labled with giant letters BLACKWATER FUCKOS here.

You're pulling that out of your ass, especially considering that the some of the last words of Sigourney Weaver's character was that she needed a sample of the tree. They were all fighting with the Na'vi against the marines because the marines were trying to commit genocide, the only person who went native was the main character. I'm not saying that other characters may not have went native later but given how the scientists acted throughout the movie, it seems unlikely that they would. Also note that the only other person with an Avatar who could become Na'vi was Joel David Moore's character. It was clearly going to be a much more symbiotic relationship than it had been before and the scientists were going to respect their customs but I see no reason that it wouldn't be something like how scientists who go to other cultures (including those which haven't been through an industrial revolution) live

Just because we have scientists going out to learn about simpler cultures doesn't mean they tear off their clothes and start wearing loincloths all day. I mean yeah, there are people who want to learn more about asian cultrue. It doesn't mean they are gonna change their eyes to look like asians. I mean I am cool with black people and even have some black friends but it doesn't mean I am going to speak ebonics and color my skin black. Getting the picture here? The fight was over and that scientist guy was still in his avatar. I was like what the fuck?

A mining colony primarily made up of mercenaries and scientists which a particulary violent military leader and a greedy operation leader (who, lets face it, really didn't have that much control over the mercenaries) is in no way representative of a whole people/culture/whatever.

Look at our history. African Americans are still blaming the white man for shit that happened way in the past. There is still animosity between most asians when speaking about the Japanese. I am sure there are quite a few Native Americans who are still miffed at caucasians. Better yet, look at the friggin middle east. You think the Palistinians are gonna just forgive and forget when Israel carpet bombs the fuck outta their cities and kill countless innocent civillians. I mean people are getting fucking carbombed and beheaded by terrorists to this day and animosity is rife. Look at Africa. How long have people been getting massacred because of "the hatfields and mccoys shit". Do you really think the Navi are going to have a forgive and forget attitude when it comes to humans because of what like, 4 of them were good??