Bethesda is destroying the gay legacy of Fallout

[Irwin John Finster]

I don't mind the backstory at all except I personally dislike the whole "I'm a frantic dad looking for my son" thing. It's cheesy and when he screams WHERE IS MY SON WHERE IS SHAUN! with that bad voice acting it makes me cringe.

There's a fine line between providing backstory and telling an entire story on rails. Fallout 4 is closer to an on-rails action game story than an RPG.

The gay/straight thing just provides further examples of how the character in Fallout 4 is more limited.

 

[Walpknut]

I think Fallout 4 has indeed crossed the line into an on rails narrative. I mean, just TRY to get to Kellog before rescuing Nick Valentine from the Vault, the button to his secret room is literary NON EXISTANT and you have no way to either skip parts of the main quest line or alternate paths to get to different parts of it. Hell, there are very few branching options on the Faction quest lines. This game also makes your character say things without asking you. You are barely even controlling anything on the main quest line.


I think just the fact that you are forced to be a prewar dad and a war veteran is bad enough. They could've easily fixed most of those problems by having a Trait System in place that allowed you to choose to be something else, like an Average Joe civilian, a Chinese Spy/Simpathizer, war Refugee, A Company's CEO, etc.

They would give you bonuses and penalties at the beginning, maybe start you off with the first rank of some perks, more money or whatever.

 

[Askorti]

Look at Fallout New Vegas: You start with a "relationship" with Benny, but it's entirely up to you if you're going to see that relationship flourish, end, or ignore it and leave it be. You are in charge of your story, you have many choices that alter it completely down the road.

In Fallout 4 you have no choices whatsoever. You can't just stop loving your kidnapped son, you can't opt not to search for him. What's worse, whether the BoS shows up in force in the Commonwealth stealthily depends upon you going after Kellogg. (And taking the elevator, because if you get out of Fort Hagen in any other way, they won't come)
The game is basically an interactive movie when it comes to the main plot, and it's not even that interactive...

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Yea I had to edit my post now that you two mention these things. The story is pretty much on rails.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Look at Fallout New Vegas: You start with a "relationship" with Benny, but it's entirely up to you if you're going to see that relationship flourish, end, or ignore it and leave it be. You are in charge of your story, you have many choices that alter it completely down the road.

In Fallout 4 you have no choices whatsoever. You can't just stop loving your kidnapped son, you can't opt not to search for him. What's worse, whether the BoS shows up in force in the Commonwealth stealthily depends upon you going after Kellogg. (And taking the elevator, because if you get out of Fort Hagen in any other way, they won't come)
The game is basically an interactive movie when it comes to the main plot, and it's not even that interactive...

Anyone else let Benny live? That cat was cool to swing with baby.

 

[TransgenderVaultDeweller]

That would have been an interesting idea to add in the new fallout game.

@Walpkunt Imagine if they actually thought it through.

They added a profession system where you have lots of background involving the pre-war job that would have gave bost to perks, special perks, Unique dialouge opitions and consequences if they built a story and world around it.


Then you would have your traits, Unique trade offs that give bonus and negatives in their respective way.


A system of flaws where you choose one flaw and gain one extra special, Perk to start with, Tag or something that makes the game more challenging and unique in its own way.

 

[Dr Fallout]

That would have been an interesting idea to add in the new fallout game.

@Walpkunt Imagine if they actually thought it through.

They added a profession system where you have lots of background involving the pre-war job that would have gave bost to perks, special perks, Unique dialouge opitions and consequences if they built a story and world around it.


Then you would have your traits, Unique trade offs that give bonus and negatives in their respective way.


A system of flaws where you choose one flaw and gain one extra special, Perk to start with, Tag or something that makes the game more challenging and unique in its own way.

Too complicated for the masses.

 

[MercenarySnake]

I like the pick a profession idea, it leaves you with different stats and bonuses unique to a certain character instead of the Bethesdian "become good at everything" nonsense. You could have upsides to the profession you have and downsides to your character, reminds me of traits. Would be great to collaborate on our own post apocalyptic game, you guys have such good ideas.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I like the pick a profession idea, it leaves you with different stats and bonuses unique to a certain character instead of the Bethesdian "become good at everything" nonsense. You could have upsides to the profession you have and downsides to your character, reminds me of traits. Would be great to collaborate on our own post apocalyptic game, you guys have such good ideas.

That would work best in an isometric game, mainly because the vast amount of dialogue to make the choices important are best done without voice.

 

[fakeangel]

Depends, I have no problem with a history or clear begining for the character, in fact some of the best RPGs out there follow that path, like Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment and many more.

The reall issue is that Bethesda doesn't know the difference between the nuances of role playing in a tight narrative and copying Mass Effect.

Not even Mass Effect was as rigid as FO4 is. It's not a commonly remembered part of the franchise, but the first game allowed you to choose what was your background (an earthborn orphan that was part of gangs and enlisted to escape that life, a colonist that had their home raided by batarian pirates, or a child of a marine family) and the defining moment of your early career (repelling almost single-handly a pirate raid during one of your shore leaves, being the leader of the group that massacrated the pirates of said raid, or surviving a tresher maw attack through sheer guts and determination). And each of these choices tilted your character to a way as well as giving a unique quest to each background.

In comparisson, you are either a military vet or a lawyer, either way, you are part of lovely family with a newborn.

Effort

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Depends, I have no problem with a history or clear begining for the character, in fact some of the best RPGs out there follow that path, like Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment and many more.

The reall issue is that Bethesda doesn't know the difference between the nuances of role playing in a tight narrative and copying Mass Effect.

Not even Mass Effect was as rigid as FO4 is. It's not a commonly remembered part of the franchise, but the first game allowed you to choose what was your background (an earthborn orphan that was part of gangs and enlisted to escape that life, a colonist that had their home raided by batarian pirates, or a child of a marine family) and the defining moment of your early career (repelling almost single-handly a pirate raid during one of your shore leaves, being the leader of the group that massacrated the pirates of said raid, or surviving a tresher maw attack through sheer guts and determination). And each of these choices tilted your character to a way as well as giving a unique quest to each background.

In comparisson, you are either a military vet or a lawyer, either way, you are part of lovely family with a newborn.

Effort

Mass Effect 1 is one of my favorite games. I'm glad they didn't make any sequels because usually they are just dumbed down caricatures of the originals that spit on everything that was good about the first game (I wholeheartedly deny the existence of the sequels although 2 wasn't unbearable).

 

[Ilosar]

You do realize that forcing a canon onto your character is nothing new. F:NV forced you to not only be a courier but also a key part of the Divide's success. F1's main character is canonically male and most likely Albert Cole, and I know there's more somewhere. Besides, maybe the whole Nora x Nate was a sham and they were pretending to be straight.

They had to give you some amount of backstory. Your character didn't drop from the sky. The Divide thing was IMO a bit of a mistake from New Vegas's part but at least it was just you triggering an event in the past and at worst simply established your character as not being very young.

What they didn't do is establish your character's sexuality right off the bat with no way for the player to interject. You cannot realistically roleplay a gay character in FO4, unless you heavily headcanon that it was an arranged marriage or that that you are two gay people who only married and had a baby for appearances, which is definitely not supported by the dialog during the intro since your spouse ceaselessly comments on your character's beauty during character creation.

The issue is even worse with a female character who has a law degree by default. So not only do you need to headcanon the considerable combat and technical skills that the female PC starts with, playing as a low intelligence female character makes no sense. You don't need to be a genius to get a law degree, but a certain level of intelect is required for sure.

This is, of course, on top of all the limitations imposed by a voiced character (which I can personally live with, being an avowed Bioware fan) and the dialog wheel (which I cannot live with because it's even worse than Mass Effect 1's).

And what you say about Fallout 1 was established after the game, in Fallout 2. The developpers deciding on a canon in order to make future games is OK. At some point they need to makes choices, and only recently have RPGs allowed you to carry over decisions (Bioware being the most obvious, and it doesn't always work out). The issue is when they already impose that kind of limitation before the game even starts. Want to play a gay dumb woman? You literally cannot unless you completely ignore the introduction. Whereas you can play any character you want in Fallout 1 within reason and it makes sense, regardless of the fact that FO2 makes many decisions canon by necessity.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

A system of flaws where you choose one flaw and gain one extra special, Perk to start with, Tag or something that makes the game more challenging and unique in its own way.

I've seen it in a game called Unrealworld. It's a hardcore (and I dislike that term but it applies here) rogue-like set in iron age Finland, and the character you make has to have a specific phobia or character flaw involving the game world. It's a really old game that predates Fallout but still gets updates. Think it's free now.

 

[Dr Fallout]

A system of flaws where you choose one flaw and gain one extra special, Perk to start with, Tag or something that makes the game more challenging and unique in its own way.

I've seen it in a game called Unrealworld. It's a hardcore (and I dislike that term but it applies here) rogue-like set in iron age Finland, and the character you make has to have a specific phobia or character flaw involving the game world. It's a really old game that predates Fallout but still gets updates. Think it's free now.

A bit like gurps with it's flaws and advantages.

 

[HerveCaen]

until we actually see nate and nora having sex in game i believe we should all hold off on claiming nate and nora are his biological parents.

likewise until bethesda releases a nude patch themselves i believe we will never know for certain what nate and noras true genders are

so please stop it with this bethesda gave us a family at the start of the game and forced me to be heterosexual business please

 

[RangerBoo]

until we actually see nate and nora having sex in game i believe we should all hold off on claiming nate and nora are his biological parents.

likewise until bethesda releases a nude patch themselves i believe we will never know for certain what nate and noras true genders are

so please stop it with this bethesda gave us a family at the start of the game and forced me to be heterosexual business please

We're not complaining about that and you would know it if you even bothered to read the previous posts. What we are going on about is how Bethesda decided to force players to have a forced background and leave little in the way for RPG elements due to it.

 

[Hassknecht]

until we actually see nate and nora having sex in game i believe we should all hold off on claiming nate and nora are his biological parents.

likewise until bethesda releases a nude patch themselves i believe we will never know for certain what nate and noras true genders are

so please stop it with this bethesda gave us a family at the start of the game and forced me to be heterosexual business please

We're not complaining about that and you would know it if you even bothered to read the previous posts. What we are going on about is how Bethesda decided to force players to have a forced background and leave little in the way for RPG elements due to it.

Don't even respond, it's a mildly funny troll.
(Herve Caen is the legendarily hated CEO of Interplay who postponed Van Buren in favour of doing FOPOS. He was the Todd Howard before Todd Howard came along)

 

[Walpknut]

At least Herve Caen can grow a Mustache, unlike Toddy boy.

 

[GlowHound]

But very few people can pull off having just a mustache without looking like date rapists.

Herve is not one of them.

 

[Thebakedpotato]

You see a lot of this with MacCready too. It seems like the mantra is "How do we make it interesting? ADD A FAMILY!"
What's the brotherhood like? It's like a family.
What's the Minute Men do? They protect families.
What's the Railroad do? Give synths the chance to live their lives and do things like start a family.

It seems like Bethesda writers honestly think that family is the purest and most honest of all motivations.

The way that you put it doesn't sound horrid.
Because that can damn well be an interesting theme if done right. But this is Bethesda we're talking about.

New Vegas was about "letting go," so to speak. And it works brilliantly.
Chris Avellone is gold like that.

Ah, I wrote it wrong. There's as yet no punctuation mark that conveys "Please read the word 'family' in as schmaltzy and over the top a voice you can concoct in your head."

I have to confess With Maccready I was fucking disappointed. I head read early that he was companion. And I was excited. Here was a chance for a fucking creative as all hell companion. And character in general. And they turned him into generic mercenary number 27^368 in video games history. I was hoping for some manic pixie dream girl with a penis. Who left lamplight and viewed he wastes as an even bigger playground. Or a spirited leader of men. Gifted with such talents of command and organization naturally and honed through the years of lamplight. I got mediocrity.