Bethesda's Lore Recons

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by arcticflocky, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    She says that usually wasteland doctors can easily cure addictions, but her's is way too far gone...
    Yeah, it's a bit hamfisted.
     
  2. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Returning to the subject of retcons... In FO1 the Vaults closed while the nukes were flying. In FO3 Vaults were closed well in advance, which...makes some sense but creates problems with the whole experiment thing. Now in FO4 the Vaults again closed while the nukes were flying.

    And since people brought up Caps as currency...it was ever explained why they didn't use...you know...pre-war coins?
     
  3. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    They probably lost their value. I mean, all of the sudden there is this huge amount of cash floating around and some will have a ridiculous amount while others won't. Town A might've been able to scrape together 60.000 dollars worth in coins that weren't destroyed in the nuclear blast but Town B managed to scrape together 8.000.000 dollars worth in coins because their town had a big bank that hadn't been looted yet. Now Town A works fine with the 60.000 dollars worth in coins circulating around. Some find more cash in the wastes, some enter the wastes with cash on and die. It's still balanced. But now Town A and Town B manage to get a connection with one another with a trade route becoming a possibility. Now in Town A, a Nuka Cola might cost... Uh... 20 bucks worth in coins? Depending on how many people live there. But because people have more cash in Town B their Nuka Cola's are worth 200 bucks worth in coins. So if someone who's not even wealthy, just well off, comes from Town B to Town A then, well, that kinda screws up the economy.

    So the value of pre-war currency would fluctuate depending on the region. Now, say if someone were to enforce a new type of currency, one they can control and one that can spread based on a standard. Now that could work far better. If a trader from The Hub says that a Nuka Cola is worth 10 caps then it is worth 10 caps. It might fluctuate a bit here and there, at some places it's 8 caps and at another it's a whopping 24 caps. But nowhere is someone going to ask for 5000 caps for a fucking Nuka Cola.

    I figured that's the reason for why they didn't use pre-war dollars and coins.
     
  4. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 Vault Dweller

    728
    Jul 9, 2015
    When it comes to bottlecaps in general, wouldn't the use of them as currency on the East Coast count as a retcon, or at least laziness considering the existence of NCR Dollars and Legion Denari in New Vegas?

    I'm reminded of what Emil said before Fallout 3 released every time new retcons like these come up. That they didn't want to step on the lore that had been established by the Black Isle team before then. If they truly didn't want to do that, much of this thread would not exist.
     
  5. Proletären

    Proletären Vault Fossil
    Staff Member Admin

    Mar 15, 2012
    Money must be backed up by something to have value, they doesn't have value by themselves. Someone posted that the water merchants of the Hub in Fallout 1 backed up the caps with water and everybody needs water. In a post-apoc world where water is scarse it would become especially valuable. Also, in Fallout 2 society has progressed and they are by that time mining gold and starting to use gold as currency instead of caps (representing water).
     
  6. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Money in the modern world is backed only by the government saying it has value.

    Actually, she says she has been using psycho for so long the wasteland doctors can't cure her anymore, which would include via the use of said drug.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  7. LiveOnTheEdge

    LiveOnTheEdge

    93
    Jun 22, 2015
    I wouldn't think using coins would've been all that different than the caps. They would be assigned value and backed in the same way as the caps were. And then they'd even have different denominations, unless for some reason they decide to only use one coin. The only problem might be that coins would possibly be more over abundant than bottle caps. Unless they found some special way to mark them that wouldn't be easily reproduced by others. Or the devs could come up with some ingame reason.
     
  8. Proletären

    Proletären Vault Fossil
    Staff Member Admin

    Mar 15, 2012
    That's not true and to the extent it's true it's much more complex than that. The dollar got value becuase it's a currency used to buy and sell oil and oil has value. Alot of other currencies are at a fixed ratio to the dollar.

    It would require alot for Bottle Caps to be a currency, for example as it is in Fallout 1:

    1) Scarcity, i e no one can manufacture them (as is the case in post-apoc america)
    2) They are backed up by something that has use value, for example water (turn in your caps and get water)
    3) water is scarce and controlled by some few distributers (the water merchants of The Hub are equivalents to banks).

    The real currency here is water of course but since it's difficult and heavy to transport people use caps as an intermediary but you can always turn in your caps and get water. The interesting thing here is that water "disappears" when consumed.

    In Fallout 3 there seems to be no reason at all to use caps as a currency but because it's "cool". I don't know why they feel the need to have a currency at all in Fallout 3. There are no states and no banks so they should just barter. There are a lot of factors required for a currency to work that are not present in Fallout 3.

    Exactly! The usage of caps as currency seems to be quite random. They might as well have used pre-war coins as you say.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  9. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Because the barter system doesn't work outside of very small transactions, like one or two goats, due too each person's relative value of things making agreeing to a fair trade difficult.

    Its kind of why money was invented in the first place. It would be impossible to sustain even the small economy they have on just barter.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Why? Bartering worked for thousands of years for most cultures, pretty large ones too even ...
     
  11. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Cultures whose most expensive product were goats and grains, and even then, it was noted by people of those times that the barter systems were terrible because what one person valued a goat as wasn't the same as what someone else valued a goat as, thus trying to reach a fair exchange was difficult.... which is ultimately what led to the invention of money.

    Like, did you take even a basic economics history class in school?
     
  12. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    I don't particularly mind the usage of bottlecaps in Fallout 3. They needed a currency, and bottlecaps were a unique little thing from the first Fallout game. I'm honestly not that bothered since I like bottlecaps as currency for thematic reasons. It's not like it's that hard to believe that it's a widespread currency anyway, the Old World was obviously highly consumerist so bottlecaps are littered everywhere, and they're not easily replicated so they have some value to them. Obviously holes in the concept start to appear if you look at the system under an economic microscope, but honestly people really don't need to be looking that hard into it.
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    That's not true. It was not uncommon to trade a lot more than just that, and in quite large quantities as well. It wasn't all just goats and grains! We are talking about highly sophisticated cultures here which predate ours by at least 5 or even 10 000 years.

    It's been a while that I have spend time with reading about such cultures, but particularly the ancient Egypt, Sumerian, Phoenicians, Babylonians and many more had vast empires with huge trading posts. Trading didn't just happen with goats and food. Knowledge was also not uncommon. Cultural exchange as well. There was in particular a large market/demand for slaves, wood and anything that can be considered a luxury, like silk or noble metals. Even with money or some form of currency slowly becoming more common like with the Romans, trading was a fundamental part of many civlisation, up to the late middle ages. For the very simple reason, that certain goods have been a necessity, like salt or spices. The way how people used some currency in the past was not the same way as how they use it today, the idea of financial hubs came much later for example. Even though already the medieval times had a form of banking system, trading of goods was still a very common way of doing buisness. And in many cases the only way to do it.

    I have no clue why you're so adamant against bartering as a viable form of trade when there is more then enough historical evidence that it was a very wide spread and succesfull way of trade, given the historical context, the modern times have a lot of advantages that the people in the past simply didn't have access to. And in such situations, trading is a viable and very succesfull way of doing buisness. Like I said, it was used for thousands of years.

    *Edit
    I am not arguing that Bartering is the best or most efficient way of doing business. Definetly not for every kind of trade. But depending on what we talk about, it can be very succesfull. I mean it HAS been successful in many situations. Despite of the issues that come with it, by the way, money isn't without issues either, as we can see that today in many painfull ways ... but there can be no doubt that a modern world and society could not work without some form of currency.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  14. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Go retake your history classes. you are woefully ignorant of how primitive economic systems worked.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money
    I am against barter systems because barter systems didn't work out, nor were primitive economic systems based on barter in the first place.

    Also, Egypt used gold bars as a set medium of exchange, and before them, the Mesopotamians used silver bars for the same. So, you're wrong, even going back that far.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Going back to history class but quoting wikipedia, right ..., yeah I am sure that someone arriving in Egypt with 10 tons of greek wine can just return with a handfull of shell money that has absolutey no use in ancient greece :roll:

    I already told you that CURRENCY existed NEXT to bartering. However, there is no reason to believe that bartering was not a cornerstone of empires like ancient Egypt. Particularly when you consider that money or a currency might have been in short supply. Bartering definetly happend a lot and it was very common, particularly on the individual level, but not only there. Direct barter doesn't require payment in money.

    Again, don't confuse the way how currencies and "money" was used in ancient times with the way how finances are managed today. It is NOT(!) the same. Even your precious wikipedia article tells us, that bartering co-existed right next to currencies - for obvious reasons! So what ever if there is a currency or not - which I don't opose by the way, there is no reason to completely exclude bartering as a viable form of doing business. Particularly in a setting like Fallout when you are dealing with tribals, and different communities that might have different currencies.
     
  16. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    The fact that you have to resort to this shows your desperation. If you actually read the article, the sources of the article, or even just the quoted part, you would know that it said barter was never a primary means of exchanging items. Why you would expect it to be in Fallout is beyond me.

    Besides the fact there is no historical evidence for such a nation, and, in fact, all historical evidence points to debt or gift based economies. As previously linked.

    Actually there is. There is an interview, on this very site, where one of the original devs of Fallout said they introduced caps because they felt like people wouldn't understand an actual barter system. Barter systems don't really work due to relative value of goods making trying to do a fair exchange difficult, even IRL, let alone in a game were values are pre-set by the developers.

    There are no tribal cultures on the east coast, and all the tribal cultures in the west lacked anything worth trading for, and caps are accepted currency in the entire post-war united states. Even The Legion and NCR still accept caps as money, even after making their own. So there is no "other currency" problem.


    I honestly don't understand why you are so hellbent to get barter systems in the game, but if you have to go so far as to try to rewrite history to justify it, you should probably take a step back and really think about what you are doing.
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    :roll::roll::roll::roll:


    More and Better Barter

    More advanced barter developed along ancient trade routes. In an article in Bravepages.com, Professor Leonard Lesko, chairman of the Department of Egyptology at Brown University, notes that southern Kush was a popular locale where Egyptians bartered gold, papyrus sheets and grains to obtain exotic items such as ivory, animal skins, livestock and spices. The barter system expanded and became a source of astonishing wealth for Egypt. Egyptians of the New Kingdom, according to the British Museum's website, traded precious stones, herbs, oils, horses and chariots to Africa and Asia in exchange for exotic animals, skins and minerals. As with the agrarian Egyptians, barter outdid coinage.
    (...)
    http://classroom.synonym.com/bartering-ancient-egypt-19283.html




    The History of Money - By Glyn Davies

    ----------------

    The ancient Egyptian economy, largely based on redistribution and reciprocity, set prices in units of value that referred directly to commodities. At first, for the purposes of exchange and trade, the Egyptians calculated the value of goods and services in units that were directly related to the necessities of life. Later, the calculation was made in terms of the weights of metals, such as copper or silver, though rarely did these metals ever change hands. Rather, their weight was used as a reference for value. For the most part, the ancient Egyptians never conceptualized the use of money. Definetly not the way we do today.





    Speculation. We simply don't know it. Anyway, that's not the point.

    Bethesda has shown a rather small part of the post apoc wasteland, however, there are for sure smaller communities here and there, we can assume that much. And it is simply NOT(!) likely that they all use the same fucking currency if there is no real conected economy, banking system and financial system with something to back it up. Even Fallout 1 went so far as to use water merchants in combination with caps. Having just caps, doesn't make much sense. You need something to back it up, even the ancient Egyptians used to hoard grain for that matter.

    The smaller communities get, the more is bartering a common method of doing business as long it concerns the necessities of every day life, which doesn't mean that currencies never existest. There are historical examples of communities that had bartering as their main way of doing business, while other ones used a lot of currencies. The concept of money is simply to abstract given a realistic scenario, particularly the way how it works in our modern world. It doesn't get you trough the winter. It doesn't feed you or your stock. And it doesn't work for you.

    Money or currencies work best in societies that have enough order and structure to support it. If we have to talk already about the basics of economy. By the way, I don't claim to be an expert. However, bartering existed for a long time NEXT to any currency and money, be it shells, copper, silver or gold. A currency, can only work as long as the people have the confidence in the currency that is used.

    I will say this again, there is no way to assume that bartering doesnt happen in the setting of Fallout and that caps are the standard currency. Or that a currency is used everywhere the same way. Not when you have so many situtations where bartering is even used up to this day. Particularly in cases where people lose their confidence in money and currencies.

    What ever if bartering makes sense from a gameplay point, is a whole different question.
     
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  18. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    I am going to skip over most of your post, because its simply retreating of already disproved points, or you blatantly misrepresenting facts in favor of your barter system nonsense.

    However, in regards to this line, its said in a loading screen in Fallout 4 caps are the currency used across post-war America, so its already been confirmed caps are the universal currency.

    Unless they are like the modern U.S. and just use a fiat currency whose value comes from the simple agreement by the people that it has value.
     
  19. Monco

    Monco The Duck of Death

    136
    Nov 4, 2015
    Yes, but the government supports it, all banks support it, so it is worth something. It is explained in FO1 why bottlecaps have value (becauase they are supported by the water traders of the hub), but there is no establishment in FO3 that could support bottlecaps, there is no reason to use bottlecaps except that everyone has (apparently) agreed they have worth, but in the disjointed, chaotic, completely lawless Capital Wasteland, why would anyone accept bottlecaps as currency, there isn't even any kind of hand wave explanation, it just is.

    Also if you think about gold is a fiat currency of sorts, until recently gold had next to no practical use, it only had worth because people decided it had worth. Gold has no more natural inherent worth to a person than a piece of paper.
     
  20. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    But it's pretty!