Bush says silly things again

[Brother None]

So? You don't go dissing up ol' Bush Sr. because he let Saddam Hussein go? You can't just go crucifying people, both of these guys got that, Bush Jr. doesn't

Also, between you and me, France just likes to veto, seriously. Chirac told me. Reminds them of how big they are.

 

[Silencer]

Both world wars started as a matter of a powerful country attacking a less powerful country and triggering the chain of mutual protection pacts, which led to the involvement of world powers in the conflict. The recent Balkan war was pretty much a local affair - there were no large blocks or pacts, Clinton has arranged for the overthrowing of Milo simply to ensure that the Balkan region would not be vastly destabilised, becoming a haven for international criminals and terrorists. And if he saved some Albans from getting slaughtered in the process - it's even better

Now with Iraq, this is a different story. Iraq is pretty much being occupied by our forces and it's a long run to have it restabilised, and to undo the damage it has done to Arab-American relations. I agree that having that murderous bastard Saddam in charge of Iraq could have been a greater evil, but this is the Iraq intervention, that may lead to an escalated and prolonged conflict. And yet Bush sees no problem with that.

Kharn: I agree, the French plainly like squibbling. And if they are soooo great, why did they have their a**es continually kicked in the XX cent.?

 

[Paladin Solo]

Well I didn't go after him because he wasn't part of the argument yet. But I think that America should have taken care of Sadam during the first Gulf War. Why Bush didn't, I don't know.

Edit: Actually the first World War started over an assassination. In or near the Balkan region. And then it turned into what you said. That is why the Balkans are known as the "Balkan Powder Keg" or something like that because many major wars have started there.

 

[Brother None]

Edit: Actually the first World War started over an assassination. In or near the Balkan region. And then it turned into what you said. That is why the Balkans are known as the "Balkan Powder Keg" or something like that because many major wars have started there.

The assassination was the trigger. The best description from the Balance of Powers I ever heard was from Blackadder Goes Forth:

Captain Edmund Blackadder: You see in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Germany and Austro-Hungary on one side, the Russians, French and British on the other. The idea being that each army would act as each other's deterrent. However there was one slight flaw in the plan.
General Melchett: What was that?
Captain Edmund Blackadder: It was bollocks.

Which sums the entire cause of it up rather nicely

PS: Silencer, I do not hate the French. Au contraire, I love 'em, and I am not planning to start bashing them just because that seems to be the latest fad...Strange how everyone felt unified in their opposition to America, yet somehow also felt the need to bash France. Easy target, I suppose...

 

[Bradylama]

The reason the war wasn't continued into Iraq was because Iraqi transgressions concerned only Kuwait. When Kuwait was liberated the UN saw no reason to further escalate the war. That and a US-led invasion of Iraq would've caused every Arab member of the Coalition to withdraw, which would have created a diplomatic nightmare. The only reason the Arabs were in the Coalition in the first place was because we were able to convince the Israelis to stay out of it.

So why not go in without Arab support? Frankly, that would've been impossible. Without the use of Saudi airspace and supply bases, the ground forces would have to rely strictly upon support from the sea, which would've had to be secured at the port of Umm Qasr. Though it could've been easily been accomplished with an amphibious invasion, the occupying forces would have been open to counter-attacks from Al-Basra.


As for the Balkans, NATO involvement was purely a result of European politics. Euro propaganda blew Serbian atrocities out of proportion while downplaying those commited by the Macedonians. To this day I'm still pissed that we were duped so terribly by European propaganda. >=/

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Main reason why Balkan region is (and has always been) so unstable are cultural differences between various nations. You've got catholic Croatia and orthodox Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. Kosovo is inhabited mostly by muslim Albans, Bosnia mostly by muslim Bosniacs, but both Croatia and Serbia want it because Croatian nationalists see Bosnia as their long-lost province (not realizing that centuries of Turk rule completely changed Bosnia culturally, religiously and ethnically, so there's no way it can be considered a Croatian province) and Serb nationalists claim Bosniacs are in fact Serbs who accepted muslim religion (same as Croats are supposedly catholic Serbs, duh!). I could go on and on about causes and effects of all Balkanese wars forever, but suffice to say that all wars in the 90-ies were part of Miloshevich's plan to create Great Serbia, and sometimes he even worked together with late Croatian president Tudjman on realization of this goal! It is a dark secret of our newer history that Tudjman and Miloshevich devised a plan in 1991, a plan so devious that it led to suffering of several million people. A plan to invade Bosnia, divide it and destroy Bosniac nation in the process. A plan to destroy all muslim nations on Balkan, in a paranoid attempt to stop the supposed muslim "scheme" to create a so-called "Green Transversal", a geographical chain of independant muslim countries consisting of Bosnia, Sandzhak (southern Serbia), Kosovo and north of Macedonia, ending with Turkey. To fulfill this insane plan, Miloshevich inspired an insurrection of Serbs in both Bosnia and Croatia, an armed rebellion which was doomed to fail, and purpose of which was to destabilize local governments and perform a genocide over local populations, thus creating conditions for establishing Great Serbia. Tudjman, on the other hand, allowed Serb insurgents to conquer and obliterate hundreds of Croatian cities and villages, and prevented reinforcements and supplies from reaching the besieged cities, in an insane attempt to invoke pity of foreign powers and to make them recognize Croatia as a sovereign country, which would supposedly give credibility to his plan to annex parts of Bosnia.

So now I gave you a little insight into schemings of the two dictators that led to a series of wars which took hundreds of thousands of lives. Even now nationalist forces in both Croatia and Serbia are restless, and if they are to gain power at this time, it would surely once more light the fuse of the Balkan Powder Keg.

 

[John Uskglass]

Actually, if you combine the Orthofodox and Catholic populatons, Christians are more numerous then Muslims in Bosnia.

Ratty, of all people you should realize that it is not that simple. The Turks did as much, and they didnt rule for 5 years- they ruled for several hundred. Milosivic was not any worse then, say Osman I, the Serbian soldiers no worse then some of the Jannisaries.

 

[Bradylama]

With a group of people that think leaving the Orthodox Church turns one into a vampire, I don't think that counts much.

 

[Grizzly~Adams]

Clinton is the pussy. He had a chance to take out Osama some years back, but he didn't, pulled out of Somalia, never disagreed with the UN, wanted to make the Americans so much like the rest of the world, let loose a bunch of American convicts if they promised him votes, and messed up the American military. Bush is just a simple man in not-so-simple times. He must clean up the spoiled child's (Clinton) mess and take care of whatever he didn't.

Edit: The war in the Balkans was supposed to prevent a World War or such. I personally think it could have turned into a major war, perhaps even world-wide, since both world wars started in or around that region. But Clinton went with NATO because France would have vetoed a UN resolution for a reason I am not too sure with. I think it was because they had some soldiers there or something of that matter.

I don't see how the USA being like most other countries is such a bad thing. The US is probably the most tight-assed country in the world right now (an yes im an american). We have the most rediculous laws, the worst excuse for healthcare and social security. We might have the "best" economy, but I really don't think that matters when we also have one of the highest murder rates by firearms in the world. And why is so important that Bush disagreed with the UN? Rosevelt CREATED the UN, who I might add would be VERY pissed off if he were around today.

And of course Clinton wouldn't ever think to take out Osama, he was too busy funding the Taliban, thinking that they would install some sort of Gov't in Afganistan.

The reason he pulled out of Somalia is because it was a lost cause(much like Iraq). There was no way that we could simply march in there and tell the warlords, who were used to cutting off clitorises, to learn how to live the way we do.

If you ask me, the only way this country can be saved is if a 3rd party member was elected into office, which is unlikly concidering the amount of idiots in this country.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Actually, if you combine the Orthofodox and Catholic populatons, Christians are more numerous then Muslims in Bosnia.

Not exactly. Territory of Bosnia is divided into two separate countries - Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republic of Serbia. The first one has majority of muslim population and the latter has majority of Serb population.

Ratty, of all people you should realize that it is not that simple. The Turks did as much, and they didnt rule for 5 years- they ruled for several hundred. Milosivic was not any worse then, say Osman I, the Serbian soldiers no worse then some of the Jannisaries.

Did I say it was simple?

 

[Hellion]

*spots the word "Jannisaries" somewhere above..."


Sorry if this seems a bit out of topic, but I just had to comment on that...

From what I know "Jannisaries" were actually young christian boys that were taken from their families at a very early age, were taught about Islam, were trained to be the Sultan's elite troops, and eventually ended up killing their own families in Turkish wars against christians. Records say that over 2 MILLION Greek/Byzantine/Christian in general children were "islamized" that way.

So from my point of view, Jannisaries ARE a lot worse, as a concept at least...

 

[John Uskglass]

THey where.

The Ottoman empire was essentially a slave empire. Even the intellectuals where slaves; even the best artists where born Christian.

Muslim 40%, Orthodox 31%, Roman Catholic 15%, Protestant 4%, other 10%

 

[Brother None]

Comparing the Ottoman empire to the current world situation is still unfair and bad judgement, CC.

You can't compare the workings of the current-day Balkan states to how they worked when they were the Ottoman-Christendom frontier.

 

[Bradylama]

the worst excuse for healthcare and social security.

Yes, we Americans should work our damndest to give free hand-outs. Sorry, but charity should be left to charities.

We might have the "best" economy, but I really don't think that matters when we also have one of the highest murder rates by firearms in the world.

What does that have to do with anything? Per capita, America has just as high a rate of firearm deaths as Canada.

And why is so important that Bush disagreed with the UN? Rosevelt CREATED the UN, who I might add would be VERY pissed off if he were around today.

Would he? Do you think Roosevelt would be happy with the UN removing us from the Human Rights council for no good reason?

And of course Clinton wouldn't ever think to take out Osama, he was too busy funding the Taliban, thinking that they would install some sort of Gov't in Afganistan.

Bullshit. Clinton didn't "go after" Bin Ladin because doing so would've pissed off the UN. So where has catering to the Europeans helped us now?

The reason he pulled out of Somalia is because it was a lost cause(much like Iraq). There was no way that we could simply march in there and tell the warlords, who were used to cutting off clitorises, to learn how to live the way we do.

It wasn't a lost cause. Americans were just pussies and lost their resolve after news organizations released footage of the Black Hawk pilots being dragged through the streets.

If you ask me, the only way this country can be saved is if a 3rd party member was elected into office, which is unlikly concidering the amount of idiots in this country.

So full of shit its not even funny.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

*spots the word "Jannisaries" somewhere above..."


Sorry if this seems a bit out of topic, but I just had to comment on that...

From what I know "Jannisaries" were actually young christian boys that were taken from their families at a very early age, were taught about Islam, were trained to be the Sultan's elite troops, and eventually ended up killing their own families in Turkish wars against christians. Records say that over 2 MILLION Greek/Byzantine/Christian in general children were "islamized" that way.

So from my point of view, Jannisaries ARE a lot worse, as a concept at least...

Correct. Jannisaries used to be most powerful and disciplined Ottoman force, because they were raised as loyal soldiers since early childhood. HOWEVER, during last centuries of the Ottoman Empire, they became very influential in the state affairs and almost independant of sultan's control. They became corrupted, undisciplined and they often overthrew sultans or ignored their decisions (for example, attempts of certain sultans to reform the state and the army in the 19th century failed mainly because Jannisaries obstructed them). As a result of their reactionary conservativism and refusal to accept changes and give up their privileges, Ottoman Empire regressed considerably during 18th and especially 19th century, and became a mere shadow of its former power, a weak, undeveloped, disorganized, unstable feudal state that threatened to collapse very soon and was reffered to as "Sick Man of Europe". In fact, Austro-Hungarian and Serbian rulers at that time were already sharpening their swords and preparing to divide the weakening empire...

 

[Grizzly~Adams]

Actually Canada's deaths by firearms in the last year were more around the 200's(like most other 1st world countrys) while the USA exceeded the 10,000 mark.

Why would the UN care if we went after Osama? If we actually knew he was responcible for the embassy bombings, im sure the UN would even back the US. Plus the Clinton administration wasn't the only administration to fund the Taliban. Back in the eighties when Afganistan was under invasion by the USSR, the US not only funded and sold weapons to the Taliban, but Osama himself was trained by the CIA.

"Americans were just pussies"? i would like to see you throw down your Big Mac and fries and go to Somalia and show them "skinnies" with AK47s how badass us american's can be.

The reason Rosevelt would be pissed would be because he was a strong Isolationist(like most other countries) and against trusts and monopolies. Even though there were worse conditions in Europe and in Japan's occupation of China at the time than Iraq, he refused to get involved in WW2(eventhough he funded the allies) until the US was directly attacked by Japan. Also, if he were around today there wouldn't be taxe breaks for the rich, or monopolies like TicketBastard, and Microsoft. Eventhough most people don't realize it, Rosevelt was the most Socialist president ever. And if people did realize it the time he would have been stoned to death.

And the UN didn't kick us off the Human Rights Council for no good reason. Concidering Bush, along with a lot of Americans, have pretty much demonized the religion of Islam. Plus what WAS the reason we invaded Iraq? Where are these chemical weapons? But they sure got lots of oil and some vacant land to put nice McDonalds or maybe even a STARBUCK'S!

And please tell me why its such a bad thing that a 3rd party be elected into office? Concidering Democrats and Republicans the issues that matter "irrelivant". There so hellbent on increasing defence spending on boxcutter wielding terrorists, and funding more money into the ever pointless "Drug War". Most other countries have gone towards legalizing Marijuana and trying to develop a better society, rather then spend money on missiles to fend off them boxcutters.

 

[Brother None]

Yes, we Americans should work our damndest to give free hand-outs. Sorry, but charity should be left to charities.

Man, I'm not even getting into this topic. Where's Sander?

What does that have to do with anything? Per capita, America has just as high a rate of firearm deaths as Canada.

I somehow severely doubt it, with the American homocide rate standing at 3 to 4 times as big as Canada's (per capita). name me your source!

(also, firearm deaths don't equal firearm murders, pay more attention)

So full of shit its not even funny.

Yeees...How 'bout you moderate your tone to "respectful" rather than "insulting", hmmm?

Actually Canada's deaths by firearms in the last year were more around the 200's(like most other 1st world countrys) while the USA exceeded the 10,000 mark.

He said "per capita". He's still prolly wrong, though

The reason Rosevelt would be pissed would be because he was a strong Isolationist(like most other countries) and against trusts and monopolies. Even though there were worse conditions in Europe and in Japan's occupation of China at the time than Iraq, he refused to get involved in WW2(eventhough he funded the allies) until the US was directly attacked by Japan. Also, if he were around today there wouldn't be taxe breaks for the rich, or monopolies like TicketBastard, and Microsoft. Eventhough most people don't realize it, Rosevelt was the most Socialist president ever. And if people did realize it the time he would have been stoned to death.

Wow, that's just...severely uninformed.

1. Roosevelt pretty much created the wellfare state, even though the concept had emerged sporadically before in Europe, so I'm guessing most people realise he was pretty left. He's often referred to as "the red man in the white house", so...

2. Roosevelt was not an isolationist. In fact, he was the first president not to be an isolationist. Congress and the Senate would hear nothing of sending "our boys" to help some far-off backwater continent like Europe, though. So...Not Roosevelt's fault.

And the UN didn't kick us off the Human Rights Council for no good reason. Concidering Bush, along with a lot of Americans, have pretty much demonized the religion of Islam. Plus what WAS the reason we invaded Iraq? Where are these chemical weapons? But they sure got lots of oil and some vacant land to put nice McDonalds or maybe even a STARBUCK'S!

Actually, considering the list of countries on the Human Rights Council, the UN *did* kick the US of for no good reason. It's folly.

 

[Gwydion]

"Americans were just pussies"? i would like to see you throw down your Big Mac and fries and go to Somalia and show them "skinnies" with AK47s how badass us american's can be.

Americans are pretty sensitive about casualties, actually.

 

[Grizzly~Adams]

Americans are pretty sensitive about casualties, actually.

Of course we are! Why should Americans die because of other countries short comings. I don't call that being a "pussie", I call that understanding the value of human life. Watching people get shot on TV might not mean much to you but Im sure you wouldn't be to happy when the guns pointing at you.


Well if im "severely uniformed" my U.S. history teacher back in high school must have been on drugs or something. Im pretty sure if FDR wasn't an isolationist we would have been in Europe before 1941.

 

[Brother None]

Well if im "severely uniformed" my U.S. history teacher back in high school must have been on drugs or something. Im pretty sure if FDR wasn't an isolationist we would have been in Europe before 1941.

The FDR administration was pretty isolationist...ic. FDR himself wasn't, though.