Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

Dr Fallout said:
OWB makes fun of it, Fallout 3 takes it seriously.
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What? How does that matter, it's all canon anyways. A man can have his brain teleported out of his body into a jar and he's still be able to use his brain and function like a normal human being according to Fallout New Vegas continuity. You also have Dead Money's terraforming, where you can insert a coin into a machine and it'll magically transform that coin into edible mac and cheese but that's another topic. I prefer the vanilla game's writing because it was more consistent with the world.
 
Fallout 3 has nothing redeemable. At least with Fallout 4, the gunplay is decent, the crafting is decent and the settlement building is... there.
 
Paladin Waffles said:
What? How does that matter, it's all canon anyways. A man can have his brain teleported out of his body into a jar and he's still be able to use his brain and function like a normal human being according to Fallout New Vegas continuity. You also have Dead Money's terraforming, where you can insert a coin into a machine and it'll magically transform that coin into edible mac and cheese but that's another topic. I prefer the vanilla game's writing because it was more consistent with the world.
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To be honest the brain didn't just teleported out of the head. It was expertly surgically removed and replaced with an electronic "brain" as an experiment. Now that still doesn't explain how our character retains all of his/her memories and knows how to do all of the things he/she had learned before.
And the Sierra Madre vending machines coins are explained in the game too. They are made of specific alloys that allow the machine to deconstruct it using nuclear fission/fussion and then use those "raw materials" to reconstruct the selected item if it contains in it's data base the "recipe" to do so. Yes it is totally farfetched, but it was a jab at the Star Trek replicators (which would make things out of thin air, at least in the game we need the coins to provide the base material).
These things are all based in the 50's sci-fi media which Fallout always got some inspiration since the first game.

I am not excusing these things, in the same way I am not excusing the ghost or talking plants, scorpions and mole rats in Fallout 2. And while FNV, FO3 and FO4 also use that kind of retro futuristic 50's vibe, in FNV they use it much less and provide a reason and explanation on how and why it works (even if totally farfetched, but again those explanations are a big part of how it happened in the 50's sci-fi media too).

For example, while the Brain and the Sierra Madre vending machines has ingame explanations in terminals and talking to the Think Tank, in FO3 the explanation we get on something silly and 50-ish like the Wonder Meat is this:
It just works!
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And notice in that image how they conveniently wipe the archives of the other 172 experiments so they wouldn't even have to write any kind of anything he did before it just worked.
This is what we see when we try to read the older experiments archives:
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EDIT: And it doesn't even explain why we can't make Wonder Meat in any metal box (the steps to make wonder meat say explicitly that all we need to do is put wonder glue in the mole rat meat and cure it in a metal box), it is not rocket science and yet we have to use that specific gadget that is the same as other gadgets like that we can find spread around in FO3... But we can only use that one. ♫ No other will dooooo ♫
 
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Paladin Waffles said:
What? How does that matter, it's all canon anyways. A man can have his brain teleported out of his body into a jar and he's still be able to use his brain and function like a normal human being according to Fallout New Vegas continuity. You also have Dead Money's terraforming, where you can insert a coin into a machine and it'll magically transform that coin into edible mac and cheese but that's another topic. I prefer the vanilla game's writing because it was more consistent with the world.
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They're all explained, and while it's all ridiculous and far fetched it does provide an consistent and realistic in-game explanation, something Fallout 3 and 4 fail to do.
 
@Risewild I have a list of things in the Fallout universe that I find to be the opposite of "head canon" more like "head non canon" or "non head canon" if you prefer one or the other. On that list there are things from Fallout 2, 3 and NV's dlc. One of the things that I find incredibly stupid is the canon explanation as to how Deathclaws exist and that they were used in the military to take out Chinese troops. I think that's extremely stupid so I just pretend that never happened. Same thing with how Little Lamplight is a settlement that has somehow been going for 200 years, which is probably worse. Or the president of the Enclave being named Dick Richardson, lol.

I like Fallout more when it takes itself seriously, doesn't joke around too much and stays consistent with itself. In that way I think we're all on the same page here but Fallout 3 never broke those rules terribly enough for it to bother me. I just got done replaying it again with all of the "inconsistencies" in mind that everyone here has pointed out numerous times. Some of them flat out don't bother me, while some them I think are defend-able. The whole thing about Megaton's missing food supply doesn't bother me and some of these things I can even defend, like James' intentions and his psychosis which I find more fascinating than irritating, I think he's an interesting character. Some things I can't defend, like what I just mentioned with Little Lamplight and I agree with your point about the Wonder Meat thing. I honestly don't even remember encountering that computer terminal in the game and I've played it more than a few times, so. :shrug:

I don't want to change anyone's minds about Fallout 3 on NMA because it would be a meaningless effort and diversity of opinions is a good thing. But on the opposite side, the people here changed my mind about Fallout 3. At one point I was on the bandwagon of hating Fallout 3 and agreed with everyone's points here and elsewhere but at some point I kind of woke up and realized I was just bashing the game because people here pointed out things that I wouldn't have even noticed or cared about if someone didn't say anything.

As I've gotten older I feel like I've gotten better at analyzing things in general and most of the points against Fallout 3 that were made here can be countered through a speculative response and that's kind of the problem isn't it? They didn't have enough exposition in the game, they didn't fill in the blanks, there were parts of the painting that were left unfinished that the fans had to fix in their minds or even through mods. Maybe it's because they are so used to working with the metaphysical world of Elder Scrolls, where they can get away with being a lot more ambiguous and random or maybe they just have a different approach to writing or maybe they're all just bad writers. Either way, I think some people are bothered by these things more than others and I'm firmly in the "it doesn't bother me" camp as of now.

I've meandered a lot, so I'll just stop here and end it with... I'm glad I have a platform where I can discuss Fallout with people who played the original games because their positions are the most interesting ones to me.
 
Risewild said:
Now that still doesn't explain how our character retains all of his/her memories and knows how to do all of the things he/she had learned before.
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If I remember correctly, the thing they stuck in your head was some sort of node that was connected to your actual brain, I haven't played OWB for a while though.
 
Izak said:
If I remember correctly, the thing they stuck in your head was some sort of node that was connected to your actual brain, I haven't played OWB for a while though.
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It is. A Tesla coil, if I'm not mistaken, since not too long ago I've only started OWB for the second time.
 
Paladin Waffles said:
I don't want to change anyone's minds about Fallout 3 on NMA because it would be a meaningless effort and diversity of opinions is a good thing. But on the opposite side, the people here changed my mind about Fallout 3. At one point I was on the bandwagon of hating Fallout 3 and agreed with everyone's points here and elsewhere but at some point I kind of woke up and realized I was just bashing the game because people here pointed out things that I wouldn't have even noticed or cared about if someone didn't say anything.
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Don't get me wrong :mrgreen: I do not hate FO3. I would have preferred a Van Buren, yes, but I do not hate FO3.
If I did I wouldn't be playing it for 4 years and involved with TTW.
I think it is a OK game, OK-ish RPG and less than that a Fallout game. Despite it's flaws I have way more fun playing it than Fallout 4, and with the Fallout New Vegas systems and additions it plays even better. I even defended Fallout 3 around here a few times.

It has obvious problems and things I don't like. I would have preferred that some areas would have gotten more work and love put into them. Many things feel just like they were thrown together for no obvious reason or just because it links in some way with the older games (Harold for example, the G.E.C.K. for another example, FEV, etc).
I sometimes play games and it is obvious that devs put some love in some parts, stories, NPCs, locations, quests, etc. It is evident that some parts of some games "emanates" that the devs who made those were having fun and wanted to show it. But in FO3 and way more evident in FO4 we see almost none of that, we actually see it was obvious they made things just because it was cool or they thought so.
In terms of roleplay, FO3 could also have been better explored. We have good quests and memorable moments (Tenpenny Tower dealing with the ghouls, The Pitt choosing a side, Doing the Wasteland Survival Guide quest for Moira Brown with it's multiple results, different ways of reporting the results, ways of lying or using skills to bypass have to do them, optional objectives, the perk rewarded at the player also changes depending on how we report and if we did optional objectives, etc). But then we have mostly things that are there just to be there, no reason at all but to provide the game with content. Things that make no sense at all (like Little Lamplight as you mentioned), how Super Mutant numbers keep increasing and they keep capturing humans but there is no FEV left for them to make more mutants, etc.

Darn I made a wall of text just to say that I do not hate FO3 as a game... sorry about that :confused:
 
Risewild said:
To be honest the brain didn't just teleported out of the head. It was expertly surgically removed and replaced with an electronic "brain" as an experiment. Now that still doesn't explain how our character retains all of his/her memories and knows how to do all of the things he/she had learned before.
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There could be some "dark city" inspiration right there, don't know if you have seen the movie. If you didn't, take a look at it, it's pretty good.

SPOILER ALERT (Well, kind of, the story unfolds in 10 minutes and there are many other things happening) :
Basically, a bunch of creepy aliens perform experiments on a city, every hour, every citizen fall asleep and the aliens inject new memories into them. The carpenter becomes a rich business man, the hooker becomes a married woman, the nice guy becomes a killer etc. They also change the city, according to the new memories, and they watch, trying to understand what's the soul, because they need one to survive. They believe that the solution lies within our memories, inside our brains.
Then comes a guy who basically tells them "Yo, soul is not in the brain, you dumby dumb aliens!"
END OF SPOILER ALERT

The thing is, maybe the idea is to show that what makes you "human" (your soul, if you will) is not your brain. The conversation with your brain highlights that, since he says that he constantly tries to warn you against dangers, he doesn't agree with your life choices, he even judges you harshly. Your freedom of choice is independent from your organs. The brains of Big Mt. didn't understand that it takes more than keeping the brain alive to keep living, with what keeps you moving forward.
If we really want to give Old World Blues an artistic thematic. Can also be a fun, mindless but successful DLC.
 
mithrap said:
There could be some "dark city" inspiration right there, don't know if you have seen the movie. If you didn't, take a look at it, it's pretty good.
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I haven't seen Dark City for years now, but I still remember some things :D. I own the VHS of it still, although it's in Portugal and I live in Australia now >_>.
 
mithrap said:
There could be some "dark city" inspiration right there, don't know if you have seen the movie. If you didn't, take a look at it, it's pretty good.

SPOILER ALERT (Well, kind of, the story unfolds in 10 minutes and there are many other things happening) :
Basically, a bunch of creepy aliens perform experiments on a city, every hour, every citizen fall asleep and the aliens inject new memories into them. The carpenter becomes a rich business man, the hooker becomes a married woman, the nice guy becomes a killer etc. They also change the city, according to the new memories, and they watch, trying to understand what's the soul, because they need one to survive. They believe that the solution lies within our memories, inside our brains.
Then comes a guy who basically tells them "Yo, soul is not in the brain, you dumby dumb aliens!"
END OF SPOILER ALERT

The thing is, maybe the idea is to show that what makes you "human" (your soul, if you will) is not your brain. The conversation with your brain highlights that, since he says that he constantly tries to warn you against dangers, he doesn't agree with your life choices, he even judges you harshly. Your freedom of choice is independent from your organs. The brains of Big Mt. didn't understand that it takes more than keeping the brain alive to keep living, with what keeps you moving forward.
If we really want to give Old World Blues an artistic thematic. Can also be a fun, mindless but successful DLC.
Click to expand...

Since we're talking Dark City, have a totally off-topic yet kickass track that samples the movie:



And on Fallout 3... yeah, that game's story and world have such systemic problems it'd take more than a 'speculative approach' to fix them.
 
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