Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Sn1p3r187, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    Let me put it this way.

    There are roughly 10 towns within the open, that could reasonably fall victim to Raiders.

    There are roughly 16 Raider bases, most of which have several dozen raiders between them.

    These people could not survive purely by attacking caravans unless trading caravans are frequent enough that they could reasonably feed around 16 groups of raiders until the next one comes along.

    Either these gangs of Raiders are competing with one another, at which case why don't the larger ones just get rid of the smaller ones to make life easier for themselves, OR they are one big gang, in which case why don't they flatten or conquer the entire wasteland?
     
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  2. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Also, you that you like the LW being the one and true Messiah, won't he kill ALL raiders? What can they do against the motherfugging walking god? Oh yeah, attack him mindless.

    You know, again, raiders make more sense in NV. Departing from Nipton, there's a canyon. Whn you go to the mid part of it, there's a turned up truck with a corpse and supplies (there's always a gun there). When you realize it, you ar ebing shot from above the canyon by an ambush of Vipers actually decently well armed, with mid-tier gear and numbers. In DUST, that's one of the most goddamn tough encounters. So you either take the shots somehow and plink them down or yo run up the side to them, or of course run away. They clearly use this chokepoint to ambush all kinds of people with very low risk, therefore their good equipment.

    In Bethesda Fallouts, Raiders hardly actually ambush you. They just fuck around their base and kill everyone on sight. And if you say "but they attack your settlement in Fo4!", yeah, settlers with sticks can bludgen them to death, nevermind a couple of easily crafatble turrets.
     
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  3. YeeCop

    YeeCop Just a Sweet Irradiated Transvestite

    281
    Jan 26, 2017
    IIRC The raiders in the elementary school are trying to dig to Vault 101, not Megaton. You must be thinking of that one raider that tried to raid Megaton by himself and got capped by Lucas Simms.
     
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  4. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    You're totally right. :ok:
    My mistake, sorry. :confused:
    (How in the world poorly equipped raiders can hope to penetrate a vault's wall is still a mystery to me) :scratch:
     
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  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    The in-game locations are abstractions. The towns have hundreds of people in lore while the Raider bases are almost certainly as large as they appear.
     
  6. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Can you quote or link which lore says that there are so many people in the settlements in the Capital Wasteland? I never read anything about that anywhere but it sounds interesting.
     
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  7. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    By that logic, there could be also even more Raiders. Concessions, concessions...
     
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  8. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    They're not just sitting there from out the middle of nowhere. They're organized, they've banded together out of necessity and they have a plausible back story to be there.

    EDIT: They also recruit some people, they don't kill everyone they come across.
     
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  9. Apollyon

    Apollyon It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Apr 29, 2017
    Why do people find it so hard to believe that there's brigands in the Wasteland?
    And who's to say they do not hunt, or scavenge when raiding isn't feasible?
     
  10. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Who's to say they do?
     
  11. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    715
    Mar 29, 2016
    Then who say they do? Make up some head canon to fit the plot hole won't make it dissappear, it will still be there no matter how many head canon you make up.
     
  12. Apollyon

    Apollyon It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Apr 29, 2017
    Isn't it just common sense?
    We don't need to have every detailed spelled out for us. That's the beauty of storytelling.
     
  13. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    715
    Mar 29, 2016
    Except in a RPG every details are very important, a believable world is very important for a RPG to work.
    Which mean it's purely lazy, not beauty of story telling.
     
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  14. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Then they would be called Hunters or scavengers... (which the game has some of those too).

    I would still like to know where can they go to scavenge for 200 years, where will they go to scavenge when everywhere is full of enemies that are several times stronger and tougher then they are (SM, BoS, Outcasts, Enclave, Talon Company, Reilly's Rangers, Deathclaws, Regulators, etc. Even a lonely yao guai, radscorpion or Mirelurk can kill several raiders without much effort at all). So they can't even wander in most of the map, since they would be killed with little effort by whatever lives there.

    If we take the worldspace of Fallout 3, there is no place raiders can keep raiding or scavenging to sustain themselves for this long because their numbers are just to high while their equipment and strength are the lowest.
    Will they support 10+ people per month by hunting a couple of bloatflies, radroaches and dogs? Even giant ants can defeat them without much problems.

    This could have worked better if there were large and frequent trading caravans in the Capital Wasteland, but all of the four caravans are just a guy, a brahmin and a guard (this guard is as tough/durable as a Super Mutant Master so good luck for a raider band to take him/her down). And all those caravans have is little, weak, early game junk. They only get better things if the player invest caps twice in them.

    Raiders also can't raid any worthwhile settlement.
    They tried to raid Megaton and were driven away easily, they can't reach Underworld because of all the Super Mutants, BoS and Talon Company that wander nearby, they can't raid Rivet City because they would have to access the extensible bridge, not to mention all the well equipped guards with Combat armors and good weapons, Tenpenny Tower has good walls and strong security personnel too that can deal with any raiders... They can raid Girdershade, Big Town, Arefu, Republic of Dave, Canterbury Commons and I guess Little Lamplight. But they never raid these places, the residents of those never complain about raiders, they live without worries or fear for their lives from raiders (Big Town is an exception but they are being attacked by Super Mutants instead of raiders).

    And then we have the number of raiders, there are way more raiders than there are other humans in the game (not counting those that raiders have no chance of ever raid, like BoS, Talon Company, etc). So how can they raid enough to support all of their numbers when there isn't enough to be raided at all?
     
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  15. Apollyon

    Apollyon It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Apr 29, 2017
    I agree that a believable world is important. Are you refering to Fallout 3 or Fallout 4 in this regard?
     
  16. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Bethesda has always been upfront about that but I thought it was obvious. Otherwise, Morrowind would have like a couple of hundred people.
     
  17. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    425
    May 17, 2016
    Because in Fallout, they are clearly defined as "raiders", and raiding is what they've done since 200 years, on the same spot. A spot which would have been emptied of every single resource in less than a generation, for obvious reasons. A spot away from every single trade route, so there's not even incoming resources to harass. There's not a single production unit anywhere (mine, working factory etc.) to prey upon. Unlike vipers, they don't have a religious or demographic reason to raid or kidnap people. So what are they "raiding"? Ghosts?
    Why keep raiding when nothing is stopping you from creating your very own kingdom? And if they turned to hunting, why would they keep raiding anything?

    210 years is a VERY long time. 210 years ago, Napoléon had his claws on Europe. Germany did not exist yet. Slavery was still a thing. The U.S. were a very recent power, only held the east coast and was governed by the founding fathers. The secession war had not happened yet. We hadn't invented the light bulb yet, nor the trains, nor the radio, nor photography, nor the Vaccine. The Eiffel tower wouldn't appear before many decades, almost nobody in France spoke French yet... Between then and now, we are about to see the secession war, the end of the Napoleonic wars, the fall of the eastern Empires, three major wars, the birth of the U.N. etc. Since 210 years, we passed through a LOT of artistic genres, invented new musics, new paintings, discovered photography, the cinema, the radio etc. If we came to meet someone from 210 years ago, we would have NOTHING in common and we wouldn't even recognize anything from our respective timelines.
    What I'm saying is, 210 years is enough to completely change EVERY single thing in every civilization.
    Compare that to the commonwealth. What difference between the commonwealth, let's say 40 years after the bombs and the Commonwealth we see in Fallout 4?
    Nothing.

    In 210 years, the commonwealth citizen haven't built anything. They haven't moved anywhere. No political power emerged anywhere. No town has been built. Not a single government was born. Nothing was repaired or discovered. No resource has been produced. No new art and culture was achieved. Nobody repaired Sanctuary, or Boston, or Concord. Yet, everything stands still, every tree, every building, everything has been standing still for 210 years without human intervention, without the animals taking over.

    I'm okay with that, if there's a reason. Thing is, there is no reason given why nothing changed, including raiders.

    The only explanation is that the commonwealth is trapped in a time loop, basically a Groundhog Day extended to a whole country, and it has been as such since a century. That would explain why raiders are still raiding instead of being an actual civilization, again and again, forced to respawn and raid the same place at the same time, over and over again, for eternity.

    Brigands are not raiders. Brigands make sense : outcasts, criminals and deserters sticking together and attacking supply routes for their own gain or to cripple a specific political force. And brigands always have a place to defend. In that sense, Skyrim's brigands make perfect sense. There are different political forces moving around, including military ones, there are trade routes and abandonned forts that have been taken from them.

    To have outcasts, you need a civilization that rejected them. You cannot be an outcast of nothing.
    To have criminals, you need to have a law system that defined them as such, and law enforcers that put enough pressure for the escaped criminals to hide.
    To have deserters, you need to have, at least two military forces around the place of action.
    To have raiders, you need to have supply routes.
    To have VERY long term sustaining raiders (aka, one generation at most before their children leave them for better living conditions at a city, unless they form a tribe) you need to have a place that can protect them, like forts, supplied military bases etc. Gunners "could" make sense in that regard, but they are the exception.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  18. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    715
    Mar 29, 2016
    Both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 don't have believable world.
     
  19. Apollyon

    Apollyon It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Apr 29, 2017
    Then why are you trying to rationalize everything?
     
  20. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Why are you even debating us then?
     
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