Can we honestly say Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3?

[Risewild]

I don't understand how is it possible to raiders exist in some places in the Capital Wasteland.
Let's be honest, in one part of the map there are Super Mutants, on the other there are the BoS, on another the Outcasts, on yet another there is the Enclave base, then there are the Talon Company, the Regulators, Reilly's Rangers, etc. How can raiders wearing the worst armors in the game that offer almost no protection and get their condition to unusable in a few minutes of fighting and use usually light weapons and even light melee weapons survive all of those "power house" factions that are fighting with eachother or are very protective of their territory.

Makes no sense that raiders have small bases almost everywhere in the Capital Wasteland. They can't raid pretty much any settlement except maybe Girdershade and Big Town (which have pretty much nothing to raid anyway), where do they get provisions to survive?
Looks like if I was a raider I would be running and hiding from pretty much everyone else since all of those (SM, BoS, Outcasts, Enclave, Reilly's Rangers, Regulators, Talon Company, most wasteland critters and robots) can mow me down with little effort. I could probably defeat molerats, dogs, bloatflies, radroaches and the weakest robots, I think even radscorpions would make a meal out of me.

It depends if you think those corpses suspended from chains are just there to look cool or is their version of a larder.

Raiders in Fallout 3 are not cannibals, they just enjoy torturing and rip people apart.
These are the actual cannibal people in Fallout 3:

• Bill Wilson
• Gallo
• Martha Wilson
• Jenny Wilson
• Jack Smith
• Linda Smith
• Junior Smith
• Old Man Harris (formerly)
• Brianna (formerly)
• Swampfolk
• Several groups of hunters appear to be cannibals
• Lone Wanderer (with the Cannibal perk)

*Source Fallout Wikia

 

[CT Phipps]

I assume the Raiders aren't actually attacking the settlements but attacking the people who come to trade with them. Hence why the Raiders are hanging just outside Megaton.

Before the Fire Ants destroyed Grayditch, the Grocery Store Raiders are just outside a major community too.

They might also be shaking them down via extortion.

 

[RangerBoo]

I assume the Raiders aren't actually attacking the settlements but attacking the people who come to trade with them. Hence why the Raiders are hanging just outside Megaton.

Before the Fire Ants destroyed Grayditch, the Grocery Store Raiders are just outside a major community too.

They might also be shaking them down via extortion.

But they never mention that in game or implied that. It would have been cool if Bethesda did do something like that in Fallout 3 with the raiders. It would have shown that not all raiders attack and murder everything that they cross paths with but some of them bully and harass settlements for supplies and what not until they either drain the town dry and move on or overrun it when it is no longer of any use to them. Kinda like what the Khans did in Fallout 1 with Shady Sands.

 

[Risewild]

I assume the Raiders aren't actually attacking the settlements but attacking the people who come to trade with them. Hence why the Raiders are hanging just outside Megaton.

The raiders outside of Megaton are trying to dig inside Megaton, there are notes explaining why they are there and they are there in secrecy as to not be found by Megaton (again it is explained in a note or terminal or something like that).
Also the only people who travel from settlement to settlement are the merchants with the brahmin, and those have a guard and never mention have any problems with raiders. Also raiders in Fallout 3 are violent, sadistic and masochist, they kill at first sight, or capture to torture and have fun mutilating the victims. Even Three Dog mentions that the raiders accept no surrender and will just strangle people with the white flag. His advice is to run, hide or fight if we have the guns and the guts because Raiders exist just to kill and torture.

 

[CT Phipps]

The raiders outside of Megaton are trying to dig inside Megaton, there are notes explaining why they are there and they are there in secrecy as to not be found by Megaton (again it is explained in a note or terminal or something like that).

Cool, thanks for that info! I love this game. I'm always finding out new tidbits.

Also the only people who travel from settlement to settlement are the merchants with the brahmin, and those have a guard and never mention have any problems with raiders. Also raiders in Fallout 3 are violent, sadistic and masochist, they kill at first sight, or capture to torture and have fun mutilating the victims. Even Three Dog mentions that the raiders accept no surrender and will just strangle people with the white flag. His advice is to run, hide or fight if we have the guns and the guts because Raiders exist just to kill and torture.

Yes, thieves can be real assholes in the apocalypse.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

The lack of attention to where Raiders come from is a big problem with Fallout 3, which devotes very little attention to the history of the setting. The only answers we ever get are that Ashur is employing Raiders to supply him with both slaves as well as food for his people in Pittsburgh.

Then why are you considering them a part of the "theme" of the game if they are just "there", like Molerats or Bloatflies?

It depends if you think those corpses suspended from chains are just there to look cool or is their version of a larder.

Did people in the middle ages eat the people crucified or on spikes out of the battlements?

Tamerlane is particularly notable for the fact his policy of destroying civilizations completely but for skilled artisans he carried back at slaves was effectively the end of high Muslim culture. The Huns also are notable for the fact they were trying to do what Genghis Khan succeeded in doing but after the death of Attila, fell back into their old habits and lost everything.

So NOW you consider human history

The BOS is dying out

Even considering the actual real issue of the Otcast... Hey, remember that "Power Armor is actually bulletproof" dumb thing?

As for eventually disappearing? Probably. I'm confused at the idea that sustainable living is something you think humans are very good at as history has shown otherwise.

It doesn't mean that every little shitty town has to start a goddamn civilization. It means that people band together against outsiders. Logically, they'll want a relation with those outsiders that doesn't mean constant war. That means "protection", blackmail, alliances, feudalism, etcetera. Hell, the first raiders in Fallout mad emore sense than any of Fo3's. They aren't much more than a gang, so they actually trade (amazing right?), and stir up Shady Snads and some othe rpossible little town for supplies. They also make slaves out of the opposition and sell them for sustainance. Period. it won't last forever, but they're making a living. And if there isn't some vengeful nig town, they could just drop the war hatchet some day and go on in peace or not.

 

[mithrap]

Hell, the first raiders in Fallout mad emore sense than any of Fo3's. They aren't much more than a gang, so they actually trade (amazing right?), and stir up Shady Snads and some othe rpossible little town for supplies. They also make slaves out of the opposition and sell them for sustainance. Period. it won't last forever, but they're making a living. And if there isn't some vengeful nig town, they could just drop the war hatchet some day and go on in peace or not.

Exactly. Fallout 1's Khans may not be the friendliest bunches, but you can come to their HQ and have a reasonable chat, provided you show respect and put something on the table. They are tough human beings with their own messed up morality, but in the end, they are a community with a future (and they actually become a civilization later on).

As much as I appreciated the effort with the idle, random lines of dialogue for the Fallout 4 raiders and the various notes in their camps, I still didn't find that feeling of believable community.
I'm not against the usual hostile raider NPC on your way, but look at how New Vegas handled them. They are not named "raiders", but "vipers", and if you decide to take the time to look at who they are, you'll find that they attack people in order to kidnap them for their matriarcal, religious society, following Shaman laws etc. You can totally not focus on them and just shoot them on sight, like in Fallout 4. But this time, if you want to look at things a little bit closer, you'd find some lore, just enough to hint that there is a living world outside your immediate surroundings, which is what creates immersion. As much as I disliked Fallout 3, the Pitt DLC nailed that part with the mention of Ronto, for example.

 

[CaptJ]

I think Fallout 3 was awesome for reviving the IP

It is like a lioness being grateful to a male lion for fathering her cub after killing the previous alpha male and her cubs.

 

[Jogre]

@CT Phipps You gave a few examples of groups that raided lands and often caused collapses, but I highly doubt that any of them raided the same lands for 200 years.

Nothing in the game indicates that Raiders are a new addition to the Capital Wasteland. We have no reason to believe times were any better, and you'd kinda expect that to come up at some point.

So either
A. Everyone is being really casual about the fact that there entire livelihood is being threatened

OR

B. Everyone has been afraid to step out of town due to fear of being shot at by literally hundreds and hundreds of raiders, who for some idiotic reason shoot everyone on sight, for at least several generations. YET somehow, none of these hordes of Raiders have decided to become Warlords ruling over an area, and somehow they are able to maintain a steady supply of things to raid in a wasteland that's already struggling enough without there raiding.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

It depends if you think those corpses suspended from chains are just there to look cool or is their version of a larder.

Considering the way the bodies are hanged, I'd say it's just to make the raiders look evil. But think about it further. The bodies you see can be anywhere, from easy to reach places to hanging off satellite dishes where you couldn't reasonably get to them for food. That and they're just left to rot rather than kept somewhere to preserve them.

In The Last of Us, when you enter the butcher shop in David's settlement, you know exactly why the bodies are kept in there. All useful items, clothing, weapons etc. people had are removed and their bodies are drained then kept in the old freezer. They're not suspended outside on show for the elements to get to.

B. Everyone has been afraid to step out of town due to fear of being shot at by literally hundreds and hundreds of raiders, who for some idiotic reason shoot everyone on sight, for at least several generations. YET somehow, none of these hordes of Raiders have decided to become Warlords ruling over an area, and somehow they are able to maintain a steady supply of things to raid in a wasteland that's already struggling enough without there raiding.

Not to mention that in 200 years no one's thought "That's it, enough with these raiders, we're fighting back!"

 

[mithrap]

@CT Phipps You gave a few examples of groups that raided lands and often caused collapses, but I highly doubt that any of them raided the same lands for 200 years.

In certain context, long term brigandage is actually possible. North-Eastern France had a problem with brigand knights taking over abandonned forts and holding them for insanely long times, but these events require very specific conditions : health events, rule of law concerning deserters, specific trade routes, proximity of contested borders etc, and none of these conditions are met in Fallout 4.

However, the Fallout 4 raiders could make sense if there was a plague that hit the commonwealth just a few years or months prior to the events of the game. People who couldn't reach shelter in time or scavengers trying to live from the belongings left behind by the people who left for quarantine. That would also have served as perfectly reasonable excuse for why Boston, Sanctuary and Concord are empty places rather than fully working societies, as they should normally be.

 

[Charwo]

About the raiders in Fallout 3, I have a headcanon fix you might want to use on Fallout 3:

There's actually a lot of rebuilt cities around DC. Alexandria, the 8th Ward of Washington DC (the stuff south of Rivet City on the other side of the Anacostia) Annapolis and Baltimore. The problem is, that they're cyberpunkish dystopias where everything and everyone has a price. Nasty Sin City type hives. Anyone who wants to leave really only has the DC wasteland to run too. It's so dangerous no one will pursue them there. So the reason why DC has so many raiders is you have the exiles and flotsam of three or four cities with a modernish population in the hundreds of thousands a piece. Raiders tend to prey on fellow exiles rather than the indigenous population od DC because the Washingtonians are too savvy to be caught or outfought by city slickers (most of the time).

The problem with Fallout 4 is that BOSTON needs to be that huge bastion of humanity. If you find a mod that turns Boston south of Charles River into Goodnieghbor, that is populated and protected but anarchistic, you will have your answer as to where the raiders come from. Now will anyone make such a mod, I don't know.

 

[CT Phipps]

I'm not actually sure what the argument is here. Raiding is a job. Why wouldn't people in the Capital Wasteland decide thievery is a better path to survival than working hard? It seems the assumption is that people wouldn't turn to crime when it means the difference between life and death.

In Megaton, we have a former Raider who was presumably a citizen of Megaton both before and after his career murdering people for loot.

Same as Joel in the Last of Us.

 

[CaptJ]

I'm not actually sure what the argument is here. Raiding is a job. Why wouldn't people in the Capital Wasteland decide thievery is a better path to survival than working hard?

Because if everyone is stealing, there soon would be nothing to steal.

 

[Charwo]

I'm not actually sure what the argument is here. Raiding is a job. Why wouldn't people in the Capital Wasteland decide thievery is a better path to survival than working hard? It seems the assumption is that people wouldn't turn to crime when it means the difference between life and death.

In Megaton, we have a former Raider who was presumably a citizen of Megaton both before and after his career murdering people for loot.

Same as Joel in the Last of Us.

Joel isn't a thief, he's a smuggler. In order for there to be thieves or smugglers, you have to have a productive and lawful society to steal from and smuggle things into. As is presented, there is nothing TO steal, and not enough trade to extort. Even low-level crack dealers in the hood have to work real jobs in order to make ends meet and their lives aren't much less dangerous and they're selling CRACK.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

I'm not actually sure what the argument is here. Raiding is a job. Why wouldn't people in the Capital Wasteland decide thievery is a better path to survival than working hard? It seems the assumption is that people wouldn't turn to crime when it means the difference between life and death.

In Megaton, we have a former Raider who was presumably a citizen of Megaton both before and after his career murdering people for loot.

Same as Joel in the Last of Us.

Although this has already been answered I'll add a bit more to it. Joel isn't a raider, he's a smuggler, working in a Quarantine Zone. Aka a place of order with some amount of productivity, not everyone running around stealing shit. If you're actually referring to his past as a hunter, then how long does it take before you run out of stuff to steal? 20 years is one thing, 200 years is another.

Plus as I stated before, sooner or later other people would have banded together to fight against raiders. Or if they were all somehow raiders you'd have one group that seeks power above the rest.

 

[CT Phipps]

Joel isn't a thief, he's a smuggler. In order for there to be thieves or smugglers, you have to have a productive and lawful society to steal from and smuggle things into. As is presented, there is nothing TO steal, and not enough trade to extort. Even low-level crack dealers in the hood have to work real jobs in order to make ends meet and their lives aren't much less dangerous and they're selling CRACK.

Joel is a former Raider. He tells Ellie as much when she asks if he used to kill people and rob them. Also, in the Last of Us, there's plenty of people who are laying in wait to trap and steal from those travelers moving between the cities.

Also, in Fallout's world, any little bit a traveler has can be worth their lives.

Because if everyone is stealing, there soon would be nothing to steal.

Not really. You need to have the constant conflict and murder in the Capital Wasteland anyway to keep the population sustainable.

 

[CaptJ]

Plus as I stated before, sooner or later other people would have banded together to fight against raiders. Or if they were all somehow raiders you'd have one group that seeks power above the rest.

Bethesda seems to portray the raiders to having some kind of stupid comradery of being in the side of evil despite them being in competition with each other. This is shown in FO3 and Nuka-World.

 

[CT Phipps]

Bethesda seems to portray the raiders to having some kind of stupid comradery of being in the side of evil despite them being in competition with each other. This is shown in FO3 and Nuka-World.

Why would you fight well-armed opponents versus less well-armed ones?

 

[Risewild]

Why would you fight well-armed opponents versus less well-armed ones?

You realize that raiders are the less well armored enemies in Fallout 3? So why would they fight people in Power Armor and with combat robots (Outcasts, BoS), Highly resistant heavy armed Supermutants, Talon Company with combat armor and heavy damage weapons, etc. instead of fighting other raiders that have similar weak firepower and armors?
In Fallout 3 there aren't many people walking the wastes that are more or as weak as the raiders.