Chris Avellone talks Fallout 3

[Ausdoerrt]

Random encounters can differ too much to completely discard the idea. There were so many special REs in FO1/2 that the system didn't feel like pointless grinding.

On the other hand, if we're talking a FF-like RE system then FUCK NO.

The problem with the FO3 map wasn't so much the fast travel but the way it was implemented - on the one hand, there was too much useless stuff to travel to - why would anyone want to return to some insignificant little dungeon?; on the other hand, you COULDN'T fast-travel when you really wanted to - like when someone tells you about a location before you've been there, you can't fast-travel, which feels just like a lazy way to unnecessarily prolong the too-short main quest. For example: I need to grab that thingy from the museum for the radio; great! - let me fast travel straight to the location, be dropped in the middle of the SMutant defense, clear the dungeon, get the item and travel right back to GNR.

There need to be REAL points of interest on the map (cities, groupings' bases etc), and I dare to say ONLY those, and then let player discover the rest himself, maybe add the option for "personal" markings on the map if necessary. That way, it could add a bit to realism, and add the feeling of exploring an actual wasteland rather than a large garbage-pile full of boring "places of interest" on the map. You know, if you can't MAKE a big world, at least make it SEEM big.

I'd say for me a perfect solution would be if they made a few large locations, maybe 1/4-1/2 size of Capital Wasteland, and then connect them with a classic-style world map. Then they could even add the Arcanum-like repeating random terrain in between for the most hardcore users. Then rather than pointlessly walking around without doing anything useful, the player will be immediately sent to "points of interest" for the main quest, with option to explore the surroundings if they so choose. But don't FORCE me to explore if I just want to get on with the quest - maybe a small, considerable amount, but please nothing like finding way through a maze of silly invisible walls and constant dungeoning in metro.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

In Fallout 3 the player actively navigates terrain, avoids or engages random travelers and monsters, and spots and pursues landmarks. For many that enjoyed the game (like Avellone), the exploration is one of the more entertaining aspects. Now, if you generally don't like exploration, then you might want to see it relegated to minigame status, but that would really just be changing the focus of the game rather than fixing a problem.

The problem is that the exploration is neither interesting or meaningful. The random encounters are pretty much just killing shit, the combat is pretty flimsy, and the AI is too stupid to make it interesting. I think that a game that focuses on exploration and conquest could be very interesting. Have a dynamic world with multiple factions fighting for territory that you have to deal with. You'd probably want to set up a bunch of scripted combat situations but if you had a few for each place of interest (like a fortress), then it would seem very diverse. Having good AI would also be key, it's one thing that I really enjoyed about STALKER. In many ways, STALKER was going in that general direction. Bethesda's games seem more interested in scenic sight-seeing than really meaningful exploring and adventuring in a world.

 

[Dionysus]

The problem is that the exploration is neither interesting or meaningful. The random encounters are pretty much just killing shit, the combat is pretty flimsy, and the AI is too stupid to make it interesting.

I think you are conflating exploration with combat. It’s sort of like saying that the story in Final Fantasy VII sucks because you don’t like all of the fights and random encounters between the cutscenes. I can see how bad combat would spoil your fun, but making the combat better would only allow you to appreciate the exploration that is already there. That is, unless you think combat itself should be the reward for exploring, which probably wouldn't make sense for an RPG.

Exploration is traveling and discovering new things. In the context of an open-world RPG, that means finding quests, things to make your character more powerful, bits of story, and interesting visuals in games that support that sort of thing. The exploration in Fallout 3 is pretty good. If they wanted to improve it, they would focus on environmental interactivity more (include climbing and maybe flying), put in more quests linked to locations that you aren’t led to (perhaps even including a big multi-step unmarked quest), and make finding loot more important.

 

[Beelzebud]

Bethesda got the "wandering around" thing right. What they failed to achieve was making all of those little places meaningful in any way, or even rewarding to take the time to explore.

There were pieces of the game that literally had no interaction with NPC's at all, and nothing to reward you for finding them. What out of the way places there were, were just stupid in-jokes that really made no logical sense at all. The Republic of Dave, and various other places were just absolutely pointless, and half-baked. It's like Canterbury Commons; besides the lame super-hero plot, which was completely retarded, the only other thing there was the half-baked "invest in a trader" quest line, that really didn't do much of anything at all.

Mindless wandering got boring really fast, and in the end is what totally killed Fallout 3 for me. I remember one night, after going all over the city full of deathclaws, and not finding 1 quest, NPC, or anything of note, I suddenly realized how pointless the whole game was.

Exploration should have some point to it. Either by giving backstory to the world, direct rewards for finding obscure places, or actually have quests and NPC's. Wandering around for no apparent reason gets old pretty quick for a lot of us.

Bethesda got the mindless wandering down perfectly. They just forgot to give you something to do once you got to all of those out of the way places.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

the one thing I never understood about exploration in FO3 is that sometime there are "meaningful places" that aren't meaningful at all (a burned house with a couple of raiders and nothing else? whoopi doo) while at the same time there a few places that don't get a map marker (the settlement with ostile ghouls).

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

more like: Chris Avellone adds to the pile of lies which anybody working for Bethesda says about Bethesda. there is absolutely nothing of interest in the words of an employee when speaking about his employer.

 

[Crni Vuk]

more like: Chris Avellone adds to the pile of lies which anybody working for Bethesda says about Bethesda. there is absolutely nothing of interest in the words of an employee when speaking about his employer.

And that would be who? Just out of curiosity. Cause I definetly know about the issues some had cause of Morrowind/(and later games). But cant remember someone who has worked for Bethesda calling them liars.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

what? i was saying of course people are going to say "oh, yeah...i love my boss he does a great job" while you're working for him.

that in and of itself is a necessary lie...for the sake of self-preservation.


you translated my post worse than you translate your english, Creens.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah ... but ... but maybe ... eventualy some enjoyed their job for Bethesda ? Did you ... ever thought about that? After they got lobotomized its not like they had any other choice then to love them.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Mindless wandering got boring really fast, and in the end is what totally killed Fallout 3 for me. I remember one night, after going all over the city full of deathclaws, and not finding 1 quest, NPC, or anything of note, I suddenly realized how pointless the whole game was.

There is only one city of Deathclaws... and there is an unmarked quest there that will net you a uniqe power armor that talks and automatically uses meds.
Unless you mean the Deathclaw caves... where there is a uniqe lazer and bubblehead.

 

[Jet1337]

Bethesda got the "wandering around" thing right. What they failed to achieve was making all of those little places meaningful in any way, or even rewarding to take the time to explore.

There were pieces of the game that literally had no interaction with NPC's at all, and nothing to reward you for finding them. What out of the way places there were, were just stupid in-jokes that really made no logical sense at all.

The Republic of Dave, and various other places were just absolutely pointless, and half-baked. It's like Canterbury Commons; besides the lame super-hero plot, which was completely retarded, the only other thing there was the half-baked "invest in a trader" quest line, that really didn't do much of anything at all.

Bethesda got the mindless wandering down perfectly. They just forgot to give you something to do once you got to all of those out of the way places.

Seems to me like you played the game for maybe 2 hours. What about Smiling Jack in Evergreen Mills? He has the Terrible Shotgun on him, which is one of the best close-range weapons in the game.

The Republic of Dave is a stop on the way to get the T-51b Power Armor. It also has a bobblehead and Ol' Painless. What's so pointless about that?

The "city full of deathclaws" is part of Broken Steel. It also has the Prototype Medic Power Armor, a Fat Man, a skill book, lots of ammo, and it's probably the best place in the game for XP just to name a few.

Of course there's not gonna be any NPC's ( besides Dave if he lost the election ) there. Anyone with a fucking brain can deduct that there won't be any NPC's in a place full of Deathclaws.

 

[Sander]

So you're saying that an area has a point if it has good loot?
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree wildly with that.

 

[Jet1337]

So you're saying that an area has a point if it has good loot?
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree wildly with that.

It would be pointless to a person wanting triple-A NPC interaction and backstory, but I'm just there for the loot.

I don't play this game with a Fallout 1 or 2 mindset like the majority here. To me, the places have enough backstory and characters to satisfy me. It didn't get GoTY for nothing.

 

[shihonage]

It didn't get GoTY for nothing.

It got GoTY because nobody knew about Fallout1/2 in the "mainstream".

In the industry populated by space aliens and medieval cliches, suddenly you have a game where you come out of an atomic vault, and where, unlike Gears of War, the post-apocalyptic world is not merely a graphics backdrop.

So. when Fallout 3 came out, the mere setting in which it takes place (for which none of the credit goes to Bethesda) guaranteed that it would be viewed as a "fresh n'cool" game, no matter how mediocre the implementation of it was.

 

[SharkClub]

It didn't get GoTY for nothing.

Or how I prefer to think of it: 2008 was a bad year for the gaming industry.

 

[Jet1337]

It didn't get GoTY for nothing.

It got GoTY because nobody knew about Fallout1/2 in the "mainstream".

I'm not sure about that. I think the the argument of Fallout 3's basis to appeal to the mainstream is a bitter opinion and that argument comes from jaded Fallout fans the majority of the time.

This is Fallout's fate. Interplay had to lay off BIS. Who else would've picked up the Fallout franchise? Would your rather see it die and not come back at all? I'm not sure any other dev would've picked up the franchise, and even if there was I'm sure the quality of the game would've been worse than what Bethesda has done.

 

[aenemic]

This is Fallout's fate. Interplay had to lay off BIS. Who else would've picked up the Fallout franchise? Would your rather see it die and not come back at all?

you can't have been around for long, or you'd know that the answer to that is "yes". most Fallout fans would rather see the IP dead and buried than turned into an abomination of this sort.

I am however willing to forgive Bethesda if New Vegas turns out to be amazing and the IP continues to be handled by Obsidian or some other competent people who aren't Bethesda. the first might happen, but the second is not very likely - especially if the first would be true (in which case Bethesda would take all credit for it and probably never mention Obsidian again when talking about the game).

 

[draeke]

So you're saying that an area has a point if it has good loot?
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree wildly with that.

Agreed, as much as I liked what I saw in the 'negatives' part of the Avellone article, I didn't think I'd actually see someone making a comment of loot over design. I'm thinking Jet1337 completely missed the point. "oh coolz! this Obliv.. err/FO3 locale has a Shotgun +2!!!1!"

 

[shihonage]

I'm not sure about that. I think the the argument of Fallout 3's basis to appeal to the mainstream is a bitter opinion and that argument comes from jaded Fallout fans the majority of the time.

I'm not sure what argument you're referencing. Your summary of it certainly does not match what I actually said.

This is Fallout's fate. Interplay had to lay off BIS. Who else would've picked up the Fallout franchise? Would your rather see it die and not come back at all? I'm not sure any other dev would've picked up the franchise, and even if there was I'm sure the quality of the game would've been worse than what Bethesda has done.

I would rather see it die than for Fallout 3 to become the face of Fallout. True story. Unfortunately, Fallout 3 IS the new face of Fallout now.

 

[Patton89]

A horrible sequel isn't any better than no sequel at all.

Fallout 3 is a poor sequel to Fallout 2. It resembles a spin-off, rather than an actual, proper sequel. The gameplay is entirely different for starters. The writing is worse, and is quite inconsistent. It blatantly ignored several things in previous games, like the fact that FEV couldnt have been in East Coast, since the only sample of FEV was supposed to be in Mariposa, which was in the West Coast.

I cant be really an old jaded bastard now can i ? I didnt play the games when they came out. I wasnt even expecting a sequel to be made. After Fallout 3, only thing I am looking forward is to see what Obsidian can do. If Bethesda is going to keep making the future Fallout games, I wont be intrested. They dont have the writers to pull of Fallout well.