Classified US military video depicting slaying of civilians

Cimmerian Nights said:
They chose or Most Glorious Leader Kim Il Sung chose for them? How come N. Korean POWs refused repatriation after the war if that's where they wanted to be?
You're really drinking Kim's Kool-Aid if you think there's anything Democratic about the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

I think or assume it has less to do with Kim young whatz-his-name and if hes right or wrong ~ I mean we all agree his not the best choice as leader so much for sure, but about a nations Sovereignty. Its not our job or right to decide for N-Korea what is right or wrong. As cruel as it might sound. But I think we all know how succesfull playing the "world police" is on the other side ...

Cimmerian Nights said:
Crni Vuk said:
It is one thing to threat someone. Its another to be threaten.
I think you mean "It is one thing to threaten someone. Its another to be threatening."?
If by nuclear threat, I agree, they know better. But how about bombings, assassinations, plane hijackings and kidnappings. You think the South or Japan aren't threatened by these actions? They most certainly are. Japan's right is using the kidnappings as a justification for reinstating their military full scale.
Yeah, my bad. Grammar issues you know not my language :)

But I meant something like that. Though what kind of actions are you talking about ? Bombings, assisnations, plane hijackings ? Either we are blind over here (never heard about such things), or we are talking here about actions from a wrong scale. I mean I do NOT consider the actions of terrorists regardles if supported by a gouvernement or not to be of the same scale like a public threat. Public in the way for example like a clear statement from N-Korean leaders to bomb Japan with nuclear weapons for example.

As said. I have no doubts that there are huge tensions between Japan and N-Korea. But I doubt that N-Korea is really in the position to "bully" anyone. Who would they bully anyway ? Eventualy whith 1 or more Million chinese soldiers as support, a huge modern military (letz be realistic, they dont have that) and a possible strong communistic Sovietunion as joker somewhere N-Korea might evnetualy have what it takes to really "bully" its neighbours.

But from how I see it and that doesnt mean it has to be the correct way N-Korea is a very isolated nation economicaly AND most important politicaly. Even the Chinese gouvernement doesnt feel very certain about N-Korea anymore. Particularly since China gains at the moment much more from friendly relations to the western world then beeing seen or eventualy feelt as a potential military threat ~ which doesnt mean that China could not become one in the future but at the moment it seems they want to make money so that means friendly dragon for now not fire throwing one at least in the public ...

I think one reason behind it is that many nations either colapsed (Sovetunion) or evolved in new roles (China) which allowed them to continue. N-Korea is somewhat particular. They literaly remained in a stalemate for the last 50 years. It might have worked cause they are very isolated geographicaly as well. There are not many influences from the outside and everyone including eventualy S-Korea and particularly the USA are seen as threat. The might use all kind of propaganda to explain their people that litealy EVERY MINUTE some attack might happen. The fact that there never has been a real treaty of peace after the Korean war might play a role in that as well. Its easier to explain harsh situations to your population when you keep them in "war" with someone or at least give your population the idea that they have to be protected from something. Some enemy you cant really see, or talk with. I doubt the N-Korean population is allowed to do a vacation in the US and see things by them self.

Cimmerian Nights said:
No one who has half a brain would want to be pushed around.
Look dude. The North Korean gov't has failed it's people miserably. They should fear for their legitimacy. That seems to be the prime motivating factor of most of what they do, from media control, to the gulags.
that does not explain a nuclear programm though. Particularly when you consider that the resources of such a programm could be used elsewhere. In propaganda, military, gulags what ever you can name that helps them to "hold" the power and keep people low. One issue in opressive systems is the huge cost and preasure on the economy usualy. Its many times one reason if not THE reason why such systems are doomed at some point. You have to spend much resources on military and most important in anything regarding control. Controls regarding cencorship. Your population. Organisations similar to the Gestapo. I remember one big issue with the GDR was that the apparatus for oppression became so big at some point that it needed almost the whole budged! So there is not much left for anything else.

A nuclear programm would be a huge risk as there would be no real gain from it. What do you want to do use it against your own population eventualy ?

A nuclear weapon is ONLY meant as sign or threat to other nations. And I think if we look at recent US actions like Afghanistan and Iraq. The spech from Bush in the past regarding N-Korea (~again axis of evil) the fear N-Korea had regarding a attack by US forces was not completely illogical. Not at that time at least.

I can of course only guess what they thought. Like anyone of us here. No one can really say what they think. But I assume if I would be in the same situation like Kim. Watching Bush on TV. The Afghanistan war. The Iraq war. Watching how the situation in Iraq is NOW after Saddam (its still just barrely less chaotic ...). I would try to get access to nuclear weapons as well. Or at least say that I am working on it. If only as a way to use it as political tool. And they did used it for that.
 
Those NKers are just crazy enoguh to waste millions on making a fake nuke just so they feel better about themselves.

China should stop being a bitch and Shut the fuck up and stand aside when the south knocks those Punks out in the 4 hour war that will be happening shortly. Then I won't be bothered with hearing about North Korea anymore.
 
but China wants it comfort zone, some distance between its capital and allies of the USA..

In addition I doubt it would take 4 hours to end this. While south korea has very advanced weapons, NK has shitloads of stuff. They don't even need nuclear weapons to fuck up south korea, its enough if they fire the artillery.
 
Roflcore said:
but China wants it comfort zone, some distance between its capital and allies of the USA..

In addition I doubt it would take 4 hours to end this. While south korea has very advanced weapons, NK has shitloads of stuff. They don't even need nuclear weapons to fuck up south korea, its enough if they fire the artillery.

Shits loads of stuff that is 40 years old and a army that isn't feed as good as it was years ago.

When the shit hits the fan every asshole with stars and a big stupid hat is going to hit the panic button, flee, try and steal as much as he can while he jumps over the Chinese boarder and hoping that fire they set burns all the evidence of their doings.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I think or assume it has less to do with Kim young whatz-his-name and if hes right or wrong ~ I mean we all agree his not the best choice as leader so much for sure,
I'm not sure where the choice came in, sure they have sham, one-party elections where they win 99.98% of the vote, but Kim got to where he is because his father preceeded him, and from all accounts his son will follow him.

This is the "Lucky Sperm Club" method of selecting leaders followed by text-book Stalinism. Nobody chose anything.

If anything, Uncle Joe himself probably handpicked Kim Il Sung. He was a "details" guy like that.

Crni Vuk said:
Its not our job or right to decide for N-Korea what is right or wrong. As cruel as it might sound.
I think most human rights organizations would disagree would you.

The thing is, if you want to get left alone, if you want to be the hermit kingdom, you can't then turn around and beg for food on your terms when you fucked things up horribly.
That's enabling a Stalinist.

Crni Vuk said:
Yeah, my bad. Grammar issues you know not my language :)
No worries, I'm not busting your balls or anything, just that the meaning would've changed, and I got the feeling that's not what you meant.

Crni Vuk said:
But I meant something like that. Though what kind of actions are you talking about ? Bombings, assisnations, plane hijackings ?

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20100509/NEWS08/5090355/N.-Korea-s-bullying-effective
The latest aggravation has been the sinking of a small South Korean warship, the 1,200-ton corvette Cheonan, presumably by a torpedo fired by a North Korean submarine in waters west of the Korean peninsula. In that incident on March 26, about half of the crew, 46 sailors, died.

The government of President Lee Myung-bak in Seoul has been ultra-cautious in response, asserting that a thorough investigation must be completed before action is taken. He was quoted by The Associated Press last week: "What is obvious so far is that the Cheonan did not sink due to a simple accident." The U.S. has taken a similar stance.

The Cheonan affair appears to be falling into a pattern set more than a half-century ago when North Korean agents hijacked a South Korean airliner flying from Pusan to Seoul and forced it to fly on to Pyongyang. Then North Korean MiG fighter planes attacked a U.S. RB-47 reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan but were fought off.

North Korean provocations intensified in the 1960s and continued into the 1990s. In 1968, commandos sneaked through the 4,000-meter, wide demilitarized zone that divides the peninsula and got close to the Blue House, the South Korean president's residence, in a raid to assassinate President Park Chung Hee.

About 36 hours later, North Korea captured the U.S. intelligence ship Pueblo in international waters. The crew was released a year later but North Korea still has the ship, which is shown off to tourists. Later that year, 131 commandos infiltrated South Korea for sabotage. The following year, North Korean MiG fighters shot down a U.S. EC-121 electronic intelligence plane on international waters, killing 31 Americans.

In 1974, a North Korean agent attempted to assassinate President Park Chung Hee during a public speech but instead murdered his wife, Yuk Young Soo. (This correspondent was an eyewitness to that tragedy.) Along the demilitarized zone, two American officers were killed by North Koreans wielding axes. The first of at least four North Korean tunnels burrowing under the DMZ was discovered.

A North Korean bomb intended to kill President Chun Doo Whan in Rangoon in 1983 missed him but killed 17 senior South Korean officials. Another North Korean bomb downed a South Korean airliner flying from Baghdad to Seoul in 1987, killing 115 passengers and crew. North Korea fired a missile over Japan in 1999, the first of several firings that some might consider an act of war.

Interspersed in this have been innumerable kidnappings of South Korean and Japanese citizens, unending attempts to infiltrate commandos into South Korea, and repeated discoveries of North Korean spy rings, some with 400 agents in South Korea. Similar intelligence actions have been uncovered in Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese
Most of the missing were in their 20s, although the youngest, Megumi Yokota, was 13[7] when she disappeared in November 1977, from the Japanese west coast city of Niigata. The North Korean government claims that she committed suicide on March 13, 1994.[8]

It is believed that the victims were abducted to teach Japanese language and culture at North Korean spy schools.[7] Older victims were also abducted for the purpose of obtaining their identities, but these abductees are believed to have been killed immediately.[citation needed] It is also speculated that Japanese women were abducted to have them become wives to a group of North Korea-based Japanese terrorists after a 1970 Japan Airlines hijacking, and that some may have been abducted because they happened to witness North Korean agents in Japan, which may explain Yokota's abduction.[9]
...
On September 17, 2002, Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi visited North Korea to meet North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. To facilitate normalization of relations with Japan, Kim admitted North Korea had abducted 13 Japanese citizens and issued an oral apology. He attributed the abductions to "some people who wanted to show their heroism and adventurism," and avoided taking the blame.

North Korea also provided death certificates for eight people who the North claimed were dead, but later admitted that they were forgeries in a conference in November, 2004.
Forgeries? Noooooo.
Seriously, read up about Megumi Yokota. I'm hard pressed to find a word other than "chickenshit" to describe what kind of person would approve such a program, and how this saga still drags on. There's some really good documentaries out there on her, amazing in light of the lack of cooperation on the other side.

There's also selling missiles and weapons to fun-seeking nations like Libya and Syria, but I don't know that the US has good grounds to accuse others of selling weapons to sketchy nations.

Crni Vuk said:
Public in the way for example like a clear statement from N-Korean leaders to bomb Japan with nuclear weapons for example.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/n-korea-vows-nuclear-strikes-in-latest-threat

“Those who seek to bring down the system in the (North), whether they play a main role or a passive role, will fall victim to the unprecedented nuclear strikes of the invincible army,” North Korea’s military said in comments carried by the official Korean Central News Agency.
Why look outside? The biggest damage being done to N. Korea is by their own backassed Stalinist leaders.

Invincible Army, I like that touch.

That's the thing, it's kind of silly, and pathetic and transparent when they rattle their sabers like this. Yet, they do have the means and the motivation to strike a Japan.
Crni Vuk said:
I can of course only guess what they thought.
Sure, I think part of the problem here is that we are applying our logic and rational way of thinking to a man that may or may not posses those faculties though.

As far as fear of war with the US. I think a student of the previous war and Viet Nam would note it is not America's unwillingness to rush into a war with N. Korea, it's America's unwillingness to go the full measure and cross into China. Everybody knows you don't go into a land war in Asia.

N. Korea was and probably would become a Proxy War again. If you're not going to prosecute the war beyond those national boundaries to the source there's no point in continuing.
Meaning, when the Chinese start poring across the border and you're not going to take measures to prevent that from happening, you're not really committed to winning.


edit:
TheGM said:
Shits loads of stuff that is 40 years old and a army that isn't feed as good as it was years ago.
Those T-34s ain't what they used to be.

edit X2:
Round and round we go, the pattern is familiar, except this time there's a smoking gun, so China may not be able to unconditionally support N. Korea,

U.S. slams North Korea over ship sinking
Sanctions are sought against Pyongyang, which Seoul says launched a torpedo attack.

The unusually aggressive tone toward North Korea by the U.S. and other countries followed South Korea's accusation Thursday that North Korea fired the torpedo that sank the ship, killing 46 crewmen and significantly raising the security stakes on an already tense Korean peninsula.

Citing what it called overwhelming evidence, a joint civilian-military multinational team determined that fragments and markings from a torpedo found amid the wreckage of the vessel matched that of a North Korean-made weapon already in the South's possession.

The team's report concluded that "there is no other plausible explanation" than the North's involvement.

North Korea called the probe's findings a "fabrication" and warned that retaliation would lead to "all-out war."
...
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has vowed to take "stern action," including severing most or all economic aid to the North. Lee called an emergency security meeting for Friday, pledging to augment naval forces and sensors along the disputed maritime boundary between North and South where the sinking occurred.
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
I'm not sure where the choice came in, sure they have sham, one-party elections where they win 99.98% of the vote, but Kim got to where he is because his father preceeded him, and from all accounts his son will follow him.

This is the "Lucky Sperm Club" method of selecting leaders followed by text-book Stalinism. Nobody chose anything.

If anything, Uncle Joe himself probably handpicked Kim Il Sung. He was a "details" guy like that.
As I already said. Its probably one of the worst systems. But its not OUR job to decide if it is right or wrong for N-Korea. What would be the alternative ? Start a war and invading them like the Iraq ? The potential risks of it would be pretty huge and there would be no garantue that it would change anything. It might just lead to a situation where the N-Korean population gets the idea that they are not liberated but "conquered" ~ just as like the propaganda is telling them mind you.

So as said. A state or nation has the right to be fucked up. They have somewhat to sort it out by them self at some point. And there is not much we can do as long they do not attack us. As said sovereignty.

Cimmerian Nights said:
Crni Vuk said:
Its not our job or right to decide for N-Korea what is right or wrong. As cruel as it might sound.
I think most human rights organizations would disagree would you.
And yet they dont agree to the only possible alternative. Military actions. So what IS the right decision ? To leave them alone. Or force a change with the effect of a war.

Again I am not talking about dennying humanitarian aid cause that is what many western nations do. N-Korea gets a lot of food supplies for example. Many say they would probably not even survive without it.

There is a difference between forcing political changes and trying to have some impact on a nations politic OR just sending humanitarian aid in form of food supplies for example.

But we cant just now decide sending simply UN/NATO forces in all directions now only cause there HAS to be changed something no matter the cost!. They tried that many times in Africa. Didnt helped much. Military actions are sometimes needed I am not naive and humanitarian projects dont work without soldiers and protection. But I doubt anyone of us here has the needed expertise to decide when its justified and when not. Particuiliarly in the case of N-Korea.

Cimmerian Nights said:
That's the thing, it's kind of silly, and pathetic and transparent when they rattle their sabers like this. Yet, they do have the means and the motivation to strike a Japan.
Question is how likely it is.

I mean its a similar situation like with S-Korea. A lot is just "though" talk. Particuilarly from N-Koreas side. Fact is even if (which I doubt) N-Korea would attack the south and roll over them they would have no win from it considering the attack which would follow it.

Same situation with Japan. If they strike or do anything wrong it was probably the last time N-Korea did something. The answer would be now not only coming from Japan but most important from the US and europe as well. And if N-Korea started it without provokation China would have a hard time supporting them considering how much contracts they have now with many western nations. China doesnt need N-Korea anymore. Well not from a military point of view I think.

Cimmerian Nights said:
“Those who seek to bring down the system in the (North), whether they play a main role or a passive role, will fall victim to the unprecedented nuclear strikes of the invincible army,” North Korea’s military said in comments carried by the official Korean Central News Agency.
Thats pretty interesting. But actualy it doesnt sound that strange to me. I mean important is "Those wo seek to brin down the system ...". I can only guess this is meant in relation with a direct military confrontation which N-Korea would probabnly loose (and I also guess they know that) so they of course want to let anyone know that they will do anything to kill as much enemies as possible.

The paradox situation with nuclear weapons is, everyone wants (or wanted) them, but no one wants (or wanted) to use them. Everyone with nuclear weapons is using it to threat others but no one want to be the first one to strike.

I think what happens here with Japan and N-Korea could be compared to the cold war between the US and Sovietunion. Just in a much smalle scale. And N-Korea beeing a lot less dangerous compared to Japan and its potential allies.

A bad situation for sure. But not what I see as bullying. Like said ;)
 
ut its not OUR job to decide if it is right or wrong for N-Korea. What would be the alternative ? Start a war and invading them like the Iraq ?

Actually it is a good question:

If a neighbor beats his wife and threatens to kill his children, am i not allowed to break down his door and intervene? I am not only allowed, but in some countries required to do that. by law or by their own morals.

So you tell me why shouldn't there be outside intervention?

My country would maybe still be a communist shithole if 'someone' didn't start things up in 89. And by someone i mean KGB.
 
Crni Vuk said:
As I already said. Its probably one of the worst systems. But its not OUR job to decide if it is right or wrong for N-Korea.
I might agree that it's not America's place to be arbiter and enforcer of what they deem right and wrong for other countries.
However, when you start shooting missiles over your neighbors, torpedoing ships and kidnapping foreign nationals and then turn around and ask for foreign aid, then it's not a problem that's contained to N. Korea any longer. If their dysfunction were contained to N. Korea I'm not sure anyone would care.

Crni Vuk said:
What would be the alternative ? Start a war and invading them like the Iraq ?
First of all, who is advocating war with N. Korea? Nobody is, not even in response to their warlike acts of firing missiles over Japan, or torpedoing the S. Korean sub a few weeks ago. If war happens, N. Korea has already fired the first shot.
Secondly I wouldn't use the Iraq comparison because there's no oil in N. Korea, and no Israel. Go Figure.
Also, there are many ways to deal with N. Korea without going to war, right? Sanctions, cutting off aid. Even China now will back off after the discovery of this torpedo, no way they unconditionally support N. Korea like they used to.

And yet they dont agree to the only possible alternative. Military actions. So what IS the right decision ? To leave them alone. Or force a change with the effect of a war.
I'm not sure why you think there's only two choices.
N. Korea would prefer to be left alone, to develop their nuke program without interference. The problem is, they don't leave their neighbors alone. They harass their neighbors and extort aid out of them.
If you want to be left alone, a good first step would be to stop torpedoing boats, and shooting off missiles over Japan. N. Korea is inviting this on themselves.

Let me ask you
If Chechnya fired some rockets over Russia what would happen?
If Taiwan sank a Chinese Naval ship what would happen?

Again I am not talking about dennying humanitarian aid cause that is what many western nations do.
Why would you continue to give aid to a broken regime, that probably doesn't give the aid to the people anyway while that country is carrying out violent attacks against you?

Deny aid? We're not supposed to pass judgment on how dysfunctional N. Korea is, but we have to bail them out when they can't feed their people due to that dysfunction?
I'm sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think I want my tax dollars subsidizing a Stalinist regime that uses bully tactics to extort the aid.

Fact is even if (which I doubt) N-Korea would attack the south and roll over them they would have no win from it considering the attack which would follow it.
What you just described was the beginning of the Korean War as it actually happened.

Same situation with Japan. If they strike or do anything wrong it was probably the last time N-Korea did something.
Japan's constitution prohibits offensive military operations. So that would not happen, probably why N. Korea is so emboldened to harass Japan. Their hands are tied.

I think what happens here with Japan and N-Korea could be compared to the cold war between the US and Sovietunion. Just in a much smalle scale. And N-Korea beeing a lot less dangerous compared to Japan and its potential allies.
Japan is not a military player at all.
The Cold War analogy is on, but it's between North and South.
 
Blakut said:
ut its not OUR job to decide if it is right or wrong for N-Korea. What would be the alternative ? Start a war and invading them like the Iraq ?

Actually it is a good question:

If a neighbor beats his wife and threatens to kill his children, am i not allowed to break down his door and intervene? I am not only allowed, but in some countries required to do that. by law or by their own morals.
Depends. I have heard about cases where someone did that and later the wife and the abusive husband even sued the neighbour/helper. You cant "force" help on someone. Thats not possible. If the wife doesnt realise that her husband is abusive or that she has to change her behaviour regarding him she will always return to him. Belife it or not. But I have years of experience with such people first hand. And I know someone who had some abusive father. And guess what ? Her husband is the same kind of person and she knows it but says she cant simply leave him cause she loves him ... abusive husbands / family members are usualy one of the most complicated issues you can have.

And If you have some nation that rejects democracy for example for what ever reason now you simply CANT force them to accept it (whats a forced democracy worth anyway?). People need the chance to liberate them self or at least educate them self and accept it by them self. If you just get in with some military action the population might see it as occupation. And there is usualy only one thing people see as worse then a own opressive system. And thats occupation by a foreign nation.

Blakut said:
So you tell me why shouldn't there be outside intervention?
Personaly, no. Not with how the situation is at the moment as any outside intervention would mean simply a full scale war. That simple. So if you want to risk another Iraq (curent situation) or even a new potential vietnam where you are stuck in a war like forever without winners. Then go for it. Didnt the SU had enough experience with Afghanistan ? Or was the result shown by the US in Vietnam not enough ? Seriously so many times have either European powers or US forces and other nations tried to "intervene" in the politic and actions of other nations. Sometimes with the explanation to help them. Others times simply for resources. Or to claim a colony. And how many times did it something good ?

Cimmerian Nights said:
Crni Vuk said:
As I already said. Its probably one of the worst systems. But its not OUR job to decide if it is right or wrong for N-Korea.
I might agree that it's not America's place to be arbiter and enforcer of what they deem right and wrong for other countries.
However, when you start shooting missiles over your neighbors, torpedoing ships and kidnapping foreign nationals and then turn around and ask for foreign aid, then it's not a problem that's contained to N. Korea any longer. If their dysfunction were contained to N. Korea I'm not sure anyone would care.
Yes definetly. And I dont even dissagre with you about it. Its just that I see it as a bit more complex and doubt that the smash-them to-bits-tactic is the answer to it. Of course there have always to follow measures. Either with diplomacy or even military actions if needed. The question is in which dosage the force should be applied. If you do to much you risk a full scale war which I doubt even N-Korea wants. If you do not enough you give the other side the impression that you are weak. Its a thightrope walk. How they say the balance on a knife's edge.

Cimmerian Nights said:
Same situation with Japan. If they strike or do anything wrong it was probably the last time N-Korea did something.
Japan's constitution prohibits offensive military operations. So that would not happen, probably why N. Korea is so emboldened to harass Japan. Their hands are tied.
Then its more an issue with Japan eventualy and not N-Korea, if you ask me. There are always 2 sides. The one that gets harrased. And the other one that lets it happen. Sometimes you cant do anything about it. But if Japan is not willing to do anything about it. Well. Not that I want to blame Japan. But how can you blame N-Korea for Japan to not answer in the appropiate manner ? If it proves to be such a serious issue Japan could for example stop sending any kind of support to N-Korea (like rise) and see what happens. If N-Korea really would start to shoot down with their military some Japanese unit they could take that as open form of agression and ask about help from the NATO (Japan has some relation with the NATO anyway ~ Japanese Military Joins U.S. And NATO In Horn Of Africa).
 
Seems like a kind of we are fucked if we do and fucked if we do not scenario.

Look, if we deny N. Korea aid, all the bleeding heart people in the world, including the N. Korean government and will just love to talk shit about how we are letting people sufffer and about how we need to take care of our fellow man n stuff.

If the we do provide aid, most of it probably goes to the corrupt ass government anyways and so the N. Koreans continue to starve.

In the end, countries like the U.S. cannot afford to do what is necessary and just tell N. Korea to fuck off. Hell even better, just pay off the PRC to "halt" N. Koreas nuclear program.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Yes definetly. And I dont even dissagre with you about it. Its just that I see it as a bit more complex and doubt that the smash-them to-bits-tactic is the answer to it.
Who's advocating this in N. Korea? If anything, S. Korea, Japan and the US have shown incredible restraint.

I ask you again:
If Chechnya fired some rockets over Russia what would happen?
If Taiwan sank a Chinese Naval ship what would happen?

Of course there have always to follow measures. Either with diplomacy or even military actions if needed.
The trouble with shooting missiles over your neighbors, kidnapping their people, flouting international law, thumbing your nose at the victims. They tend not to see the point of maintaining diplomatic ties with such a nation. They tend not to want to prop you up with aid.
Not many countries have embassies and diplomatic ties to N. Korea at all. They've burned almost all their bridges.

As a result, any talks with N. Korea have to be through the Six Party Talks, and even then N. Korea thumbs their nose and goes back to their pattern of broken promises and belligerence.
Five rounds of talks from 2003 to 2007 produced little net progress[1] until the third phase of the fifth round of talks, when North Korea agreed to shut down its nuclear facilities in exchange for fuel aid and steps towards the normalization of relations with the United States and Japan.[2][3] Responding angrily to the United Nations Security Council's unanimous decision on April 13, 2009 to condemn North Korea over its April 5, 2009 failed satellite launch, North Korea declared on April 14, 2009 that it would pull out of the six-party talks for good and that they would resume their nuclear enrichment program. North Korea has also expelled all nuclear inspectors from the country.

And of course, Lil Kim hates Six Party Talks, because it shows the whole world that he's not the one in charge. Kind of tarnishes all those "invincible" claims.

Cimmerian Nights said:
Same situation with Japan. If they strike or do anything wrong it was probably the last time N-Korea did something.
Japan's constitution prohibits offensive military operations. So that would not happen, probably why N. Korea is so emboldened to harass Japan. Their hands are tied.
Then its more an issue with Japan eventualy and not N-Korea, if you ask me. There are always 2 sides. The one that gets harrased. And the other one that lets it happen. Sometimes you cant do anything about it. But if Japan is not willing to do anything about it. Well. Not that I want to blame Japan. But how can you blame N-Korea for Japan to not answer in the appropiate manner ?


You're making conclusions without full knowledge of the mechanisms in place.
Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution
Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

How in the world does Japan, given those principles, engage in any meaningful repartee with N. Korea? Article 9 is completely antithetical to everything Kim stands for. And he taunts them with missiles and threats of nuking them. Nice.
 
I think the many problems in this world are present because people have refused to take action. They tip toe around the problem and let it get bigger and bigger. Then we are left to deal with twenty or so at the same time.

Crni Vuk said:
"And If you have some nation that rejects democracy for example for what ever reason now you simply CANT force them to accept it (whats a forced democracy worth anyway?). People need the chance to liberate them self or at least educate them self and accept it by them self. If you just get in with some military action the population might see it as occupation. And there is usualy only one thing people see as worse then a own opressive system. And thats occupation by a foreign nation. "
What party is the "nation" you refer to?
The government that wouldn't want things to change so they could maintain their own power or The uneducated people.

In the case of the latter..
How can people educate themselves and move towards, freedom, and democracy when they aren't educated about those kinds of ideals. The idea of democracy being something you should take yourself must be very easy for those of us in the free world to think.
But what about people who don't know anything other then what they have lived in. (I'm talking in general here no specific country or people)

If you can't read, you can't as easily understand how much joy a good book can bring can you?

The Constitution came into effect on May 3, 1947, immediately following World War II. In its text, the state formally renounces war as a sovereign right and bans settlement of international disputes through the use of force. The article also states that, to accomplish these aims, armed forces with war potential will not be maintained

According to the wiki link it looks like Japan couldn't do anything regardless of how they were threatened or attacked.
But yeah I guess that's Japan's fault for not fighting bitterly to the very end and instead surrendering in the name of peace.
 
And If you have some nation that rejects democracy for example for what ever reason now you simply CANT force them to accept it (whats a forced democracy worth anyway?). People need the chance to liberate them self or at least educate them self and accept it by them self.

Yeah, great, tell that to the people that live there. I would've been super greatfull if someone killed Ceausescu earlier, and liberate Romania from communism. Alas, it finally happened, 40 years too late.

A democracy would never start a war with another democracy. It is as simple as that. Especially if both countries are not super powers. Dictatorships are always violent, to their people and to their neighbors and thus i think it is a matter of self defence to eliminate all dictatorships from the world.
 
Who's advocating this in N. Korea?

It was more meant regarding the mindset of a few posting around here. You know comparing the situation with a abused wife and such ...

Cimmerian Nights said:
Crni Vuk said:
Yes definetly. And I dont even dissagre with you about it. Its just that I see it as a bit more complex and doubt that the smash-them to-bits-tactic is the answer to it.
... If anything, S. Korea, Japan and the US have shown incredible restraint.

I ask you again:
If Chechnya fired some rockets over Russia what would happen?
If Taiwan sank a Chinese Naval ship what would happen?
You simply do not fuck with Russia. Everyone knows that. And thus nothing like that happens. Japan cant be really compared (anymore) with Russia about that matter. The time Japan was in a role where it could deal with situations like Russia is doing today is long over. Blame WW2 for it if you want.

Though I cant say what is right or wrong about it. I mean I have no clue how the Japanese oppinion is about it really. What their population is thinking (if they see or think N-Korea is a serious threat to Japans safety) and what their politicans are thinking about it. One would probably have to be Japanese to really understand it.
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
How in the world does Japan, given those principles, engage in any meaningful repartee with N. Korea? Article 9 is completely antithetical to everything Kim stands for. And he taunts them with missiles and threats of nuking them. Nice.

The same way they maintain the JSSDF and sent a contingent to Iraq.

Circumvent the law with clever words.
 
The Iraq deployment wasn't exactly warmly received, even in a non-combat role, so I wouldn't expect more reforms that would allow them to outright strike N. Korea or anyone else anytime soon.

I mean I have no clue how the Japanese oppinion is about it really. What their population is thinking (if they see or think N-Korea is a serious threat to Japans safety) and what their politicans are thinking about it. One would probably have to be Japanese to really understand it.
I've spent a lot of time there, just got back from there a few weeks ago actually. They are talking about the S. Korean sub that went down, the old-timers know the axe both Koreas have to grind with them (I get the sense young people don't really know or care too much). They want something to be done, but military pressure is not an option.

I think Japan is very frustrated, they are always used as a scapegoat and propaganda punching bags by China and N. Korea for things that happened under a different regime 65 years ago. Japan probably feels pretty impotent. They aren't allowed offensive action, and the US still has huge bases all over Japan, the SDF not much of anything compared to the American military presence there and their expanded scope. I know they are envious of America's willingness and ability to strike at nations that engage in the petty kidnapping and harassment that N. Korea does to them. I think they are happy with the protection the US affords them, but are probably frustrated that they can't act as autonomously given that there are US bases all over. And let's be honest, the American forces in Japan and Korea are probably there more to enforce what's in America best interests, or the greater interests of the region (Taiwan, Korea), which may be at odds with what's in Japan's best interests.
They're growing sick of the American bases though. There's a lot of ugly incidents involving drunken yahoo marines and unconsenting Japanese girls that get splashed all over the newspapers. Noise, pollution etc. I wouldn't want a foreign army occupying my home either. But then I talk to some people who say they want Japan to be the 51st state.

Is there fear? I don't see people boarding up windows and buying extra water and flashlight batteries, but it's kind of unsettling to have an unstable whack-job like Kim Jong Il playing out his little dick measuring contest with missiles over your home. They are very well aware of the wacky shit Kim has pulled over the years. He is a very odd individual, with some very strange habits. Not the guy you want with his finger on the button when the missiles are pointed at you.

If there's fear to be had it, more would be in S. Korea than Japan.
 
Oh get over it fellas this is WAR. Goddamn dirty apes!

You never saw a youtube video of the RAF flattening entire cities of civilians? Or um, the atom bomb?

War, war never changes, except now the war lasts 20 years since we just use smart-pinpoint bombs. It will never end using these dinky bombs. I say we re-instate carpet bombing.

"God will recognize his own" :twisted:
 
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