Professor Danger!
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Crni Vuk said:
Why aren't you at the White House informing everyone of this.
Classified US military video depicting slaying of civilians
- Thread starter Arr0nax
- Start date
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Why aren't you at the White House informing everyone of this.
Looks like you also missunderstand the meaning of art in this relation ...Cimmerian Nights said:
Hands down, if the cartoon would really wanted to portray the whole complexity of terrorism ... it kinda would be pointless. See it as a form of caricature.
I mean are this pictures really showing the "whole" situation and complexty of the issues with Iran lately ? I mean why do actualy nations like N-Korea or Iran even strive for the nuclear energy and how do nations with nuclear energy (Europe, USA) KNOW with certitude that a nation which wants nuclear plants will not use it for domestic use in the end ? Cause they have the experience. Some believe that the ambitions for nuclear weapons by nations like Iran and N-Korea is born out of fear from US hegemonism. And I cant blame them for thinking it considering the actions of the last 10 years. If I would be Amedinejad or Kim-Jong-whats-his-name and the ruler of such a nation similar to Afghanistan or Iraq. I would be damn worried too and as well try to get my hands on the nuclear bomb. Though fear is never a good basis for peacefull relations.
Cause others with more profession, knowledge AND experience did or letz say tried that already in the past telling them that a invasion in the Iraq without any prepared plans after wining the war (which was pretty easy to know beforehand) is kinda to say it with my words "bulshit". But if they dont listen to experts, why should they to some uknown idiot like me. At least most of the european states have been inteligent enough to not step in that snake pit.Professor Danger! said:
The real thing that is surprising me actualy is, how I can see that it (terrorism) is a complex and not easy to solve no black-vs-white scenario and someone who got elected as president with at least high school education cant ... but I cant claim that I would know what people think. So maybe they all knew and realised it but its easier to sell itto the people as fighting the (d)evil. What do I know.
And that worked ... how many times in the last 60 years ? Jesus Christ. Yeah letz bomb them all. Everyone. All the time. For a better and peacefull tomorrow. Worked in the Korean War (which is still a stalemate since the 50s ...), worked With Cuba, worked with Vietnam. Oh yeah! And Somalia. Letz not forget that! They bombed the hell out of (most) of them, and now they have become better and more save places then ever before. Particularly for US citizens ... letz do some vacation in Somalia next year. They have awesome beaches.Blakut said:
Look, go back in history. See what European colonialism did for the last 300 years and why all the once powerfull european empires stoped and retreated. Exactly. Cause you can only go so far with brute force. Thats what the Europeans did in Asia, Africa and other parts of the world. Not that I want directly to compare US interventions with European colonialism. But one CANT deny that what the US is doing right now is also a war for resources and at least special interest politics. You cant tell me that you believe(d) in the smoking gun ... if that will not be seen in 50 years eventualy as the bigest political hoax of this century then I dont know what. The one of the last century was the Berlin wall ~ On June 15, 1961, First Secretary of the Socialist Unity Party and GDR State Council chairman Walter Ulbricht stated in an international press conference, "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!" (No one has the intention of erecting a wall!). It was the first time the colloquial term Mauer (wall) had been used in this context.
I am not naive. We are in some ugly world and force and military are needed even if just as deterrence and I am thankfull that while Germany had no nuclear weapons that other nations like the US, Britain and France had some. But I guess Germany shows that for a peacefull and stabile situation you dont need forces deplopyed everywhere across the globe or bombing the shit out of your enemy. Germany was forced for the last 60 years to stay inside of europe, better inside of Germany as every military action would not have been tolerated by the once victorious nations (nazi crap and all that you know). So it lead to a situation where the German Army had only the character of a defending army particularly while thinking about our beloved neighbours. But even with those we managed to arrange a peacefull coexistance. And even trade. Kinda strange how they talk often about terrorism and Germany as "potential" target here recently in the media sometimes. Strange that this started with Afghanistan. Strange as well that no one mentioned that with the intervention in the Balkan region where German troops are still present as peace keepers. And how no one is thinking here about Yugoslavian people as potential terrorists regardles that they make the second largest group of emigrants in Germany ~ and that when I imagine how big the numbers of moslems are in the yugoslavian population. I might not be a expert about politics. But I can see that many talk about what suits them and their targets right now. You always have to justify your point somehow.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Crni Vuk said:
Hmm....The Hydra.
So what your saying is we should burn the middle east down!.....again!
yeah ... kinda. Just this time for once and for all !
hmm ... no it would be just populated again after a few 100 years.
I have it. Letz do a global nuclear war or something killing all of humanity. That for SURE will prevent ANY terrorism in the future. For once and for all. Its like a tumor in your head where you chop of the head to save the body ... kinda ...
hmm ... no it would be just populated again after a few 100 years.
I have it. Letz do a global nuclear war or something killing all of humanity. That for SURE will prevent ANY terrorism in the future. For once and for all. Its like a tumor in your head where you chop of the head to save the body ... kinda ...
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
You missed all those missile tests N. Korea fired over their old friend Japan? You truly don't see the message there? OK, on the more overt side ask the Iranian ruling class how they feel about Israeli statehood, they're not very shy about their intentions.Crni Vuk said:
These folks speak pretty well for themselves, I don't need to put words in their mouth for you to understand their aims.
And you'd be willing to subject your people to famine conditions to do so? What a magnanimous leader you'd make!
N. Korea needs a scapegoat to distract it's people from how fucked up and inept their own regime is. That's paranoid totalitarianism 101. Dude, when it rains in N. Korea, they blame it on the US.
I guess you haven't be paying attention to the shakedown that N. Korea has been hustling for decades. We rattle our sabres until you send us food because we're either too inept, or more likely we intentionally starve our people to build nukes.
Chamberlain thought he was being pretty smart at the time too. I guess tell will tell...
This was a chicken vs. egg argument from the startBlakut said:
Worked pretty well against the Nips. 60 years of Democracy and counting. Still the #2 economy in the world? Ask a Japanese person how they feel about historical forced intervention, specifically from Americans like Commodore Perry and Gen. Douglas MacArthur. How far behind would Japan be without those two brutes? Ask a Japanese person how integral gaiatsu, even when at the end of a bayonet, is to their evolution as a nation.
Not that this justifies a blanket approach to all nations though, but it does have precedence.
That was a hypothetical question. The craving for the bomb is usualy born out of fear. And fear usualy leads to unlogical and irrational decisions. Cold war proved that more then once. I am just saying that I can somehow understand the idea behind the bomb.Cimmerian Nights said:
If I would be again hypotehticaly a dictator that wants to stay in charge and hold his power. Then yes. Then I would do everything for it. But I am not a dictator and nor do I have ambitions to be ever one. As the usual person I am I dont want to do such things. But as said. A dictator might have different reasons and ideas about the world around him. Not that it makes it right. But I at least somewhat try to understand it or what I would do in a similar situation.Cimmerian Nights said:
Fear of not being feared, or considered powerful maybe. But North Korea used it missiles to bully others into supporting it and its failing government. It did this whilst North Koreans are starving to death every day even now. And their government officials don't look very thin in general if you know what I mean.
It kinda seems like your trying to support//justify crimes against humanity. I think any leader who wants the majority of his people to starve, just so he can continue expensive nuclear weapons programs, should be removed from power.
Is there anything to try to understand when you know he's letting his own people starve?
On Iran's nuclear weapons programs.. hasn't their government stated upon acquiring such weapons they'd blow Israel off the face of the earth?
The fear of nuclear weapons being used on you (you as in your country) is flawed. Can we please consider how many non tactical nuclear devices have been used in wars? Too many countries already possess nuclear weapons.
The world would be better if nuclear knowledge had stayed within the U.K. Canada, and US.
(By the way when these countries striving for the advancements of their nuclear programs buy weapons grade uranium I think their real intentions are pretty clear)
It kinda seems like your trying to support//justify crimes against humanity. I think any leader who wants the majority of his people to starve, just so he can continue expensive nuclear weapons programs, should be removed from power.
Is there anything to try to understand when you know he's letting his own people starve?
On Iran's nuclear weapons programs.. hasn't their government stated upon acquiring such weapons they'd blow Israel off the face of the earth?
The fear of nuclear weapons being used on you (you as in your country) is flawed. Can we please consider how many non tactical nuclear devices have been used in wars? Too many countries already possess nuclear weapons.
The world would be better if nuclear knowledge had stayed within the U.K. Canada, and US.
(By the way when these countries striving for the advancements of their nuclear programs buy weapons grade uranium I think their real intentions are pretty clear)
Which nation was bullied by North Korea ? I am curious. I doubt that N korea is really in the situatoin to force their politics on others succesfully. Even with nukes.Sephis said:
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
So what do you call it when N. Korea fires "test" missiles over Japan and then promises not to do it anymore in exchange for rice since they can't feed their own people? Only to break the promise and repeat the tests, with threat of war if anyone intervenes in the launches which are a violation to begin with.Crni Vuk said:
This is a shakedown pure and simple.
Give me food or more missiles - that's extortion, that's bullying.
What do you call it when they kidnap Japanese civilians off the street (including school kids), lock them up in camps and do who knows what the fuck to them over a period of 20 years?
How about this South Korean ship that was just mysteriously got torpedoed last week?
What kind of relationship do you call this ?
What is it called when you provoke your neighbors with assassinations, armed violence, infiltration and kidnapping in exchange for aid if not bullying?
Clever Rat
First time out of the vault
Bullshit. The rice thing is pure propaganda.
Besides there are reasonable tensions between the two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule
Who decides who can have nuclear weapons and who can't? Personally I think there are more countries and people who think that the US are more dangerous to global security then all the other countries combined. I mean, how many wars has the US started in the last 50 years!?
As for the footage, it makes me really nervous. I wasn't aware until now how easy it is to kill people, it's like playing a game. Except it's not a game at all.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Rice, butter or guns? Call it what you want, they get tons of aid from South Korea, China, Japan and the US because they'd rather pour resources into building a better bomb than feeding their own people. They get this aid by using their nukes and hostages as bargaining chips.Clever Rat said:
North Korea is incapable of surviving without foreign aid. They use nuclear blackmail as a means to obtain it.
Clearly this justifies assassination, kidnapping, plane hijackings and extortion.
Reasonable tensions? How is it the South Koreans, a country much more rich, industrialized and capable, how do they not use this as an excuse for striking back at Japan too? South Korea is doing pretty darn good for themselves and don't need to scapegoat outsiders to distract it's people from how broken down and decrepit their back-assed nation is.
The Japanese wanked all over East Asia and built up a lot of bad blood (deservedly) during WWII, why is N. Korea the only country using that as a pretense for warlike/terrorist acts against S. Korea and Japan?
What country hasn't been unfairly muscled around by a neighbor over the last 4,000 years? Is this really a valid justification for this kind of activity?
Whoever decides to invest the resources into it, and after developing it, wields it's power in deterrence to the greatest effect.
A better question would be: Who does this at the expense of feeding his people in times of famine?
A decrepit regime who's only hope at holding onto a shred of dwindling legitimacy lies in the power nukes give it towards extortion.
Does Granada count?
Clever Rat
First time out of the vault
I seriously doubt this. And I doubt that North Korea can't feed it's population. They have the technology and they can trade for it, with China for instance.
No it does not.
You know, North Koreans chose to be isolated and backward, it's their right to do so.
South Korea is doing really good, but don't think that there are no disputes and bad blood with Japan. If they could they would be firing rockets above Japan too.
I really don't know whats going on in North Korea and if there is or isn't a famine, but what I do know is that you shouldn't trust everything you see on the news. You wouldn't believe how much shit they make up.
It is one thing to threat someone. Its another to be threaten. For N-Korea to be a REAL threat it would require more then the few rockets and other things they shoot around in exchange for food they would get anyway. I am sure youre aware about that without food supplies from the west which includes the US and Europe N-Korea would be not able to survive. And that already for decades.Cimmerian Nights said:
I doubt though thats the real reason behind their nuclear programm and missile tests. THey could could get food without a nuclear programm. Or without shooting missiles. Its not like they did not reveived supplies in the past. And that in high numbers.
Its simple fear. Like most of the time. Fear is causing unlogical ideas and usualy is the reason behind ireational thinking. That counts for individuals just as it counts for nations. See Europe and the US. I still ask my self how "rational" some of the US decisions are which have been explained by a "islamic threat" or what ever you want to call it. You can see a relation between N-Korean nuclear programms and US foreign affairs. When ever the tone from washington was more radical (see Bush and his axis of evil spech) the more serious N-Korea and other nations pushed their military programms. And what ever if we like or dont like those leaders. Its somewhat predicatable. No one who has half a brain would want to be pushed around. China and Russia have this fear as well about US hegemonism. What ever if this fear is justified or not is a different story of course. But fact is both nations have this fear. And not only they. Quite a lot of nations do.
The Russia-China Friendship and Cooperation Treaty: A Strategic Shift in Eurasia?
The 2001 Russia-China treaty covers five important areas of cooperation:
Joint actions to offset a perceived U.S. hegemonism;2
Demarcation of the two countries' long-disputed 4,300 km border;
Arms sales and technology transfers;
Energy and raw materials supply; and
The rise of militant Islam in Central Asia.
I definetly would not call what N-Korea did with Japan "bullying". Not even remotely. Its politicaly sure not nice. And it causes a lot of agression. But N-Korea has no chance against Japan. They know it, and we know it. I call it a "show". Thats it for me nothing more nothing less. Bullying in my eyes requires a dominance or form of superiority like for example the Sovietunoin over its Warsaw Pakt members for example. I cant see anything similar here between N-Korea and Japan.
I think N Korea develops nuclear missiles just to keep its regime in power. They are not afraid of an invasion and they don't want to attack anyone. They fear that some day the people will take the power from them with or without outside help. Having nuclear weapons is a position of power, against the outside world, but most importantly against all other military leaders inside the country that would like nothing than to take over. As soon as the current leader dies, of course...
Clever Rat said:
I've been to South Korea (I'm half Korean so it was kind of a cultural trip for me.) I trust the Korean people when they tell me they are dying from starvation up north (I do not speak korean, many South Koreans speak decent english.
They tell some horrible and plain scary stories about what people are currently doing to eat.
Good roadkill doesn't go to waste by the way.
North Korea is being ruled by a crazy man who would let his people suffer to further and maintain his power.
(By the way japan, sk realtions genrally are good.)
Also you know what. It is bullying when you use nuclear weapons to hold the worlds secruity hostage until you get what you want.
(SK and NK do not maintain diplomatic relations)
SK is a trade partner with japan and japan is trade partner with the USA just like SK. It would be unwise to hurt relations with the US by firing missiles over japan.
Except they aren't. They're relying on aid.Clever Rat said:
Even if they're being forced into it by an abusive regime?Clever Rat said:
No, they wouldn't. Because you see: the South Koreans can develop these weapons too. But they aren't.Clever Rat said:
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
They chose or Most Glorious Leader Kim Il Sung chose for them? How come N. Korean POWs refused repatriation after the war if that's where they wanted to be?Clever Rat said:
You're really drinking Kim's Kool-Aid if you think there's anything Democratic about the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".
I think you mean "It is one thing to threaten someone. Its another to be threatening."?Crni Vuk said:
If by nuclear threat, I agree, they know better. But how about bombings, assassinations, plane hijackings and kidnappings. You think the South or Japan aren't threatened by these actions? They most certainly are. Japan's right is using the kidnappings as a justification for reinstating their military full scale.
This is just a smoke screen they use for popular support for wars they already want for other reasons (steady oil, stable democracy in ME, Israeli interests, you put a hit out on my daddy Saddam). So the masses are galvanized by fairy tales and popular prejudices and the gov't exploits that. It is what it is.
Look dude. The North Korean gov't has failed it's people miserably. They should fear for their legitimacy. That seems to be the prime motivating factor of most of what they do, from media control, to the gulags.
It's the only real bargaining chip they bring to the table, it's the only thing that gives them prestige or gives their regime legitimacy.Blakut said: