Classified US military video depicting slaying of civilians

[Bal-Sagoth]

Well. the US military may be powerfull and all, but it's been fighting primitives with rifles for like 30 years...I mean, the enemy has no airforce, artillery, elite troops, paratroopers etc... no tanks...and when it does, they're all shitty.
If China invades the US, all it has to do is parachute 80% of it's population over the US. No guns, no weapons, armed just with knives and forks they'll eat all of the US's supplies, starving anyone to death...

I fully welcome an invasion of the United States by a foreign power. It would be interesting to see what it would be like for another military power to attempt and take over the most heavily armed nation in the world.

Especially the Southern United states, where you cannot walk into a Wal-Mart without finding someone who has military experience and finding someone who has automatic weapons (legal or otherwise) is not a chore in the slightest.

Don't doubt us HillBillies, when you grow up shooting rifles since the age of 6 and learning how to make home made explosives to clear out beaver dams you pick up a thing or two.

If youre really think orders are everything in the military and following them is your job then its a fallacy. Obviously there are officers and orders. But youre a human beeing with a brain and nothing will change that. The US military just like any other western military has to take up supordinate to the human rights which even count for the enemy. And every soldier has the right to dismiss orders if he is thinking that its unethical. If he is thinking coletaral damage is to high or if he cant exclude the killing of civilians. Maybe he will never become a general that way. But still the right is there. No officers can demand from someone the things that happend in Guantánamo or Abu-Ghuraib.

I will trust the judgment of my superiors to best utilize me in what ever way they see fit. Obviously during some situations you have to make improvisations but overall I would do everything in my power to not stray from my task and achieve the desired affect they set fourth for myself and fellow Marines.

Granted what the only time I would really deviate is if I felt there was a better way to achieve said objective. It is not my place to ask why, only to carry out.

Just that most of them are not even that religious...

I would like to see some statics that show that the majority of suicide bombers and insurgents we are fighting are not religious at all, because I call bullshit. The religious call of Jihad has an extremely strong motivator and powerful propaganda tool for disillusioned young Muslims, why do you think all the propaganda videos highlight the religious aspects of things? Sure there are reasons they are drawn but religious zealotry and propaganda strengthens it.

Also on a side note I don't believe that Japanese Kamikaze pilots were not zealots either. Hell, all of Japan was fanatically loyal to the Emperor. One of the reason the casualties for Operation Downfall was theorized to be so high was because military intelligence speculated that Japanese civilians would be rushing US troops with pitch forks and blunt objects in a "last act of defiance, death before dishonor" type deal.


And you are right about one thing though, there are a lot of Mercenaries. My friend in the Air Force was doing a ceremony loading dead Soldiers onto a plane when the guy beside him's head exploded from a sniper round, they got on the plane quick fast and in a hurry but he later found out after they found and killed the sniper that he was Eastern European, Russian if I recall correctly although don't quote me on that.

expert. But you know the Soviets have been 12 years down there. 12 years and it changed nothing.

Meh, you make the best of a situation while you are there. Take myself for example, I never fully agreed with the Iraq war. My thought on it was, "hey we are there, might as well kill as many of these Anti-Western fuckers as possible".

Personally I would have rather went after Iran or North Korea but there is always next decade for that.

The person that may as well be wearing jackboots with a pretty little armband, calling others a dipshit.

Yes, because he was acting like a dipshit and was border line trolling. He offered absolutely nothing of value to back up his point and was clearly just trying to dick around. I don't mind people who have differing view points, I enjoy debating and what not, things like his comments are just pointless and irritating however.

 

[Blakut]

Don't doubt us HillBillies, when you grow up shooting rifles since the age of 6 and learning how to make home made explosives to clear out beaver dams you pick up a thing or two.

So were the people of every country the US has ever invaded, and they were defeated. If you think armed civilians stand a chance against an organized army, you are wrong.

If a foreign power invades the US it will be up to the military to defend it. Civilians won't be able to do much against UAVs or airstrikes, just like the armed civilians in the video. What, you think it's impossible in 10 years to watch the same videos in Chinese, and the action taking place somewhere in Texas?

I fully welcome an invasion of the United States by a foreign power.

I think that's highly irrational and unpatriotic. First of all, no one should welcome an invasion of their own country, because you know, that would put the lives of your countrymen at risk.
Second of all, as a future warrior, you have to agree with Sun Tzu when he said that it is better to avoid battles than to welcome them (something along these lines).
But then again, you're going to the army to follow, not to lead. It would be interesting to talk to us again, when you get back from where they send you.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

So were the people of every country the US has ever invaded, and they were defeated. If you think armed civilians stand a chance against an organized army, you are wrong.

No, I dare say you are wrong. Do tell, when our Marines and Soldiers die in combat what is killing them, is it advanced UAVs, airstrikes, and mechanized artillery? Or is it home made bombs and accurate well placed shots from firearms that are in some cases 2-3 decades old and that I have superior versions of sitting in my closet?

A bullet from a civilians rifle will kill just as easily as one from a Soldiers. If there was an invasion of the United States the military would be the main concern but I can assure you the fact that we are the most heavily armed nation in the world would not make it any easier. Just think, door to door, house to house they would have to wonder if there was not someone waiting behind it with a 12 gauge. To say that civilians could not cause casualties in an invasion scenario is pure folly.

(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.

U.S.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL2834893820070828

I think that's highly irrational and unpatriotic. First of all, no one should welcome an invasion of their own country, because you know, that would put the lives of your countrymen at risk.
Second of all, as a future warrior, you have to agree with Sun Tzu when he said that it is better to avoid battles than to welcome them (something along these lines).
But then again, you're going to the army to follow, not to lead. It would be interesting to talk to us again, when you get back from where they send you.

A better way for me to put it would that I would like to live in an alternate reality temporarily to see how such a situation would play out. My friends who are already in the military and myself have already discussed it enough to write several novels about .

And don't worry, I will be around although it will probably be a while before I am deployed. Have to graduate Boot and then go through my MOS training.

 

[janjetina]

I'm not really a war historian, but I have read some literature by real soldiers who fought in real wars. I can mention "All Quiet On The West Front" for instance, by a true common soldier who fought in WWI.

No way dude, All Quiet on the Western Front is a work of fiction, written by someone who never faced combat.
Real soldiers who fought in real war?

Wrong.

At eighteen Remarque was conscripted into the army. On 12 June 1917 he was transferred to the Western Front, 2nd Company, Reserves, Field Depot of the 2nd Reserves Guards Division at Hem-Lenglet. On 26 June he was posted to the 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment, 2nd Company of Trench Battalion Bethe, and was stationed between Torhout and Houthulst. On 31 July he was wounded by shrapnel in the left leg, right arm and neck, and was repatriated to an army hospital in Germany where he spent the rest of the war.[1]

 

[Blakut]

No, I dare say you are wrong. Do tell, when our Marines and Soldiers die in combat what is killing them, is it advanced UAVs, airstrikes, and mechanized artillery? Or is it home made bombs and accurate well placed shots from firearms that are in some cases 2-3 decades old and that I have superior versions of sitting in my closet?

Yeah, but the US still wins. It's not like it has casualties in the millions.
What i say is, without an army, partisans may resist for some time, but in the end...they'll be defeated. You need an organized army to fight a large scale war, or to survive invasions.

In the long run, food runs out, medical supplies won't be anywhere to be found and so on. So don't rely on the civilians to make a decisive movement in case of an invasion.

My guess is that if this thing happens, homeland security or nsa or whoever does thoes things would recruit, incorporate and organize all civilians into detachments. Ohterwise... no chance.

Also, if civilians would have to face nuclear or chemical weapons... all the rifles in the world won't make a difference against nerve gas.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Yeah, but the US still wins. It's not like it has casualties in the millions.
What i say is, without an army, partisans may resist for some time, but in the end...they'll be defeated. You need an organized army to fight a large scale war, or to survive invasions.

In the long run, food runs out, medical supplies won't be anywhere to be found and so on. So don't rely on the civilians to make a decisive movement in case of an invasion.

My guess is that if this thing happens, homeland security or nsa or whoever does thoes things would recruit, incorporate and organize all civilians into detachments. Ohterwise... no chance.

Also, if civilians would have to face nuclear or chemical weapons... all the rifles in the world won't make a difference against nerve gas.

Well that does not matter regardless because obviously the military would still be doing its part, armed citizens would just be helping it along. Having to deal with the United States Military as well as an entire populace that is armed to the teeth would be a death sentence for any nation that attempted to win in conventional warfare.


Chemical,Biological, and Nuclear warfare is a moot point. If it ever came to that the United States has the ability to unleash Armageddon with our own stockpiles and then even the conventional military would be a passing thought.

Unless of course we were able to come to some terms where the use of said munitions would not spiral out of control into the use of hydrogen bombs and the like. I rather wish such things had not been invented, a lot of the notions of the thrill and glory of combat that are so built up by pride and tradition in services like the Marine Corps are done away with.

Dropping two bombs and vaporizing a several thousand people in the blink of an eye to end a war may be effective but it is kinda like cheating I think is what I am getting at.
Granted if we go that far we could also say using UAVS to drop bombs and choppers that can kill people before they even knew a chopper was there is cheap as well.

All is fair in love and war I suppose.

 

[Pope Viper]

Why the US will win ANY war...


[spoiler:dabd9ba8ec]

[/spoiler:dabd9ba8ec]

 

[Crni Vuk]

I will trust the judgment of my superiors to best utilize me in what ever way they see fit. Obviously during some situations you have to make improvisations but overall I would do everything in my power to not stray from my task and achieve the desired affect they set fourth for myself and fellow Marines.

Granted what the only time I would really deviate is if I felt there was a better way to achieve said objective. It is not my place to ask why, only to carry out.

Letz say your "superiors" would send you in some hostile area demanding from you to shoot 5-6 year old children (regardless if they are armed or not) with the statement every dead children today will not be your enemy tomorrow. Would you still do it ?

I would like to see some statics that show that the majority of suicide bombers and insurgents we are fighting are not religious at all, because I call bullshit. The religious call of Jihad has an extremely strong motivator and powerful propaganda tool for disillusioned young Muslims, why do you think all the propaganda videos highlight the religious aspects of things? Sure there are reasons they are drawn but religious zealotry and propaganda strengthens it.

I dont have any statistics and sadly I cant find the page about the Israelian psychologist anymore. But it makes sense. Though we should not mix religious motivations with zealot motivations. A "true" muslim would not suicide attack. A depressive person is more likeley to do it what ever if the motivations are religious or not. A lot of people run amok killing others and themself in the US and Europe without any religious background. Many have forms of depressions or other mental dissorders. What motivations one really has is a complex topic. To paint all attackers as simple terrorists is a easy way of polarizing the population at the homefront. Making a target or war more attractive in the way that you call everyone a mindless agressive or fanatical attacker who wants to kill your babies and steal the applepie if possible.

I mean yeah, Russian untermenschen, Arabian terrorists. All the same isnt it ? How dare we to even remotely see them as humans!

Its a bit cynical and a strange comparision but Its just to make a point.

Thing is that I really question the situation how its now. Why? Cause if I compare the recent 50 years of US foreign affairs directly to Europe and most important Germany I notice a few things. First a lot of the US actions get explained by either "freedom" or "savety". Yet many times they actualy destabilize the situation or just create more risks for their population. See Korea (which ended in the longest ever known truce ... ), Vietnam, Somalia etc.

The more the US get involved in foreign politics the higher is the potential of terrorist attacks on their own soil. Even though the Cold War ended and thus the higest potential for a total destruction of the Western world with nuclear weapons ended it seems the US is in a higher threat then ever (if that is true or not is a different story). I respect your believe in your superiours but at some point you HAVE to question their targets or at least their methods.

The Germans in particular have been forced for the last 50 years to be more or less neutral to most situations and foreign affairs. And we are when it comes to terrorism probably one of the savest places and Germany today receives a lot of respect even from many islamic nations. Though it seems that not even Britain and France face such heavy issues compared to the US despite that many of them had a lot of forces deployed in different nations at least till the 60s. But since they decided to remove most of them I think they are more save then ever.

It seems the US is a bit late in what we Europeans learned over the last 200 years. That you better care about your "own" issues and not so much about other nations.

 

[Blakut]

I would like to see some statics that show that the majority of suicide bombers and insurgents we are fighting are not religious at all, because I call bullshit. The religious call of Jihad has an extremely strong motivator and powerful propaganda tool for disillusioned young Muslims, why do you think all the propaganda videos highlight the religious aspects of things? Sure there are reasons they are drawn but religious zealotry and propaganda strengthens it.

Though we should not mix religious motivations with zealot motivations. A "true" muslim would not suicide attack. A depressive person is more likeley to do it what ever if the motivations are religious or not.

No Crni, religion fuels their actions. Depressive people just wanna die. Suicide bombers don't want to end it all, for them it is just a glorious beginning. Many suicide bombers are young people with a bright future. Some of them have been captured, and the reason they gave was religion. But not a reason as in they were fanatics, a strong inner motivation fueled by religion. They didn't even seem so extremist on the outside, extremists just talk, they don't act, these guys on the other hand calmly wanted to die, for Jihad, for Allah etc.

Saying that no true <insert> would commit a horrible act it is a very convenient way of letting them off the hook.

Muslims blew up some people.
No, those were not real muslims!
Some christians were nazis.
No, those were not real christians!

Well, doing exclusions like this will leave one to conclude that in the end there are no "true" christians, muslims or whatever.

Check out true scotsman fallacy on wikipedia to see what i mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Scotsman_fallacy

 

[Crni Vuk]

Uhm, you know many of them do suicide attacks on muslims as well. The Quaran cleary forbids suicide. Even in war or a holy war. Youre going straight to hell.

Anyway. I am sure it happens that you know all terrorists and their motivations. I am sure. Everyone of them. Look I have no doubts that for some religion are strong motivations. But that doesnt mean its for all that way. Also there are many kind of depressions. Not all end in a way where you sit on a bed in melancholia. But thats all besides the point. Point is that if you ignore the possibilty that such people might change their mind or if you dont give them at least options and alternatives to fighting you will always loose such kind of wars as we see in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

Wrong.

At eighteen Remarque was conscripted into the army. On 12 June 1917 he was transferred to the Western Front, 2nd Company, Reserves, Field Depot of the 2nd Reserves Guards Division at Hem-Lenglet. On 26 June he was posted to the 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment, 2nd Company of Trench Battalion Bethe, and was stationed between Torhout and Houthulst. On 31 July he was wounded by shrapnel in the left leg, right arm and neck, and was repatriated to an army hospital in Germany where he spent the rest of the war.[1]

I'm not sure what's been cited to support this snippet from the authoritative wikipedia that bolsters the idea that AQotWF is naught more than a work of fiction written by someone with negligible if any active role in combat. It's fiction, not memoirs.

 

[TheGM]

I refuse to comment on the behaviors of people in a situation I have never been in least I look like a complete idiot.

 

[fedaykin]

Which is fine, because we have the most powerful military in the world. We own the Air, Land, and Sea. We a limitless arsenal of the most sophisticated weapons in the world and more people wanting to man them then we even need.

Ah, and yet, you are nearly powerless against terrorism!

 

[iii]

Wrong.

At eighteen Remarque was conscripted into the army. On 12 June 1917 he was transferred to the Western Front, 2nd Company, Reserves, Field Depot of the 2nd Reserves Guards Division at Hem-Lenglet. On 26 June he was posted to the 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment, 2nd Company of Trench Battalion Bethe, and was stationed between Torhout and Houthulst. On 31 July he was wounded by shrapnel in the left leg, right arm and neck, and was repatriated to an army hospital in Germany where he spent the rest of the war.[1]

I'm not sure what's been cited to support this snippet from the authoritative wikipedia that bolsters the idea that AQotWF is naught more than a work of fiction written by someone with negligible if any active role in combat. It's fiction, not memoirs.

Its a work of fiction that describes the every day life and struggle of a German soldier in WWI accurately.

No need to split hairs.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Which is fine, because we have the most powerful military in the world. We own the Air, Land, and Sea. We a limitless arsenal of the most sophisticated weapons in the world and more people wanting to man them then we even need.

Ah, and yet, you are nearly powerless against terrorism!

Interesting is even though I have no clue if its true that it seems the US navy and infantry seems to struggle a bit with enlisted personnel.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Ah, and yet, you are nearly powerless against terrorism!

Hmm oh really? Do tell me how many successful terrorist attacks there have been against the United States after 9/11 (especially anywhere near that magnitude), despite the fact we have been bombing the ever living hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, killing thousands of the little cave rats who praise and wish to carry out such attacks.

No country can 100% safeguard against terrorism, what a silly thing to say.

Interesting is even though I have no clue if its true that it seems the US navy and infantry seems to struggle a bit with enlisted personnel.

I have absolutely no idea where you are hearing this from but it is complete rubbish. The Navy has never had recruiting issues, it is one of those "safe" branches where unless you go looking for a Rating that will see combat you will probably not find it. Not trying to downplay them, they do a very important task, but for the most part it is a safe way to pay for college, have a good job and earn a respectable living, and not live in fear of being maimed or killed.

Infantry is not an issue at all, they are not even advertising sign on bonuses anymore for it. It is by far one of the most hard Marine Corps MOS to get just because everyone wants it. Every single male Poolee at my recruiting station with the exception of a couple, initially wanted 03XX (Infantry) or 1371 (Combat Engineer).
You will be waiting months for a spot to open up if you go in and demand Infantry, they made us all pick three other MOS to ship down with our paper work and if Infantry opened up on our ship date then we were considered lucky.


The Army does not have any issues with that either, although it is much easier to get into Infantry in the Army. This has a lot to do with the size of things as the Army is huge and the Marine Corps is the smallest branch next to the Coast Guard.

 

[Blakut]

nfantry is not an issue at all, they are not even advertising sign on bonuses anymore for it. It is by far one of the most hard Marine Corps MOS to get just because everyone wants it. Every single male Poolee at my recruiting station with the exception of a couple, initially wanted 03XX (Infantry) or 1371 (Combat Engineer).

Since when did tanks stop being awesome? No one wants to drive tanks anymore, or is it a different branch?

 

[Kilus]

The only reason why the army is meeting recruitment goals now is because the economy tanked.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Since when did tanks stop being awesome? No one wants to drive tanks anymore, or is it a different branch?

Hell no, I would love tanks, it was my second choice behind 03XX. My MOS is B6 Ground Option and M1A1 Tank Crewman is one of my possible jobs, my number one choice actually.

You just have to understand that Infantry "is" the Marine Corps. All jobs in the Marine Corps are there to support the role of 0311 (Rifleman). For people wanting the full experience going 03XX is the way to go. Granted for full bragging rights you have to go a step further and do a Lat move into 0321 which is Force Recon. If you can do that then you are officially a bad ass.

The only reason why the army is meeting recruitment goals now is because the economy tanked.

Be that as it may it still does not change the fact that combat duty is being requested by more people then we even have a need for. The Marine Corps is not interested in expanding either, despite being the smallest branch it is already larger than the Armed Forces of many other significant countries.

 

[fedaykin]

Ah, and yet, you are nearly powerless against terrorism!

Hmm oh really? Do tell me how many successful terrorist attacks there have been against the United States after 9/11 (especially anywhere near that magnitude)

There have been numerous plane bombing attempts in the US since 9/11, all were stopped in time thanks purely to luck. The most recent attempt would even have succeeded were it not for a poorly built bomb. Meanwhile, many attempts have succeeded elsewhere in the world. So yeah, the war on terror has been a failure.

The only reason why the army is meeting recruitment goals now is because the economy tanked.

Be that as it may it still does not change the fact that combat duty is being requested by more people then we even have a need for.

What part of "because the economy tanked" didn't you understand?