Come and see... the live show of a war going on

[Crni Vuk]

Your implication that Western media is biased by definition is silly. As is your assumption that anyone posting from the war zone is perfectly objective and factual. Or that the moderation fallacy is anything but.

It is because they are. The media outright lied and spread missinformations with the Kosovo to make the Serbians looks worse than they have been. Make no mistake! Serbia has done a lot of shit in Kosovo, no doubts about it. But it turns out not all of the western claims have been true, most probably not even the reason for the intervention - the so called genocide on Albans in Kosovo. The Racak massacre might have been even a hoax, but there are definitely a lot of contradicting informations and many pieces point to a situation that never happend like the NATO described it or using it as justification to bomb Serbia. So please. Don't tell me the Mass media is not Biased.

That day as teenager I learned how easy it is to sway the opinion of the people on one side and how it feels to be blamed for something that you have no buisness with, just because of my Name and heritage. But painting the Serbs as evil child killing warcriminals and the UCK as the poor and honorable freedomfighters simply was the tune of that time. Turns out the reality was a bit different, and the truth as always, somewhere in the middle. The freedom fighters of yesterday have been just as well pigs. And again? Who are the guys taking the bullets? The innocent civilians of both sides.

Our mass media is definitely Biased. And selective in the release of informations. Sometimes it is already enough by just show only one side of a conflict.

Look, all I am saying is that most of us really have no clear picture what happens in the Ukraine. There are so many interests involved here that it is hard to trust anyone. Be it our politicians and our media, or the Russian ones. Everyone will paint a picture that gives his cause the most weight. Someone used the term information warefare. I would not be surprised if things would look very different in 5 or 10 years compared to now when things have finally settled down, making it save to get some real investigations going on, to interview people, on both sides and having access to more neutral sources of informations. Many of the Ukrainian leaders are questionable figures, that much is true!

Surpressing informations today is a rather normal occurance. Not just today. It was already normal in the past, the fact how the Soviets killed many polish people after their occupation of Poland in 1939 was never really paid much attention after WW2.



Is it true? I have no clue.

 

[Tagaziel]

I never said this is a "fight for freedom", I said:
"Ukrainian locals, who genuinely believe their fight for freedom."
So when you say "I disagree", do you disagree with me, or with Ukrainian locals?
Because this discussion is not about what I feel or believe, I am trying to explain what Ukrainian locals feel or believe.
I disagree with them too, you know.
I agree with you.


But that doesn't stop me from observing, and registering all the voices, because every voice matters.
If fifty million Germans suddenly decide to punish Jews and Gypsies, what would you do - dismiss them simply by disagreeing? Of course you disagree!
But you must still _regard the fact of the matter_, that this is happening, because so many people are on board with it. You aren't. I'm not. But many are!


so, YES, this is a foreign involvement. Yes, Russia is being sneaky. But ALSO yes - local Ukrainians are on board (NOT all of them, not even most of them, not even many! But local Ukrainians in general are on board. At least some thousand). ALSO yes - local, genuine separatism is being used as a tool. ALSO yes - many Ukranians believe that Russia is there to save them.


to be even clearer, cus I hate repeating myself: When you say Russia talks smoke-screens, I agree with that. Hitler lied too. But People Believed In It. When people do - people die. That's what we are seeing here. A genuine belief in a bunch of crap, but a belief that is - to the people - as real as a faith in religion. Please don't misinterpret this as me agreeing with Putin, plz plz plz

I have misinterpreted you, my apologies. I am skeptical about claims of overwhelming support for separatism among the eastern Ukrainians, especially since there's no real precedent for that to my knowledge. Ten years ago, during the Orange Revolution, the east grumbled, but it didn't grab arms and roll tanks out into the streets. Given that, I understand that a portion of the population may have separatist sentiments, but I wouldn't generalize that as majority support for the insurgency. A lot of people are caught up in it and have no real choice in the matter (especially if the alternative is getting shot and dumped in a mass grave).


It's also why I support Ukraine's fight for retaining territorial integrity. The quicker the victory comes, the sooner the rebuilding can start. The insurgency has dragged on long enough and the longer it lasts, the more actual support the insurgents will have - simply because people there would no longer have anything to do.

It is because they are. The media outright lied and spread missinformations with the Kosovo to make the Serbians looks worse than they have been. Make no mistake! Serbia has done a lot of shit in Kosovo, no doubts about it. But it turns out not all of the western claims have been true, most probably not even the reason for the intervention - the so called genocide on Albans in Kosovo. The Racak massacre might have been even a hoax, but there are definitely a lot of contradicting informations and many pieces point to a situation that never happend like the NATO described it or using it as justification to bomb Serbia. So please. Don't tell me the Mass media is not Biased.


That day as teenager I learned how easy it is to sway the opinion of the people on one side and how it feels to be blamed for something that you have no buisness with, just because of my Name and heritage. But painting the Serbs as evil child killing warcriminals and the UCK as the poor and honorable freedomfighters simply was the tune of that time. Turns out the reality was a bit different, and the truth as always, somewhere in the middle. The freedom fighters of yesterday have been just as well pigs. And again? Who are the guys taking the bullets? The innocent civilians of both sides.


Our mass media is definitely Biased. And selective in the release of informations. Sometimes it is already enough by just show only one side of a conflict.

Of course it's biased. But there are degrees of bias and dismissing all Western media as biased is ridiculous, especially when juxtaposed with an implicit claim that a supporter of the insurgency is a perfectly objective reporter who delivers nothing but the truth. Furthermore, the hundreds of available news sources make it easy to gather information and cross-reference it to get at the facts.


The Balkans are a mess, I agree. The area's been a frontier between religions, empires, influences, and M'Atra knows what else that it's hard to pull the Gordian knot apart without stepping on the toes or somebody or falling into a grave.

Look, all I am saying is that most of us really have no clear picture what happens in the Ukraine. There are so many interests involved here that it is hard to trust anyone. Be it our politicians and our media, or the Russian ones. Everyone will paint a picture that gives his cause the most weight. Someone used the term information warefare. I would not be surprised if things would look very different in 5 or 10 years compared to now when things have finally settled down, making it save to get some real investigations going on, to interview people, on both sides and having access to more neutral sources of informations. Many of the Ukrainian leaders are questionable figures, that much is true!

The problem with this line of argumentation is that it's firmly stuck in the pre-Internet mentality. There won't be a clear picture of what happens in Ukraine (JUST UKRAINE, WITHOUT "the") because reality is not a puzzle that fits together neatly. But where international news reporting was once dominated by corporations or state agencies with access to the resources necessary to provide reporting on international affairs, now the ability to report is available to anyone with access to the Internet and the means to post the information.


That's why it's possible to dig up Igor Girkin's (Strielkov, the former "defense minister" of the insurgents) statements from far right media in Russia fairly easily, or locate photographs of Russian ordnance used by the insurgents. Saying that a neutral overview of the matter will come a few years down the road is not particularly true. It took some sixty years for a synthetic look at World War II to be published (Norman Davies' Europe at War) and we're still mired in nationalist bullshit when it comes to the portrayal of the war in media. I'm not sure why that's an argument against choosing sides, though.


By the way, which Ukrainian leaders are questionable? Every country has questionable political figures.

Surpressing informations today is a rather normal occurance. Not just today. It was already normal in the past, the fact how the Soviets killed many polish people after their occupation of Poland in 1939 was never really paid much attention after WW2.

Except for being one of the principal examples of Soviet abuse of conquered people in Poland and annual honoring of the murdered men, as well as being taught in every history class when it comes to World War II and Polish experiences throughout the war, no, it was totally never paid much attention. Crni, this is a falsehood and it actually illustrates how suppressing information is difficult.


Even with the Soviet Union's whitewashing and propaganda that the murder at Katyń (and Miednoje, Charków, Bykownia) was the work of Germans, the knowledge that it was the work of the Soviets was not suppressed. My father knew the truth thanks to his family and he was far from being the exception. The revelation of NKVD documents and public admission of the murder by the collapsing Soviet Union merely confirmed this fact, at least for the Polish people.


If the most sinister, textbook example of a totalitarian state that enslaved entire nations could not cover up a mass murder committed at the height of its power, what makes you think that in the age of the Internet and unprecedented access not only to knowledge, but the tools necessary to propagate it, governments got any better at suppressing it?

Is it true? I have no clue.

Can you give me a quick summary? Dirk's mumbling a lot and my German isn't remotely good enough to understand him.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Ah, well I am not sure if I can translate all of Dirk Müllers mumbling, but to make it short he is worried about the right wing party in Ukraine and how our western politicians support some of them just because they are open to join the NATO. And we should question some of our media as at least some of them are biased. He mentions Julia Timoschenko, the gas princess, as questionable character and the Sloboda(?) as right wing party.

Well he isn't even really saying that much, he calls the Crimea an autonomous republic where Russia has one of their biggest army bases and the economical connection with Russia and the European Union, so the Russians are protecting their interests in the Crimea (more or less, he does not say if he believes this to be right or wrong, but it is understandable from a Russian point of view, they have a contract with the Crimea for decades, nuclear submarines and battle ships in their harbors and so on), with Germany receiving about 35-40% of it's Gas from Russia, and that we should be cautious about getting exploited to heavily by the US and to agitate against Russia.

In short, in his opinion it is not about democracy or human rights in Ukraine but economical and geostrategical interests, that we should get rather gas from the US than Russia and so on.

I have no clue what he knows or how trustworthy his words are, but I don't believe that our politicians or the Americans are interested in the Ukraine because of democracy or freedom or what ever. I somewhat have a hard time to believe that they changed their hearts suddenly if we consider all of the recent events, the NSA affair - where Germany is marked as a hot spot by the way ... and we are one of their closest allies. Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and so on. The US has a habit of installing puppet states in different nations which are not really about democracy either, see Pinochet, Cuba, Vietnam and many more.

I think this is also interesting:



To make this short as well. It is how it seems, again about Oil, Gas, resources and most important, the pipelines - see the map in the youtube video. Ecological and strategical interests in the Caspian see. Some of Russians main pipelines go trough Ukraine for example.

At least for me it is clear that we are not meddling around with the Ukraine because we want to see them become a democracy or because of Human rights. And I question the effectivity of our actions, if it will really help Ukraine in the end, if they will become a strong and free nation in the future, our western world is notorious for rushing in cuz freedom! an Democrazy! But it doesnt really help the common people in the end, a long history of installing puppet and satelite states, of supporting dictatorships when it helps us and to denunciate them when they are of no use for us - See Gadaffi, Saddam, Pinochet and many more.

I would not be surprised if the Ukraine will even in 10 or 15 years still the same shit-hole for its people like it is now. And we are supporting it.

There is a very high rivalry between Russia and the US here. And we Euro-tards are in the middle of it all and don't even realize it, instead of taking a neutral position, as we should, to make sure that we can communicate between the parties in Ukraine, we allow ourselves to be exploited by the US for their cause.

I just fear that we are, again, just there because it supports our cause, because we want cheap resources (by the way, one of the main targets of the NATO, to secure resources, go and Google it, its true it is in their official statements), and not to help the people, and that once we get what we want, that we will be out and Ukraine will be further away from becoming a true and free democracy. With the difference that the Americans have their pipelines, and we Europs have to deal with an angry Russia, which is one of our most important trading partners.

Except for being one of the principal examples of Soviet abuse of conquered people in Poland and annual honoring of the murdered men, as well as being taught in every history class when it comes to World War II and Polish experiences throughout the war, no, it was totally never paid much attention. Crni, this is a falsehood and it actually illustrates how suppressing information is difficult.

Maybe today, and in Poland. But in Germany? Or the West? Right after WW2? It was a non issue, buried under common interests between the West and East. No one wanted a third world war because of Katyn, if you want so, not to mention they wanted the Soviets on the same table for the trials. Albeit it was a very embarrassing situation for the Soviet union in the Nuremberg Trials. Still, it was largely ignored for decades, even after Stains death it took a very long time before Russia decided to say something about it. And it definitely is not a part of our history classes today, not in my youth at least, I learned about it after I educated my self about WW2.

Suppressing information is difficult, but not impossible. Like I said, I experienced it with Kosovo. There have been other sources available, but not many people believed in those because the people here have been busy with reading the Bild-Zeitung or believing in Joshka Fischers ramblings about Serbia, the foreign minster of Germany during that time.

Is Russia bad? They sure are. But they are not worse than the US.

By the way, which Ukrainian leaders are questionable? Every country has questionable political figures.

Sure, but if the leaders of the French Nationale or the German NPD would become prime minsters, defence minsters etc. of their nations than I am sure it would cause more than just raising a few eybrows. I mean we are really not talking about Wulf and his money here anymore but about politicians known for their racism.

 

[zegh8578]

I have misinterpreted you, my apologies. I am skeptical about claims of overwhelming support for separatism among the eastern Ukrainians, especially since there's no real precedent for that to my knowledge. Ten years ago, during the Orange Revolution, the east grumbled, but it didn't grab arms and roll tanks out into the streets. Given that, I understand that a portion of the population may have separatist sentiments, but I wouldn't generalize that as majority support for the insurgency. A lot of people are caught up in it and have no real choice in the matter (especially if the alternative is getting shot and dumped in a mass grave).


It's also why I support Ukraine's fight for retaining territorial integrity. The quicker the victory comes, the sooner the rebuilding can start. The insurgency has dragged on long enough and the longer it lasts, the more actual support the insurgents will have - simply because people there would no longer have anything to do.

Thanks:] And you pin it by saying that people are just cought up in it, it came to them, now they have to deal with it. It was more or less what I was trying to say, but with other words.

What worries me about this situation, is precisely what you say - there was a separatist movement - but it was only grumbling! It was the kind of separatist movement that exist in nearly all European countries. There's tons in Italy, several in Spain, Corsican independence movement are one of the more vocal and active ones, and have resorted to terrorism, not to mention the Basques.

To me, the war in Ukraine illustrates the ease of which a manipulative power can ignite a full flame from a simmering non-issue. It is an age old trick, but if you mix it with violence and death, you have an almost chemical reaction from it, that you can simply stand back and watch. Russia is standing back to behold their little trick, which imo begun in earnest by their taking of Crimea. Events like these get the "5th collumnists" up from their snooze. They quite frankly only need a few individuals to get things happening. Fighting recruits can fight for any reason, like you say, they're stuck in the situation. Maybe they fight just cus their friends fight. Maybe they're just overwhelmed by the sense of duty for something. There's a lot of war-glorifying going on, mainly on the pro-Russian side.

I think it was a Vice docu, one of the running reports from Ukraine early in the conflict, where it was explained that many Russian volunteers were "weekend fighters", almost as if going to Ukraine to fight was a plan for the next vacations. I cannot even begin to imagine what society would find this attractive, but then I think of Chechnya and Dagestan, and the track record Russia has of throwing soldiers to war - and that even in their own country! And then I remember that it's not so difficult to glorify and advertise foreign war-adventures (see USA)

 

[Kilus]

How much of an Ukrainian identity is there(especially in the east)?

 

[Tagaziel]

Ah, well I am not sure if I can translate all of Dirk Müllers mumbling, but to make it short he is worried about the right wing party in Ukraine and how our western politicians support some of them just because they are open to join the NATO. And we should question some of our media as at least some of them are biased. He mentions Julia Timoschenko, the gas princess, as questionable character and the Sloboda(?) as right wing party.

I've checked the date on the video and it's from March 2014. The whole panic over Right Sector and Svoboda was unfounded, as Ukrainians themselves refused to elect the extreme right. The two parties won seven seats in total, as opposed to the more moderate centre-right and Petro Poroshenko's block, which won over 300 seats - enough for a majority.


And before anyone screams "Donbass and Crimea didn't vote! Fascists! Fascists!" 27 seats in the Verkhovna Rada remain unfilled - once the insurgency surrenders, they will be, at least for Donbass.

Well he isn't even really saying that much, he calls the Crimea an autonomous republic where Russia has one of their biggest army bases and the economical connection with Russia and the European Union, so the Russians are protecting their interests in the Crimea (more or less, he does not say if he believes this to be right or wrong, but it is understandable from a Russian point of view, they have a contract with the Crimea for decades, nuclear submarines and battle ships in their harbors and so on), with Germany receiving about 35-40% of it's Gas from Russia, and that we should be cautious about getting exploited to heavily by the US and to agitate against Russia.


In short, in his opinion it is not about democracy or human rights in Ukraine but economical and geostrategical interests, that we should get rather gas from the US than Russia and so on.

Well, it was also understandable for Nazis to annex Austria from the Nazi point of view, given their interests there.


Godwin aside (no matter how warranted it is), I am perplexed as to how the discussion continues to be framed along Cold War axes. It ended 25 years ago and since then the European Union has emerged as a powerful player on the global stage. This is primarily a problem between Europe and Russia, specifically because Europe relies heavily on Russian resources and needs to diversify. Especially when the trade partner has proven itself to be an asshole.

I have no clue what he knows or how trustworthy his words are, but I don't believe that our politicians or the Americans are interested in the Ukraine because of democracy or freedom or what ever. I somewhat have a hard time to believe that they changed their hearts suddenly if we consider all of the recent events, the NSA affair - where Germany is marked as a hot spot by the way ... and we are one of their closest allies. Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and so on. The US has a habit of installing puppet states in different nations which are not really about democracy either, see Pinochet, Cuba, Vietnam and many more.


I think this is also interesting:





To make this short as well. It is how it seems, again about Oil, Gas, resources and most important, the pipelines - see the map in the youtube video. Ecological and strategical interests in the Caspian see. Some of Russians main pipelines go trough Ukraine for example.


At least for me it is clear that we are not meddling around with the Ukraine because we want to see them become a democracy or because of Human rights. And I question the effectivity of our actions, if it will really help Ukraine in the end, if they will become a strong and free nation in the future, our western world is notorious for rushing in cuz freedom! an Democrazy! But it doesnt really help the common people in the end, a long history of installing puppet and satelite states, of supporting dictatorships when it helps us and to denunciate them when they are of no use for us - See Gadaffi, Saddam, Pinochet and many more.


I would not be surprised if the Ukraine will even in 10 or 15 years still the same shit-hole for its people like it is now. And we are supporting it.


There is a very high rivalry between Russia and the US here. And we Euro-tards are in the middle of it all and don't even realize it, instead of taking a neutral position, as we should, to make sure that we can communicate between the parties in Ukraine, we allow ourselves to be exploited by the US for their cause.

Again with the Cold War framing. As the largest economy in the world, the European Union doesn't need to act as the middle man or stay neutral. In fact, not staying neutral and firmly throwing in our lot with the legitimate Ukrainian government elected in 2014 is what we should do, because otherwise we'll have to put up with an increasingly aggressive Russia, trying to undermine Europe and our economic interests.


I agree that there are strategic and economic interests of Europe in Ukraine. Which makes supporting it against Russia all the more important. I'm not sure why you think that having an economic interest in a country automatically disqualifies a country. It doesn't we have the opportunity to support European economic interests and practice what we preach. Wasn't that one of the things you held against Europe?

I just fear that we are, again, just there because it supports our cause, because we want cheap resources (by the way, one of the main targets of the NATO, to secure resources, go and Google it, its true it is in their official statements), and not to help the people, and that once we get what we want, that we will be out and Ukraine will be further away from becoming a true and free democracy. With the difference that the Americans have their pipelines, and we Europs have to deal with an angry Russia, which is one of our most important trading partners.

We aren't "in" Ukraine. There are no European troops deployed in Ukraine, no military presence, no advisors on the ground. Ukraine stands on its own. Ukraine wants to be in the European Union and NATO. Why, exactly, should we deny them the chance?


With European support, Ukraine at least has a chance to develop into a true and free democracy, to use your words. Without our support, it's guaranteed to collapse and be put under the Russian thumb again.

Maybe today, and in Poland. But in Germany? Or the West? Right after WW2? It was a non issue, buried under common interests between the West and East. No one wanted a third world war because of Katyn, if you want so, not to mention they wanted the Soviets on the same table for the trials. Albeit it was a very embarrassing situation for the Soviet union in the Nuremberg Trials. Still, it was largely ignored for decades, even after Stains death it took a very long time before Russia decided to say something about it. And it definitely is not a part of our history classes today, not in my youth at least, I learned about it after I educated my self about WW2.

You learned about it because it's not directly relevant to your country's history. Every historical curriculum is tailored to a specific country, so no wonder it was ignored in your schooling. The situation post-war is not particularly relevant, as the Soviet Union was one of the victors and it wrote history. Especially since it has enslaved Poland and her people, the people affected by the massacre.

Suppressing information is difficult, but not impossible. Like I said, I experienced it with Kosovo. There have been other sources available, but not many people believed in those because the people here have been busy with reading the Bild-Zeitung or believing in Joshka Fischers ramblings about Serbia, the foreign minster of Germany during that time.

So wait, was the information available or was it not? You are claiming you experienced information suppression, but state in the next sentence, you claimed that other sources were available. So which was it?

Is Russia bad? They sure are. But they are not worse than the US.

And? How is that even relevant?

Sure, but if the leaders of the French Nationale or the German NPD would become prime minsters, defence minsters etc. of their nations than I am sure it would cause more than just raising a few eybrows. I mean we are really not talking about Wulf and his money here anymore but about politicians known for their racism.

See above for the link. The far-right is old news. Yes, they were present in the interim government. No, they aren't a part of the new government.

Thanks:] And you pin it by saying that people are just cought up in it, it came to them, now they have to deal with it. It was more or less what I was trying to say, but with other words.


What worries me about this situation, is precisely what you say - there was a separatist movement - but it was only grumbling! It was the kind of separatist movement that exist in nearly all European countries. There's tons in Italy, several in Spain, Corsican independence movement are one of the more vocal and active ones, and have resorted to terrorism, not to mention the Basques.


To me, the war in Ukraine illustrates the ease of which a manipulative power can ignite a full flame from a simmering non-issue. It is an age old trick, but if you mix it with violence and death, you have an almost chemical reaction from it, that you can simply stand back and watch. Russia is standing back to behold their little trick, which imo begun in earnest by their taking of Crimea. Events like these get the "5th collumnists" up from their snooze. They quite frankly only need a few individuals to get things happening. Fighting recruits can fight for any reason, like you say, they're stuck in the situation. Maybe they fight just cus their friends fight. Maybe they're just overwhelmed by the sense of duty for something. There's a lot of war-glorifying going on, mainly on the pro-Russian side.


I think it was a Vice docu, one of the running reports from Ukraine early in the conflict, where it was explained that many Russian volunteers were "weekend fighters", almost as if going to Ukraine to fight was a plan for the next vacations. I cannot even begin to imagine what society would find this attractive, but then I think of Chechnya and Dagestan, and the track record Russia has of throwing soldiers to war - and that even in their own country! And then I remember that it's not so difficult to glorify and advertise foreign war-adventures (see USA)

You'll get few arguments from me with what you just wrote. Given what I know, especially the stuff released by Girkin, it seems that Russia orchestrated the insurgency from day one, using the anti-western sentiment as a jump-off point and rallying the most radical elements in the Donbass.


I think they did overplay their hand, though. The assumption probably was that Ukraine would roll over and surrender, much like what happened in Crimea. Problem is, after Crimea Ukraine realized what they were facing and fought back against the insurgency. And did a good job of it, enough that Russia is forced to prop up the insurgency with its own ordnance and men (Cargo 200 doesn't come from nowhere).


And, of course, there's the cyborgs:


http://www.rferl.org/content/donetsk-fighters-ukraine/26693593.html

How much of an Ukrainian identity is there(especially in the east)?

That's a complex question with no easy answer. Mostly a factor of their history. A history in which my country played, quite often, a very negative role.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I agree that there are strategic and economic interests of Europe in Ukraine. Which makes supporting it against Russia all the more important. I'm not sure why you think that having an economic interest in a country automatically disqualifies a country. It doesn't we have the opportunity to support European economic interests and practice what we preach. Wasn't that one of the things you held against Europe?

Because I simply believe that we will not do anything good for Ukraine, but we have to wait and see. I hope that you will be right in the end, but I fear that nothing will improve for them.

So wait, was the information available or was it not? You are claiming you experienced information suppression, but state in the next sentence, you claimed that other sources were available. So which was it?

Most of it wasn't really available in Germany, no. Not in the mass media which is what I am talking about, and I remember how they canceled a speach from a Serbian correspondent because he started to talk about the Serbian point of view.

Like I said, the Mass Media really did their best to paint the Serbians as the worst force in the world. A lot of propaganda in my opinion.

 

[Kilus]

How much of an Ukrainian identity is there(especially in the east)?

That's a complex question with no easy answer. Mostly a factor of their history. A history in which my country played, quite often, a very negative role.

Yeah, this whole thing is a European thing that is incomprehensible to people outside Europe. You guys should simplify your history. Take Australia for example: White people came with electric guitars and won the battle of the bands 1788.

 

[zegh8578]

And you speak English, aka "Standardized Tellurian"

 

[Tagaziel]

Because I simply believe that we will not do anything good for Ukraine, but we have to wait and see. I hope that you will be right in the end, but I fear that nothing will improve for them.

If we don't do anything, that is a certainty.


If we do something, there's at least a chance that something can be better.


Besides, with Russia setting the bar so low, it's going to be really hard to do something that won't be better by comparison.

Most of it wasn't really available in Germany, no. Not in the mass media which is what I am talking about, and I remember how they canceled a speach from a Serbian correspondent because he started to talk about the Serbian point of view.


Like I said, the Mass Media really did their best to paint the Serbians as the worst force in the world. A lot of propaganda in my opinion.

I'm familiar with the Yugoslav Wars in passing, but looking at it, the stuff that happened was pretty fucking vile and a lot of it was perpetrated by the dying federal republic. M'Atra, the Balkans were one giant clusterfuck in that period.

 

[zegh8578]

Technically the federal republic existed after it wasn't a federation anymore, as in, it retained its name Yugoslavia for a good period after the war, iirc.

As a kid, I only remember our teacher telling us that tadaa - lotsa new countries on the map! "ooo "

Retrospecting, reading up, the wars themselves were... fascinating in a morbid way, obviously... like... I don't think I've seen individual douchebaggery so directly connected to open warfare... like that guy w the big hair, I forget his name, Radovan? The dude went - not only into hiding - not only into hiding as a santa-claus looking "guru" - but as "the best" herbal guru, with a website and all, promoting his guru herbs o_o

 

[Crni Vuk]

Meh, Serbians are still idiots when it comes to that. 20 years after the war and many still feel like Serbia did nothing wrong, like at all. My hope goes to the young generations, the one that want to buy smartphones, wearing nice clothes and become capitalists with wealth rather than hating their neighbours, because you can't have the riches if you refuse to trade with others. It can make you crazy, the Balkan could be a very rich region, with tourism and resources, it has many beautifull places. But the nations refuse to really work together.

I'm familiar with the Yugoslav Wars in passing, but looking at it, the stuff that happened was pretty fucking vile and a lot of it was perpetrated by the dying federal republic. M'Atra, the Balkans were one giant clusterfuck in that period.

I am talking about the Kosovo 1998 though not the Yugoslavian war of 19991. The Kosovo was a conflict where the US, also with German support, bombed the shit out of Serbia without any UN mandate and for questionable reasons as the Rajak massacre is even today still an open question, some sources claim that it was an hoax, if that is true? No clue. But it is not that far away from Russian actions today, and even today the seperation of the Kosovo is seen as problem as some European nations don't accept the Kosovo as indepdend state, for obvious reasons, in fear of their minorities their claim for independence. And Serbia is doing its part to keep the Kosovo in bad shape as well. And the underlying conflict there, is still not solved. I fear the moment when all the foreign troops decide to leave that all the tension and violence will start again. How the serbian minority will deal with an Kosovo army? Or how will the government treat the Serbian minority? Many unsolved qeustions.

I feel for the Albanian and Serbian citizens there because not much that was done in 1998/99 really improved their situation today. It is a forgotten state. The people have now their freedom. But no economy. No prosperity. And I fear this will not change any time soon.

What I find interesting is that we blame the Russians today for actions that are in nature, very similar to what Germany the US and a few other nations did with the Kosovo, and other places around the world in the past. While the situation is not exactly the same, it still has some similarities, with seperatist movements and a legitimate Government. Acting without UN mandate. I am not mourning about the fact that Serbia lost the Kosovo, it is independend and Serbia has to finally accept that fact. I just murn about the fact how the situation for many people down there has not really improved and how divided Europe is about the decision.

We should be always very cautious about painting one side as purely evil or good.

Because I simply believe that we will not do anything good for Ukraine, but we have to wait and see. I hope that you will be right in the end, but I fear that nothing will improve for them.

If we don't do anything, that is a certainty.

I am not saying we should do nothing. I just question if what we do now is actually the right thing, particularly if I look at our history of supporting foreign nations, which is a lot more motivated by economical reasons than charity or true help, well which isnt really that great - see Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more.

Thankfully, I am not a politican, and sadly I do not have the education to be in a position where I could really give some advice on how to solve the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. But I know that calling for agressions, tensions or even interventions is the wrong way - I am more the left-wing here to say that. But what can you expect from nations like France, Britain, Germany and the US which are some of the biggest figures in arms trade.

All I know is that at least some of our lunatic politicans should stop to compare Putin with Hitler, like Hilary Clinton. It doesnt help the citizens in Ukraine.

 

[Gonzalez]

In this video the guy discusses the schemings behind the war. I'll make no personal remarks (like saying I support o believe what he says), just share the video and let you draw your onw conslusions.

It also raises one question nobody has been able to answer: If eastern Ukraine is really so fed up, why didn't they rebel ten years ago, when the Orange Revolution did pretty much the same thing as Euromaidan?

Easy, because it's not the same thing, and Euromaidan's Ukraine is not the same than it was 10 years before.

The orange revolution was a matter of vote counts, Euromaidan was a coup d'etat, there was no recount showing a new majority, just and ousted democratically ellected prime minister, and these guys, who proclaim themselves the forefront of the revolution, were not on the streets (they still are). Guys like those tend to provoke sentiments like these.

(by the way, these are the lyrics of what the people in Crimea was singing)

 

[Crni Vuk]

So Russia and America are equall assholes when it comes to their interests. I knew that one already years ago, infact already since the late 1990s

 

[TorontoReign]

If you want to look at any countries background you will find they have all done fucked up shit.

 

[zegh8578]

In Norway we typically giggle at the whole viking-schtick we did, as if it had the purpose of making their future descendants giggle.
At the time, however, we were destroyers of peace, ruiners of tranquility, pillagers of purity. No wonder those poor british islanders thought of us as ogres. And of course, it's 1000 years ago, nobody gets upset over - okay - FEW get upset over things a 1000 years old, but we were still major douchebags

 

[Crni Vuk]

No shit torront

The next time the Swiss government or the Leaders of Luxemburg get in a position where they can manipulate, intervene and/or invade foreign nations killing 100 000 of people, if not more for purely economic reasons based either on wrong information or simply on lies I will also blame them as well. I promise it!

I sure will never get tired to mention the Serbian concentration camps in the Yugoslavian wars, killing thousands of innocent people. Not really one of our best moments to say that. Yeah. Humans can do very bad things to each other. But since we are talking about the Ukraine, it's clear that the biggest bullies on the schoolyard are the USA and Russia. And poor Ukraine gets exploited by both of them. And we Europs are to stupid, or to corrupt to realize that, instead of blaming both of them for their shitty politics.

You know, Ukraine could be really this unique moment in European history where we as Europeans have the chance to REALLY make our own decisions. Independently from US geo strategical and economical interests and as a strong front against Russia. In favor or international laws and for humanitarian politics getting in dialog with Russia to find a way how the Crimea and Ukraine can have a status that satisfies both, Europe and Russia. I think this would help the citizens in the Ukraine the most. But this would mean that our politicians have to denunciate the fascistic movements in Ukraine, the Russian support and breach of international laws against Ukraine AND the framing of American manipulation in Ukraine, Georgia and other Nations jeopardizing the peace in Europe creating heavy tensions between Russia and the European Union based solely on economical reasons.

But I fear nothing of that will ever happen, so the conflict will continue to be a long and bloody affair in Ukraine, because neither the US nor the Russians will let go of it.



*sadly only in German:

 

[Tagaziel]

Technically the federal republic existed after it wasn't a federation anymore, as in, it retained its name Yugoslavia for a good period after the war, iirc.


As a kid, I only remember our teacher telling us that tadaa - lotsa new countries on the map! "ooo "


Retrospecting, reading up, the wars themselves were... fascinating in a morbid way, obviously... like... I don't think I've seen individual douchebaggery so directly connected to open warfare... like that guy w the big hair, I forget his name, Radovan? The dude went - not only into hiding - not only into hiding as a santa-claus looking "guru" - but as "the best" herbal guru, with a website and all, promoting his guru herbs o_o

What age were you when the Yugoslav wars were happening? I was less than ten years old and I don't think learning about the genocide, mass rape, and other horrifying events would have had a benefit for my psyche.


And yeah, Radovan Karadic. His hairdo alone was a crime against humanity.

In this video the guy discusses the schemings behind the war. I'll make no personal remarks (like saying I support o believe what he says), just share the video and let you draw your onw conslusions.

I like fantasy and political fiction, but this guy takes it too far. America manipulating Ukraine like a puppet into a war against Russia? The insurgents are a force for good, fighting for Ukraine? Stupid brown people in India couldn't win independence if Soviet tanks didn't roll into Berlin? So. Much. Bullshit.


Then again, what can I expect from a guy with what looks like Stalin's bust on his table?

Easy, because it's not the same thing, and Euromaidan's Ukraine is not the same than it was 10 years before.


The orange revolution was a matter of vote counts, Euromaidan was a coup d'etat, there was no recount showing a new majority, just and ousted democratically ellected prime minister, and these guys, who proclaim themselves the forefront of the revolution, were not on the streets (they still are). Guys like those tend to provoke sentiments like these.


(by the way, these are the lyrics of what the people in Crimea was singing)

No, Euromaidan was not a coup d'etat. No matter how much you repeat that lie, it won't become true. The genesis of both revolutions is the same, public dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs and corruption of the government.


I like how you continue to ignore reality and insinuate that neo-Nazis continue to matter in Ukraine, when just a few posts ago, this very notion was disproved, by Ukrainians themselves.

Meh, Serbians are still idiots when it comes to that. 20 years after the war and many still feel like Serbia did nothing wrong, like at all. My hope goes to the young generations, the one that want to buy smartphones, wearing nice clothes and become capitalists with wealth rather than hating their neighbours, because you can't have the riches if you refuse to trade with others. It can make you crazy, the Balkan could be a very rich region, with tourism and resources, it has many beautifull places. But the nations refuse to really work together.

Everything hinges on cooperation, yeah. But there's too much bad blood for this to be resolved anytime soon. Even on this very forum you get occassionaly glimpses of the blind rage that underlies nationalism in the Balkans. Unfortunate.

I am talking about the Kosovo 1998 though not the Yugoslavian war of 19991. The Kosovo was a conflict where the US, also with German support, bombed the shit out of Serbia without any UN mandate and for questionable reasons as the Rajak massacre is even today still an open question, some sources claim that it was an hoax, if that is true? No clue. But it is not that far away from Russian actions today, and even today the seperation of the Kosovo is seen as problem as some European nations don't accept the Kosovo as indepdend state, for obvious reasons, in fear of their minorities their claim for independence. And Serbia is doing its part to keep the Kosovo in bad shape as well. And the underlying conflict there, is still not solved. I fear the moment when all the foreign troops decide to leave that all the tension and violence will start again. How the serbian minority will deal with an Kosovo army? Or how will the government treat the Serbian minority? Many unsolved qeustions.


I feel for the Albanian and Serbian citizens there because not much that was done in 1998/99 really improved their situation today. It is a forgotten state. The people have now their freedom. But no economy. No prosperity. And I fear this will not change any time soon.


What I find interesting is that we blame the Russians today for actions that are in nature, very similar to what Germany the US and a few other nations did with the Kosovo, and other places around the world in the past. While the situation is not exactly the same, it still has some similarities, with seperatist movements and a legitimate Government. Acting without UN mandate. I am not mourning about the fact that Serbia lost the Kosovo, it is independend and Serbia has to finally accept that fact. I just murn about the fact how the situation for many people down there has not really improved and how divided Europe is about the decision.


We should be always very cautious about painting one side as purely evil or good.

As you say, this is not a simple situation. Hell, any clusterfuck of this magnitude is not going to be fixed any time soon. I wouldn't say it's really similar to what Russia does. Putin deliberately destabilizes Ukraine while openly denying that there are Russian troops or ordnance in Ukraine. He invaded Crimea to annex it and as a show of force to Ukraine and the West. NATO didn't participate in the war in Kosovo to annex it or destabilize the region. I'd say it was due to the misguided conviction that NATO has to police European frontiers and uphold human rights. Given the seven previous years of strife in former Yugoslavia (territory-wise), I can see how the Kosovo War fit into that mode of thinking.


Hell is paved with good intentions for a reason. NATO and the UN earlier acted in what they thought was the best interest of the locals. It's important to note that politics aren't purely number crunching or business-like analysis of profits and expenses. If that was the case, the Yugoslav Wars would've never happened the way they did - the West would prop up an united Yugoslavia, because a stable Balkans (even if that stability is enforced at gunpoint) supports the western markets.

I am not saying we should do nothing. I just question if what we do now is actually the right thing, particularly if I look at our history of supporting foreign nations, which is a lot more motivated by economical reasons than charity or true help, well which isnt really that great - see Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more.


Thankfully, I am not a politican, and sadly I do not have the education to be in a position where I could really give some advice on how to solve the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. But I know that calling for agressions, tensions or even interventions is the wrong way - I am more the left-wing here to say that. But what can you expect from nations like France, Britain, Germany and the US which are some of the biggest figures in arms trade.


All I know is that at least some of our lunatic politicans should stop to compare Putin with Hitler, like Hilary Clinton. It doesnt help the citizens in Ukraine.

Putin should first stop acting like Hitler and using Nazi rhetoric, to be honest. The whole "protect Russians" schtick really stinks of Sudetenland.


At this point, I believe that Ukraine should ask the United Nations for intervention and peacekeeping in the east. The longer the insurgency drags on, the worse the damage to Ukraine will be. It would also be a nice challenge for Russia - if it vetoes the peacekeeping mission, it shows it for a hostile power. If it doesn't, it will be forced to withdraw its troops and ordnance to avoid being humiliated more than it already is.


In generaly, I'm not sure why Putin continues this game. He's ruining Russia's economy for no real gain. Whatever he got through Crimea, he already lost. What's his endgame? Does he even have one?

 

[zegh8578]

What age were you when the Yugoslav wars were happening? I was less than ten years old and I don't think learning about the genocide, mass rape, and other horrifying events would have had a benefit for my psyche.

I wasn't that much older, 10-11 in 91-92, the Bosnian conflict dragged out a bit more. So, yeah, I wasn't ready for the full brunt of the politics either. The deepest connection we ever got to it was the random Bosnian refugee now and then, most of them went right from war to bullying, poor kids...

Interesting to note also, how powerful social dynamics are. Someone comes right from war and bombs, one would think some mean kids would not deter them, but those mean kids will isolate their victim in a country where they are struggling to even understand the language. Their first and only friend will be a long, patient wait away. Kids congregate on potential victims like flies on a turd, and few are as perfectly "warmed up" as some traumatized refugee.

 

[Crni Vuk]

In generaly, I'm not sure why Putin continues this game. He's ruining Russia's economy for no real gain. Whatever he got through Crimea, he already lost. What's his endgame? Does he even have one?

I believe this is more about the NATO than the Ukraine really, Ukraine is a very small player after all if we compare it to the super powers or wannabe super powers like Russia. It is a political game between the US and Russia. With the Ukraine as the big looser. Sadly. And also the Russian population and not the Russian leadership. Their propaganda is after all as effective as ours.

It is not that I don't agree, Russia has breached international law. The issue, as how I see it though, is that they fire the guns, we gave them the ammunition. I mean we really haven't been the best kind of paradigm of successful and peaceful diplomacy for the last 20 years, we pretty much showed the Russians how politics on a global scale is made. This does not justify any of their actions, but it does create a certain sense of double moral. I mean we can not dictate Russia some kind of terms if we don't follow them either. No one of us would be playing with a cheater either. Laws, particularly internation laws, can only be true for everyone, or none.

The NATO states have at least once broken international law in the past. Probably even a few more times, no clue I would have to look it up. The NATO today has evolved from a intergovernmental military alliance as collective defense against the Soviet union to an intervening military organization which was already a few times the aggressor in the past and at least in ONE case (but again, probably more) under very questionable motivations the attacker - Iraq and most probably also Afghanistan, but that is debatable. I will not hide the fact that I despise the NATO. It is a relic of the cold war. It is very undemocratic. Supported by all of our taxes. And I see it as a threat to world piece as whole.

Particularly since the NATO was responsible for some of the bloodiest conflicts in recent history. 100 000 dead Iraqis simply don't lie. And god knows how many Afghans, Syrians, Serbian and other nations lost innocent people because of their Cowboy diplomacy. And in most cases it has not improved the situation, in many cases it made it even worse, while other issues are largely ignored. The NATO is mainly concerned about securing resources, not human rights or to end dictatorships, and I feel this will be also true in Ukraine. In fact dictatorships are even supported if it serves our cause - See Gadaffi, yesterday the hero because he sold Information about the Taliban, tomorrow the evil dictator that has to be bombed.

Considering how the NATO acted for the last 20 and more importantly the last 10 years Russia is simply concerned about the NATO which is without a doubt gaining a lot of power. The cold war, undeniably, might be over, however decisions as we see them today might follow a similar thinking, by both the west and east. And that is dangerous. Again, I do NOT justify Russians actions in Ukraine, but I think it is not hard to understand why the act that way and that we have always to consider that our reactions, our decisions will create echoes. This was already the issue in the past, and it will be an issue in the future. I mean we have ignored many of Russias warnings and concerns in the past - see the rockets in Poland and other east European nations. Ukraine today is as much our fault as it is Russias. But the population, as mass, will only see Russia as the only factor. They are the ones with the military down there, but we have set the stage already years ago.

I am pretty sure if the roles would be reversed with Poland, Latvia, Czech, Romania and many more east European nations searching for Russian support, becoming member of the Russian Federation with Russia using east European nations as base for their Rockets and military forces. Than we would be also extremely cautious and distrustful about any of their statements and intentions.

Again. I see Russia as a very bad force in this conflict, however I feel that many of our politicians throw a lot of oil in the fire as well, for the west essentially the US which is pressuring Europe heavily for using sanctions against Russia instead of searching for diplomacy and dialog. Those sanctions though will in the end not hit the US economy but the European economy and the truth is, just as how Gregor Gysi said, the sanctions will not change Russias view, and in a couple of years we will cancel most of them, simply because the truth is, we need Russia just as how they need us as economical partners.