Come and see... the live show of a war going on

[Crni Vuk]

Yes Tagz, and we can either decide to live with Russia and their concerns or we can always get in conflict with them. The thing is that I don't trust our leaders more than I trust Putin when it comes to such matters. There are sadly enough examples in the past where we ring the bells of help and support for the poor fuckers around the world - see Iraq as the best example really, or the Kosovo. Yet we are not improving their situations.

Let us say the Ukraine would become tomorrow a fascistic regime which is pro US and pro European and following the anti-Russian sentient. Do you think our beloved western leaders would even hesitate to do business with them?

That is what disturbs me.

I hope that you are right Tagz but I fear that in 10 years the Ukraine will be just another nation in the list failed western aid, like Iraq/Afghanistan/Chile/Iran .... and many more.

The thing is that I feel there is more behind all of this in the Ukraine but what we see right now are only Russian aggressions while no one is really asking how it could get that far. Why do we act today? Why only now? Why in the Ukraine? Why not in other places? What is in all of this for the US/Europe to fight now. Altruistic ideas? Helping people? And I thought I am naive

They murdered enough of us already.[/B]

This is the kind of sentient that I am talking about though. There is a lot of emotions in this, with a reason, I am not going the deny the issues Poland had with Russia. Though we should not forget that the West is pretty much equal with Russia when it comes to atrocities. I am curious, what do you think Serbia has to say about the US? Or most parts of the middle east? Or Africa about Europe? Particularly France - See Rwanda and the French involvement. I am not defending Russia. I just question our (western) motivations when it comes to the Ukraine, and yeah I see my self as part of the west.

And it feels like everyone with a critical opinion about it - I am not talking about you in particular here - is silenced as pro Russian or something. I am always defending the US from idiotic anti-Americanism when it comes to Serbia, but I don't believe even for a minute that their involvement in Kosovo was because of humanitarian reasons. There was to much lying behind the curtains for that and there are to many unsolved questions. Not to mention the people down there are not living better today. Almost 15 years after it.

All I fear is that the Ukraine will see the same. And that we really should not ONLY blame Russia for that.

Poland and the Ukraine is comparing Apples with Oranges though. The Ukraine is touching on laws of nations and those are always a very complex matter. Who's right, who's wrong? I don't think that Poland is really a good example, neither historically nor geographically, you have been simply put occupied territory by the Sovietunion. A very important difference in my opinion. Matters of geographic and nationalities are never that easy, one could be for example as stupid to blame Poland for the Oder-Neisse line and demand that they give back the territories Germany lost after WW2.

There is a Russian minority in the Ukraine, and they are very vocal. There is no dennying of that, not that I say you do. But we often forget that this is after all coin with two sides. Putin is not Hitler. But I don't really believe that he is in the Ukraine for the Russian minority. The Ukraine is the ball, and the NATO and Russia are the players.

We as the west gave Russia the examples on how to deal with such matters, and that is a big part of the problem particularly on a global level - again see Kosovo, see Iraq, Afghanistan and many other examples. And now we turn around and blame Russia for things that we do as well. Literally almost on a daily basis. Such kind of politic simply cant work. It never has. It never will. Either everyone respects international laws. Or they become meaningless. Hence why I also think that we can blame our self for the issues in the Ukraine as much as we can blame Russia.

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes Tagz, and we can either decide to live with Russia and their concerns or we can always get in conflict with them. The thing is that I dont trust our leaders more than I trust Putin when it comes to such matters. There are sadly enough examples in the past where we ring the bells of help and support for the poor fuckers around the world - see Iraq as the best example really, or the Kosovo.

Why should we bow to Russia? A compromise requires both sides giving ground and Russia has been unwilling to do that. Why should it be the West that changes, rather than Russia?

Let us say the Ukraine would become tomorrow a fascistic regime which is pro US and pro European and following the anti-Russian sentient. Do you think our beloved western leaders would even hesitate to do buisness with them?

It won't. It's a moot point, because the circumstances would have to be vastly different for that to happen.

I hope that you are right Tagz but I fear that in 10 years the Ukraine will be just another nation in the list failed western aid, like Iraq/Afghanistan/Chile/Iran .... and many more.

Replace Ukraine with any of the post-Soviet states that once lay beyond the Iron Curtain. Quite informative, isn't it?

Also, Iran an example of failed western aid? THE FUCK YOU DRINKING SON.

The thing is that I feel there is more behind all of this in the Ukraine but what we see right now are only Russian agressions while no one is really asking how it could get that far. Why do we act today? Why only now? Why in the Ukraine? Why not in other places? What is in all of this for the US/Europe to fight now. Altruistic ideas? Helping people? And I thought I am naive

It got this far because of Putin's revanchism and Eurasianism.

Oh, but it does, especially when their murderers are trained on how to kill and torture in CIA schools, and their every action is aimed at thawting progress and soveraignty and making the nation an economic vassal of the US and the IMF. Their problem was they thought the US were their equals and allies and not their masters, that's when the democratic vassalage begun, and the civilian government made the same mistake. Just make sure Poland doesn't fall into the same trap out of fear to the threat in the east.

A fair point, though remember, the Soviet Union did exactly the same thing. In fact...

Oh, but it does, especially when their murderers are trained on how to kill and torture in KGB/NKVD schools, and their every action is aimed at thawting progress and soveraignty and making the nation an economic vassal of the Soviet Union and the COMECON.

 

[valcik]

Seriously guys, I think Tagaziel is right. Can't imagine how any country living under Soviet occupation for decades could willingly make the same mistake again by supporting some pro-russian movement. FFS, there's still living memory of mass deportation here in Slovakia, almost 8000 people have been taken by NKVD from Czechoslovakia and slowly murdered in Siberian gulags in the thirties. Nothing good came to us from mother Russia, no matter how hard is red propaganda trying to lie.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Who's saying support? On one side you guys (Tagz too) dismiss history because it plays no relevance when it comes to the actions of the west, particularly the NATO breaching their words and openly working against the Soviet union and Russian concerns in the past, but on the other side you mention Russian crimes against east European States, particularly those from the time of the Soviet union as proof that they can't be trusted.

What is it now guys? History yay or nay?

I am thinking about this on the idea of a possible proxy war and sending weapons to the Ukraine. A wrong sign in my opinion. In the end Russia could feel the need to Invade the Ukraine, who knows what might happen in a few years from now. And than? What will we do when that happens? Are we ready to send our soldiers down there to keep the peace and defending the Ukraine from the evil Russians? I have my doubts about that.

Everyone is loudly screaming now about the atrocities and how the Ukraine has to be defended in the name of democracy. I am curious where those voices will be when the shit hits the fan, when we are not dealing with some terrorists but someone like Russia.

It got this far because of Putin's revanchism and Eurasianism.

Which is meet by Western influence and Imperialism.

I will say this again. We are the other side of the same coin. We have to blame Russia and our selfs here.

Why should we bow to Russia? A compromise requires both sides giving ground and Russia has been unwilling to do that. Why should it be the West that changes, rather than Russia?

A compromise can not happen because we ignored Russian concerns for the last 10-15 years. We expanded into the east despite the words we gave to Russia and Gorbatschow. We have proved Russia more then once that we are NOT trustworthy partners. Before we can really get a compromise we have to show them that we are partners that you can actually work with. In other words, international laws have to be respected, by everyone. But we don't. Hence why nothing will be settled here - that is of course only my guess.

Mark my words. We Europs will bow in the end to Russia. Not because we want to, but because we have to. The USA is pretty far away. Russia is literally our neighbor. And heavy sanctions might push Russia closer to China. They will love this. And if there will be ever some piece in the Ukraine we will simply do again business with Russia like nothing ever happened.

 

[valcik]

I will say this again. We are the other side of the same coin. We have to blame Russia and our selfs here.

Heck no. Invading Crimea was solely act of Russian aggression which cannot be excused by any previous western action. Especially when Russia is one of the partners who've signed the Budapestian memorandum, where the United States and Great Britain have promised to support Ukraine and protect its territorial integrity in exchange for their nuclear arsenal disposal. Supporting Ukraine now by U.S. is not some benevolence or plotting, it's a fucking duty, sealed by a signed deal on international level.

 

[Tagaziel]

Who's saying support? On one side you guys (Tagz too) dismiss history because it plays no relevance when it comes to the actions of the west, particularly the NATO breaching their words and openly working against the Soviet union and Russian concerns in the past, but on the other side you mention Russian crimes against east European States, particularly those from the time of the Soviet union as proof that they can't be trusted.

What is it now guys? History yay or nay?

I am thinking about this on the idea of a possible proxy war and sending weapons to the Ukraine. A wrong sign in my opinion. In the end Russia could feel the need to Invade the Ukraine, who knows what might happen in a few years from now. And than? What will we do when that happens? Are we ready to send our soldiers down there to keep the peace and defending the Ukraine from the evil Russians? I have my doubts about that.

Everyone is loudly screaming now about the atrocities and how the Ukraine has to be defended in the name of democracy. I am curious where those voices will be when the shit hits the fan, when we are not dealing with some terrorists but someone like Russia.

I'm not dismissing history or saying that Russia can be trusted. I'm pointing out that Russia has a history of violence directed against Eastern European states, a history which has directed them towards the West. It isn't the West being nefarious manipulators that coerced the poor dumbfuck Poles/Latvians/Lithuanians/Estonians/Romanians/Hungarians/Ukrainians/Belarussians/etc. into siding against Russia. Russia alienated us through its actions and continues to do so today.

And yes, we should defend Ukraine directly. Just how we should station American troops in Poland and the Baltic states. Putin will think twice before attacking those if it meant shooting U.S. soldiers.

Which is meet by Western influence and Imperialism.

I will say this again. We are the other side of the same coin. We have to blame Russia and our selfs here.

Uh, no. I didn't see European divisions occupying Crimea, invading Ukraine or Georgia, forcing Russian NGOs to register as foreign agents, and so on and so forth.

Why the fuck are you so much against Europe? Yes, we did some bad shit in the past. Problem is, Russia and the Russian-dominated Soviet Empire did even worse shit and continues to this day.

A compromise can not happen because we ignored Russian concerns for the last 10-15 years. We expanded into the east despite the words we gave to Russia and Gorbatschow. We have proved Russia more then once that we are NOT trustworthy partners. Before we can really get a compromise we have to show them that we are partners that you can actually work with. In other words, international laws have to be respected, by everyone. But we don't. Hence why nothing will be settled here - that is of course only my guess.

No such promise was given. Ever. Please stop repeating Russian propaganda.

At no point was a formal promise given to Russia that the West will cordon off Eastern Europe and shoot anyone trying to get closer to it.

Mark my words. We Europs will bow in the end to Russia. Not because we want to, but because we have to. The USA is pretty far away. Russia is literally our neighbor. And heavy sanctions might push Russia closer to China. They will love this. And if there will be ever some piece in the Ukraine we will simply do again business with Russia like nothing ever happened.

We will do business with Russia if it stops behaving like an asshole. It's that simple. And no, we don't have to bow to Russia and likely won't, because Russia is a fraction of the European Union's economy. Russia needs us, but we can do without Russia.

 

[valcik]

And now, when temporary peace treaty has been signed in Minsk, this thread needs something more funny. This is a pinnacle of Soviet engineering, ladies and gentlemen. Lo and behold, the almighty Kremlincop will dominate future battlefields!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2MXAfKRw7U

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm not dismissing history or saying that Russia can be trusted. I'm pointing out that Russia has a history of violence directed against Eastern European states, a history which has directed them towards the West. It isn't the West being nefarious manipulators that coerced the poor dumbfuck Poles/Latvians/Lithuanians/Estonians/Romanians/Hungarians/Ukrainians/Belarussians/etc. into siding against Russia. Russia alienated us through its actions and continues to do so today.

Given the chance the west would have done the same thing. And I think they do the exact same thing in the Ukraine. Just not openly.

We will do business with Russia if it stops behaving like an asshole. It's that simple. And no, we don't have to bow to Russia and likely won't, because Russia is a fraction of the European Union's economy. Russia needs us, but we can do without Russia.

Mark my words. We will do business with them either way. What ever they continue to behave like "assholes" or not. Simply because we do it with all the other "assholes" around the world as well - China, Arabia and so on.

Why the fuck are you so much against Europe? Yes, we did some bad shit in the past. Problem is, Russia and the Russian-dominated Soviet Empire did even worse shit and continues to this day.

Because Europe is not better than Russia when it comes to our leaders.

 

[Tagaziel]

Given the chance the west would have done the same thing. And I think they do the exact same thing in the Ukraine. Just not openly.

Did you even spend a moment to think about all the other countries in Eastern Europe? Either we're all dumbfucks with no free will, manipulated by the powers that be or maybe, just maybe, the West really is better.

Mark my words. We will do business with them either way. What ever they continue to behave like "assholes" or not. Simply because we do it with all the other "assholes" around the world as well - China, Arabia and so on.

Like we're doing business with them now?

Because Europe is not better than Russia when it comes to our leaders.

Oh right, because wannabe tsars are dime a dozen in Europe these days. Why, der Deutsches Kaiserreich and Her Enlightened Benevolence Holy Empress Angela I is but one of many such examples!

 

[Crni Vuk]

Tagz, why are you always so extreme? I get it you don't like Russia. I understand that. A lot of my polish friends don't like them. For obvious reasons. But com on, the west beeing better? For who? It is good for us. But the rest of the world? Why don't you ask the many nations we fuck up all the time.

 

[valcik]

Did you even spend a moment to think about all the other countries in Eastern Europe? Either we're all dumbfucks with no free will, manipulated by the powers that be or maybe, just maybe, the West really is better.

You can't explain this to someone who didn't live behind the iron curtain for several decades, because he don't know how Russian "friendship" really looks like.

 

[Tagaziel]

Tagz, why are you always so extreme? I get it you don't like Russia. I understand that. A lot of my polish friends don't like them. For obvious reasons. But com on, the west beeing better? For who? It is good for us. But the rest of the world? Why don't you ask the many nations we fuck up all the time.

It's not that I don't like Russia. I like Russia. I love Russia. I love its people, its culture, its rich history (which is intertwined with ours). What I hate is the Russian government. They deserve a better class of politician than wannabe tsars. Hell, they have yet to experience actual democracy, rather than a continuation of Imperial Russia under a different name.

And yes, I believe that the West is better than Russia. Compare the quality of life, freedom, economic prosperity, development, and so on and so forth. As I wrote, you have the benefit of taking these for granted. Your level of hardship in Europe is minuscule compared to what people in less developed parts of the world experience. The very fact that you can go on an Internet forum and bitch and moan how you feel that Europe isn't any different from the rest of the world puts you in the top bracket of population worldwide as far as wealth is concerned.

Yes, the West made mistakes, lots of them. Everyone does. Not sure why that disqualifies the West.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Did you even spend a moment to think about all the other countries in Eastern Europe? Either we're all dumbfucks with no free will, manipulated by the powers that be or maybe, just maybe, the West really is better.

You can't explain this to someone who didn't live behind the iron curtain for several decades, because he don't know how Russian "friendship" really looks like.

Maybe you should try to explain some South American what US friendship really looks like.

Yes, the West made mistakes, lots of them. Everyone does. Not sure why that disqualifies the West.

Because the West is not a trustworthy partner. As Russian politician I would not trust the west. Particularly not the US government. For me personally the Kosovo is the best example for it, there are a lot of unsolved questions and they might have started the whole war based on something that most probably never happened like they described it and there are countless of such examples when it comes to foreign affairs, again the west is breaching international law when it suits them and now we are blaming Russia for doing the same. The recent NSA affair shows that you can't even trust them when you're a German, not just the information about the German citizens but including the industrial espionage which costs us billions yet there have been no political consequences. Try to think about this as someone who's outside the typical Western World. Would you feel comfortable doing business with them? The war in Iraq was based completely on lies for example. 100 000 dead Iraqis and it is very likely that the nation will stay a boot camp for terrorists for decades. As outsider I would not trust western politics.

 

[valcik]

Maybe you should try to explain some South American what US friendship really looks like.

Czechoslovakia was invaded by army counting half a billion of men in 1968 and that was just a start. Whole country has been riddled by KGB (STB) agents hunting any people who've opposed the Russian ideology; they've been imprisoned for life, tortured on a daily basis, send to forced labour in uranium mines, or simply killed. Private property including real estates in whole country has been confiscated without any exceptions. Censorship took place in press and broadcasting, not a single message could've been broadcasted or published without blessing of the party. Our borders have been enclosed completely with barbed wire fences, any person trying to escape through the border has been shot. Complete embargo for import/export plus complete informational embargo - even listening to foreign broadcasting from other countries was considered illegal act and punished by STB. Religious freedom has been oppresed. And so on.

Is this really happening in South America too? If so, that's some shocking news for me.

 

[zegh8578]

Is this really happening in South America too? If so, that's some shocking news for me.

It's not happening in Czechia or Slovakia either. Anymore. It did! And it did in South America as well. Not all of it, of course, since we're talking about a whole continent, but if you want to find anti-gringo sentiment in Latinamerica, you won't have to search very far or deep.

 

[valcik]

It's not happening in Czechia or Slovakia either. Anymore.

Of course it doesn't, because we are not under Russian occupation anymore. That's the reason why we've organised so-called velvet revolution in 1989, finally shrugged off the communist government controlled by Moscow and sided with EU immediately. And that's the point.

edit: Just for the record, I do not blame Russian people as a whole. In fact, there are many good Russian women and men decorated by Slovakian government, because they've protested against the invasion in Czechoslovakia and have been punished by Russian government for that. It's just the Russian government and foreign politics what we're discussing here, right?

 

[Gonzalez]

People in Argentina was tortured for weeks and months non stop, even reviving them when their bodies gave up after long torture sessions, and when no more info could be extracted they were sedated and thrown out of planes into the ocean while still sedated to dispose of the bodies while murdering them at the same time. Their property confiscated, their children taken away from them and given into adoption of either their captors or rich/powerful people who couldn't have kids without their families ever knowing what became of them, to this day lost grandchildren are being found and rejoined with their real families. All done in the name of anti-comunist paranoia. This happened to more than 30.000 people. The Junta that carried out these atrocities, was so indoctrinated and subordinated to the United States that they believed the United States would side with them in the Falklnads/Malvinas war, and refused to accept help from Russia and other more leftist latin american countries, like Cuba, who offered modern jet planes and submarines, in a war against the nation with the third largest fleet in the world becuse even in spite of the US betraying them and siding with the UK (and obvious thing for anyone except the junta who was blinded by their anti-comunist/pro western fanatism) because they wanted to stay in the United States good side.

 

[valcik]

It's a sick world we're living in, messed up playground of few crazy fuckers leading whole nations. This must be some sort of atavism carried from the stone ages or what. Alright, that's enough of sentimental ranting from me, guys!

 

[MutantScalper]

People in Argentina was tortured for weeks and months non stop, even reviving them when their bodies gave up after long torture sessions, and when no more info could be extracted they were sedated and thrown out of planes into the ocean while still sedated to dispose of the bodies while murdering them at the same time. Their property confiscated, their children taken away from them and given into adoption of either their captors of rich/powerful people who couldn't have kids without their families ever knowing what became of them, to this day lost grandchildren are being found and rejoined with their real families. All done in the name of anti-comunist paranoia. This happened to more than 30.000 people. The Junta that carried out these atrocities, was so indoctrinated and subordinated to the United States that they believed the United States would side with them in the Falklnads/Malvinas war, and refused to accept help from Russia and other more leftist latin american countries, like Cuba, who offered modern jet planes and submarines, in a war against the nation with the third largest fleet in the world becuse even in spite of the US betraying them and siding with the UK (and obvious thing for everyone except the junta who was blinded by their anti-comunist/pro western fanatism) they wanted to stay in the United States good side.

If only Ronnie hadn't been so enamored with Maggie, things could have taken a very different turn indeed. Interesting to hear of Soviets and Cuba's offer of help, hadn't known about that.

Tagaziel,

you wrote that Russia never has had a democratic leadership, you are probably right. Then again, I'm not sure if the former eastern block nations have had it either. Constantly they have corruption, poor economic growth and just bad management of their societies. How long is it going to take them to get their acts together? The wall fell down long ago. Sorry if I'm blunt but a lot of people are being blunt in this thread so I thought I'd join the crowd.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned China and it looks like the Americans are beginning to catch up with me.

http://time.com/3706318/russia-us-eu-conflict-ukraine/

As U.S.-E.U. solidarity on Russia tactics splinters, who is the big winner? It’s not Putin. His prize for unwavering aggression is a broken Ukraine, a broken relationship with the West and a broken economy. Instead, it’s China that stands to gain. China disagrees with the broadest Western assumption — the need for a strong international response to Russian aggression in the first place. As Russia turns East, China will drive a harder bargain in their commercial relations while taking care to ensure that relations with America and Europe continue to expand. The tactics of playing both sides will work very well for China.
And given the growing transatlantic divide, better relations with China might be more important than ever.

After everything has been said and done, Russia will just turn around and embrace China. The Bear and The Dragon, together again. Old friends.

 

[Tagaziel]

Maybe you should try to explain some South American what US friendship really looks like.

Maybe you should try it. After all, the United States acted as a deterrent preventing the Soviets from overruning Germany and the rest of Europe, subjugating it.

The key difference between South American and Eastern Europe is that the United States never created an American Empire there or set up an Iron Curtain to turn entire countries into giant gulags.

Because the West is not a trustworthy partner. As Russian politician I would not trust the west. Particularly not the US government. For me personally the Kosovo is the best example for it, there are a lot of unsolved questions and they might have started the whole war based on something that most probably never happened like they described it and there are countless of such examples when it comes to foreign affairs, again the west is breaching international law when it suits them and now we are blaming Russia for doing the same. The recent NSA affair shows that you can't even trust them when you're a German, not just the information about the German citizens but including the industrial espionage which costs us billions yet there have been no political consequences. Try to think about this as someone who's outside the typical Western World. Would you feel comfortable doing business with them? The war in Iraq was based completely on lies for example. 100 000 dead Iraqis and it is very likely that the nation will stay a boot camp for terrorists for decades. As outsider I would not trust western politics.

You do realize that you're committing the Tu quoque fallacy? What you wrote is basically a repeat of the usual Soviet answer to criticism, that the United States is no better.

Whatever shortcomings the West has are utterly and completely irrelevant as far as Russia's actions are concerned. It doesn't matter that the United States backed regime changes. It doesn't excuse or lower the culpability of Russians for the annexation of Crimea and waging war against Ukraine.

Besides, how do you expect the world to improve with your apathetic viewpoint?

you wrote that Russia never has had a democratic leadership, you are probably right. Then again, I'm not sure if the former eastern block nations have had it either. Constantly they have corruption, poor economic growth and just bad management of their societies. How long is it going to take them to get their acts together? The wall fell down long ago. Sorry if I'm blunt but a lot of people are being blunt in this thread so I thought I'd join the crowd.

Which former Eastern Bloc countries? Most of them are doing pretty well, with the Baltic States, Poland, and the Czech Republic being examples of a model transition from failed communism to a modern liberal democracy. I'm not sure what you're reading up there in Finland, but most of Eastern Europe doesn't have rampant corruption, poor economic growth, or bad management. We have our troubles, but for fuck's sake, we aren't failed states like you imply.

[quuote]Earlier in this thread I mentioned China and it looks like the Americans are beginning to catch up with me.

http://time.com/3706318/russia-us-eu-conflict-ukraine/[/quote]

A Sino-European alliance might be an interesting thing, political differences notwithstanding.

After everything has been said and done, Russia will just turn around and embrace China. The Bear and The Dragon, together again. Old friends.

Eh, more like the Dragon exploiting an aging, weak, and syphilitic bear. Russia doesn't have anything valuable to offer to China, besides its natural resources.